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Featured So Jesus is not God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Oeste, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Because there are folks out there who never confront the clear teaching of scripture that Jesus is God.

    They can’t answer the OP and they certainly can’t answer how a no-good Jesus died for our sins when only God is good and Jesus is not God.

    It’s the same quandary you find yourself in but only when you hold scripture authoritative. As soon as you declare it nonsense it can mean anything you want it to mean, which of course is your default position.

    Other than that, the only other answer as to why I’d like to address the Trinity in a separate thread is this: It’ll be a lot of fun.


    Absolutely!

    I never stated, at least in this thread, that Jesus is God "because of the Trinity". What I have stated is that Jesus is God because of scripture.

    This is a nonsense Blü admits…not “the churches”.

    You have been extremely helpful by suggesting alternatives to sound doctrine like Bitheism and Psilanthropism. You’ve even demonstrated how adopting these positions can lead to scriptural skepticism.

    Fantastic claims require even more fantastic evidence Blu. Arianism is still on the outside looking in.

    Wouldn't that be a lot like saying “Have you noticed how pagan Christianity is? Virtually all pagan religions had notions of the soul, God, demons, angels, good, bad, ascension, descension, birth and death."?
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I prefer saying that "Jesus is of God" not "Jesus is God" because the latter can be quite confusing.​
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I don't have to confront them. Jesus denied it repeatedly in direct speech. The NT does NOT teach that Jesus is God. That idea does not exist in the 1st century CE, and to claim that it does is a serious anachronism, an error by three centuries.
    Jesus is the sacrifice to God on the model of sacrifices at the Jerusalem Temple. It's up to God whether he accepts it. Since the story says the ending was planned from the beginning, it's clear that the condition God set is fulfilled. No problem.
    You grossly misrepresent my position here. Let me clarify yet again:

    a. There is no Trinity doctrine in scripture. On the exact contrary there are repeated express denials attributed to Jesus in direct speech that he is NOT God.

    b. I didn't declare that the Trinity doctrine was a nonsense. The churches did that. Despite my repeated invitations to you to explain why they're wrong, you haven't done so.

    c. The Trinity doctrine is indeed a nonsense, and you keep trying to postpone explaining it (another thread, another place and time, anything but here where it's relevant).

    So don't hold back. Explain why the Trinity doctrine is NOT a nonsense, how it is NOT incoherent, why the churches are so mistaken about their own teaching.
    Then you already know you're wrong, since no scripture supports that claim, and all of Jesus' denials that he's God that I've mentioned come straight from scripture.
    We'll see that picture more clearly when you finish ducking and weaving and give a clear coherent account of the Trinity doctrine such that it makes sense.

    Until then, the churches and I agree that it doesn't make sense ─ can't be shown by unaided human reason apart from revelation and can't be demonstrated by reason once revealed, as they put it.
    I think the crossover of Jewish and Greek is most informative. As for the details, as I may have mentioned earlier, in Mark Jesus is the son of God by adoption on the model of Psalm 2:7 (as directly affirmed by Acts 13:33) and in Luke in particular and Matthew in general Jesus is the son of God in the Greek manner, by divine insemination. But we digress (mea culpa).
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does! Quite clearly; it teaches that Jesus is God. What we have here is a case of an atheist assuming things. You're assuming that they did not believe Jesus is God because it suits your atheistic point of view to believe that as a fact.
     
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  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Of course it does. You’ve even helped us verify this through scripture by proffering alternative explanations, none of which held up, but at least you've hung in there long after our Arian friends fled the scene. I am appreciative of this.

    Is your argument the earth did not become oval until 1492?

    Oeste said:

    they certainly can’t answer how a no-good Jesus died for our sins when only God is good and Jesus is not God.

    We agree on this at least.

    Here’s the problem…God doesn’t accept blemished sacrifices for our sins. Otherwise someone could just grab poor Harry, the odd. depressed guy on the corner no one gets along with, haul him before the altar and make atonement by convincing Harrry to sacrifice his life for the sins of our own. (Leviticus 22:20-25; Exodus 12:15)

    There is a big, huge, insurmountable problem as outlined above. If Jesus ain't good then Jesus cannot sacrifice himself for our sins.
    You're in the same quandary our Arian friends found themselves from the outset. It's just taken you longer to get here.

    In other words, Jesus had to be good and only God is good. The conclusion here is inescapable.

    This is simply a restatement of your unsubstantiated argument.

    Of course you declared the Trinity doctrine nonsense…along with Islam and Arianism, but then you attempted to support such an outlandish position with a misinterpretation of the word mystery.

    See your 1st sentence in “b.” above. For a declaration you claim you don’t declare, this sounds awfully like a declaration. :)

    It’ll be much more relevant on the other thread. The important thing here is to realize Jesus is God and this Christology is based solidly on scripture and not from whole cloth magically spun in the 3rd or 4th century AD.

    Had the Arian heresy not been so slow out the gate the Trinity doctrine would have appeared sooner.

    I’m not holding back, you are. Please explain how a blemished sacrifice can be made for the sins of mankind.

    Nowhere in scripture does it say God will accept a blemished sacrifice as atonement for sin, yet that’s exactly what you claim happened.


    Sure I’ll explain…just on another thread. Right now we’re explaining why scripture shows Jesus is God, all without going into discussion of the Trinity

    As to ..."why the churches are so mistaken about their own teaching." I would have to suppose you are referring to Arian style churches.

    Jesus is God and was God long before the Trinity doctrine nailed the Arian heresy into the dusty archives of history. We expect folk will


