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Featured So Jesus is not God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Oeste, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I am a trinitarian modalist. I differ from both because I don't believe in a three person God in Heaven nor a three person God in the earth. I believe God is in three persons (types of persons).
     
  2. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    So you believe God is one person who has manifested himself in three different ways?
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Agreed, and I think that these NT names may well be a carryover of the OT's reference to "God's Spirit".
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Correct, thus I think it's reasonably clear that the authors of the NT personified the HS as if it were a person, which is a technique often used in such early Jewish writings.
     
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  5. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Oopsy, you forgot to actually continue the conversation. Why reply and ignore the actual point. You said Yahweh didn't come down and act like a man. I demonstrated the stories say he did. Moving the goal post is poor form.

    No it's what you are debating. I am debating the Trinity is false because everything in the religion is made up like all other religions.
    That's great that you are the boss of the entire world but I do not care.
    Your entire argument is a complete failure. If you go to just any other topic, say salvation, look at the WIki summary:
    Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia

    You will see massively different interpretations of the same text. So if one decides a certain word means this and others say it means that, then they cannot agree and technically both can be correct because they say their interpretation is correct.
    Trinitarians simply say God revealed his trinity nature to later believers, progressive revelation. I saw WLC debate Tovia Singer on the trinity. Tovia thought he had an airtight argument but when you listen you can see both sides just make their version the truth with interpretation. It's pointless.


    You have not even begun to provide evidence for any of this and have no answer to any scholarship showing these stories are myth.
    As I pointed out your religion is a paganized version of Judaism. While the trinity may be pagan so are savior gods.
     
  6. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

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    First, the epistle Romans was written by Lucius, the Bishop of Cyrene; he corrupted about 75%
    of the new Testament., and Lucius never understood, the spiritual nature of man, or the spiritual
    resurrection of Jesus. Even though Lucius was a very devoted follower of Jesus, he didn't understand why Christ came to Earth, and his scripture has corrupted many things in Christianity. Lucius created Lucianity, not Christianity and Romans along with almost all other epistles are a product of his fertile imaginat5ion, not Paul..
     
  7. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    There is a lot that goes on in a debate… sometimes what you think is important is just not so to others. I did not ignore your point but maybe got caught up in answering your other point. I get interruptions and other distractions sometimes or run out of time to provide full responses.

    Anyhow,
    YAHWEH does not go anywhere… YAHWEH sends his Holy Angels, or his Holy Spirit to do his Will.

    Jesus said that his Will was ‘to do the Will of HIM WHO SENT HIM’. Jesus was a ‘human’ Angel - as opposed to a ‘Spirit’ Angel from Heaven (you do know that ‘Angel’ is just a Greek word for ‘Messenger’, and a messenger is a Servant to whom he serves… and YAHWEH told that He would ‘send HIS SERVANT… on whom He would put His Holy Spirit’?). On whom did the FULLNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT fall? Hint: River Jordan… Baptism…John the Baptist…!)

    So Jesus was ANOINTED with YAHWEH’s Holy Spirit… and:
    • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“
    Our Scriptures tells us that Jesus was ‘Called by God’ to carry out the delivery of the test among about the Father and to bring salvation to mankind by the innocent death of himself (Jesus). Jesus is called ‘Christ’ because ‘Christ’ means, ‘Anointed one’.

    You then see that Jesus, having been ‘filled with the holy Spirit’, was then TESTED by temptation in the wilderness to see if he would abuse the powers that he had been endowed with. But notice that Jesus did not receive AUTHORITY to use the power of the Holy Spirit… Jesus ALWAYS ‘prayed to the Father’ before he carried out any miracles…. Prayed to GOD… prayed to YAHWEH.

    And, to that up, Jesus also told the people that the things they see him do are because the Father[‘s. Holy Spirit] is in him…! … just as David was ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit of God and was able to destroy Israel’s greatest single enemy, Goliath!
    • “So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came powerfully upon David. (1 Sam 16:13)
    Trinitarians wrongfully claim that Jesus was God which is why he could perform miracles… NO… Jesus had the POWER OF GOD to do good and miracles, etc. This is what confuses Trinitarians when they equally claim Phil 2 is saying that Jesus was ‘EQUAL TO GOD’. Any linguist - or anyone with even basic understanding - can see that if ‘A’ is EQUAL to ‘B’ then there are TWO THINGS which are NOT EACH OTHER… let alone saying that ‘A’ IS ‘B’ when ‘A’ is an object AND ‘B’ is an object!

    And, because YAHWEH is the Father, and the Father is GOD… if Trinitarians say Jesus is God then they are most certainly saying that Jesus is the Father … which they deny when they realise what their false ideology is teaching!!!

    So, show me one single place in the Christian scriptures where it says that YAHWEH, that GOD, that the Father, came anywhere… and I don’t mean ‘allegorically, metaphorically, or symbolically’… compare these two verses:
    1. “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,” (1 John 4:2)
    2. “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” (1 Tim 3:16)
    Point 1 states that spirit of God, which is the Spirit of TRUTH, acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in the Flesh… not GOD!!

    But point 2 claims the opposite.. that it was ‘GOD’ who came in the flesh! This is not just a controversy from my point of view… it’s downright HYPOCRACY!!!! A deliberate misconceived translation to fool unwary readers. It’s clear from point 1 that Jesus came as a representative OF GOD… Think … if a king sends an emissary to a far place and the emissary is called, ‘The king’…!!! How despicable, crass, and insulting is that emissary! Yet trinity is saying exactly that Jesus the servant of God IS GOD! And yet they also acknowledge that ‘God is not a servant’

    … confused… you should be!
     
    #1227 Soapy, Jul 17, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  8. tigger2

    tigger2 Active Member

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    1 Tim. 3:16
    Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God”, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he(NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who(ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?

    Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

    “A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

    A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

    “it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

    In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form, a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

    What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

    Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

    Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

    “The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

    And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

    He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

    And even trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

    “The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.
     
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  9. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

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    The concept of a Trinity is definitely False. God at Exodus 20 said there was no image in heaven, on Earth or under the seas that represented Him; the Trinity is an image and therefore it cannot reflect God. Additionally, the third & fourth century church leaders had read the account of Christ’s Baptism by John the Baptist, and it was this fictional story fabricated by Lucius, the Bishop of Cyrene, that prompted a belief that a Trinity existed. As such, Lucius then inserted the same identical fictional story into the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. John’s account only mentions Jesus and a dove; it does not mention “God, the Father,” an image that is impossible based on Exodus 20. Lucius created all the issues and all the confusion about the Trinity because he forged false stories in order to promote Jesus as the Jewish messiah, something that
    was a hard sell in the first century. Unfortunately all his sales pitches survived as bible scripture and all his ancient mischief is now generating debate due to his incoherent and inconsistent writings.


    The argument that Jesus is a man and not God is supported by Bible scripture: (A) Isaiah 53:12 where the entity mentioned in that verse (i.e. Jesus) is identified as a transgressor (i.e. a sinner), a label which could not …would not … and cannot be applied to the Lord God under any circumstance; (B) Daniel 7:13 where the anointed one (i.e. the messiah or Jesus) is identified as the Son of man (which biblically means: a human being), not God or the Son of God; and (C) Revelation 1:9-18 where Jesus Christ tells John during his spiritual visit that he is the “First and the Last,” thus identifying himself as a man since Almighty God has no beginning or ending. These three scriptural verses identify the messiah or Jesus as a man, not as God, the Lord, or the Lord thy God.

    By quoting John and first Timothy, and acknowledging in your conclusion that confusion exists in the scripture, you have supported my investigative findings. Those findings show that Lucius corrupted most of the scripture in the New Testament where he has caused massive confusion in religious belief. This confusion includes the obvious contradictions between the gospel of John and the First epistle to Timothy, an epistle that is widely acknowledged by Bible scholars as pseudepigraphical. My inquiry reveals that Lucius wrote first Timothy, not Paul because he was dead, and the expressed religious beliefs were those of Lucius, not Paul which explains the contradiction and confusion to which you allude.



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  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And where did you get this nonsense from?

    Maybe try this instead:

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold") holds that God is one God, and exists in the form of three coeternal and consubstantial persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios). In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.

    The subset of Christianity that accepts this doctrine is collectively known as Trinitarianism, while the subset that does not is referred to as Nontrinitarianism (see also Arianism). Trinitarianism contrasts with positions such as Binitarianism (one deity in two persons) and Monarchianism (no plurality of persons within God), of which Modalistic Monarchianism (one deity revealed in three modes) and Unitarianism (one deity in one person) are subsets.

    While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, the New Testament possesses a "triadic" understanding of God[6] and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas. The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians and fathers of the Church as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions...
    -- Trinity - Wikipedia
     
  11. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    The whole thing is so laughable as to be sickening… that anyone with an ounce of sense should have to go into such depth of explanation ….

    It is OBVIOUS that it cannot be ‘GOD’ who came in the flesh:
    1. Seen of Angels??? Is it not GOD who created angels…. Holy Angels ALWAYS see ‘the Face of God’… (metaphor)
    2. Received up to Heaven in Glory… ‘GOD was taken up to Heaven’????
    Anyone who thinks that God could possibly NOT have been seen by angels so as to say he was has got to be not preaching a CHRISTIAN or JEWISH doctrine.

    Anyone who thinks that GOD was received up to heaven BY GOD needs to go back to kindergarten for elementary learning.

    The reality is that it is YET ANOTHER FAILED ATTEMPT BY TRINITARIANS TO CLAIM THAT Jesus IS GOD…

    But, you know, many [trinitarian] churches STILL read the verse as ‘God came in the flesh….’!
     
  12. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

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  13. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

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  14. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

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    You bluntly asked me,” And where did you get this nonsense from?” Well, I read the Bible, and not just one version, but 60 some versions at biblegate.com, ebible.org, and other similar websites, not to mention the five different bibles I have next to me on my desk. I never found a place where God is defined as a Trinity within biblical scripture. So please advise me where in the Bible scripture you have found, read, and learned that God is a “Trinity.” Please cite for me the Book, Chapter, and Verse, so you and I can be on the same page. And by the way, I don’t want a scholar’s supposition, his conjectural thinking or a theologian’s assumptions about another theologian’s belief. Nonetheless, I read your reply and you have already admitted that the “doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament.” You apparently extracted this academically inspired, euphemistic language from Wikipedia, but in plain English, you are clearly confessing that no NT scripture exists. And in your next sentence, you respond and report to me “The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians and fathers of the Church as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions...” -- Trinity - Wikipedia

    So you call my input “nonsense” and yet, you reply to me by agreeing with almost everything I said!!! I reported that third & fourth century church leaders believed a trinity existed; for your information, they were “EARLY Christians and fathers of the church’ the same as you reported. At John 5:37, Jesus reports to the crowd about God and says” Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” If this is the case, then how could His voice be heard at the Baptism and Transfiguration. This only happens in the synoptic gospels, because Lucius fabricated the synoptic gospels and all the fictional drama scenes with God’s voice from heaven or a cloud.



    In conclusion, I only want one thing from you: Book, chapter and verse where the Trinity is clearly mentioned in Bible scripture. I bet that you will never find it, but if you do, I will eat crow.



     
  15. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

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  16. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

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    A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

    [First the epistle to the Romans was fabricated-forged by Lucius, the Bishop of Cyrene, under Paul’s name, since Paul was dead. In First Corinthians, Paul did say Jesus died for us ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. However, Paul (a Jew) was addressing messianic Jews in a Jewish synagogue of Corinth. The jewish scriptures (Isaiah and Daniel) addressed only the Jewish sins,, but Isaiah did say the Messiah would be a great “Light” to all gentiles (i.e. all non-Jews) and Daniel 7:14 foretold the reach of the messiah to all peoples and languages. Christ died only for the sins of Jews, because only they violated the first commandment by praying to other gods (a violation of God’s covenant only made with the Jews) and because the Sadducees no longer believed in the resurrection of souls and spiritual life after the grave (since man was made in image of God). These points reveal exactly why God sent Christ to die on the cross. Christ proved man did live after the grave and man truly was made in the image of God.]

    Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

    [ Christ physically died only for three days to prove man had a soul that survived physical death. The prayers of Isaiah and Daniel were answered]

    Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

    [Jesus is not, was not God; he was the anointed one of God, the Jewish messiah, the First and the Last, since the beginning of man. It is his prime directive to bring man back into the house of God. Christ knew that he would resurrect; that is the reason he arranged to have the Shroud over his body with his hands clasped over his crotch. He wanted no porn pictures for the future generations.

    If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

    {See above explanation; Christ willingly fulfilled his mission. He endured a scourging and crucifixion so man would understand he is made in the image of God and there was life after the tomb/grave ]


    Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

    [You misunderstand Mosaic Judaism and Christianity like many others since you keep talking about death as though it is final; you have done this several times which indicates you do not understand Christianity--- like almost all “Christians” the reason for Christ coming to earth is beyond their grasp. The blame for this lies with the priests and ministers who preach false dogma, because they don’t understand either.]

    This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.
    {See above ]


     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    As previously mention, the concept of the Trinity is a theological analysis and conclusion that refers to the relationship between God, Jesus , and the Holy Spirit. Key to understanding this is to understand the use of "essence" that is from the Greek and applied when the New Testament was written in Koine Greek.

    The parables of Jesus, for example, involve this process. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, did that story in reality actually happen verbatim? The word "parable" can be translated as being a "parallel story", but that still doesn't answer did that event actually happen? Generally speaking, most theologians say that it doesn't matter because if's the moral of the parable that counts-- thus its "essence".
     
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  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But you do.

    I do believe I have seen enough.
     
  19. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Jesus DIDNT ‘Come to earth’.

    He was ‘Born of the Holy Spirit’ in the manner of the first of mankind, Adam.

    The dust of the earth was the body of Adam - as was the Seed of a Woman for Jesus. Both the dust and the egg are INERT, unliving, unspirited. In both cases the Yahweh used his Holy Spirit to put the spirit of life into them to make them ‘Living Souls’.

    Hence, Jesus is called, the Last Adam, as no other of humanity will ever be created this way again.

    And Both were/are called ‘Son of God’ at times during their life… but since Adam sinned, and Jesus did not, Jesus is now the ONLY SON OF GOD.

    God required the blood of a pure sinless MAN to pay for the sin of Adam.

    It is impossible that GOD should put himself in the body of a human being, his own creation, and then DIE, to save his own creation from his creations sin.

    And, exactly what does it mean from a trinitarian to a non-trinitarian that ‘GOD’ became ‘Flesh’…

    Does it mean:
    1. ‘“Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” : God became flesh’
    2. ‘“Essence” : God became flesh’
    3. “The inseparable and immutable three-some” : God separated themselves so one of the inseparable and immutable three could be different from the other two who were equal to the separated one who was now different to the other two who remained an unadulterated couplet as God’
    4. Er…, ummm, …. we’ll get back to you on that cos we never thought anyone would ask a trinitarian that question!!
    ((The essence of trinity should mean that point 3 is the trinitarian answer but after much thought a er, ummm…, wize trinitarian would opt for point 4!!!
    An even er, ummm, WIZER trinitarian would not answer at all since all points 1 to 4 convicts the trinity ideology - condemns it as fallacy, hypocrisy, idolatry, perversity, and plain blasphemy of the God they claim to worship!!! Oh, “which God?” they are still asking, even after Moses brought them the personal name of the immutable God who never changes ….YAHWEH (‘He who is, was, and always will be’ … different description from ‘He who WAS DEAD but IS NOW ALIVE eternally’)
     
    #1239 Soapy, Jul 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God has manifested Himself in many ways. Let us say that the prophets heard God, then that was by the Father who was not in flesh and could not do what flesh can do. In Jesus God can do what flesh can do. In the Paraclete God can do what every person who lets Him can do.

    Another way God can manifest Himself is by signs such as the Red Sea parting and that belongs to the Father, Son and Paraclete.
     
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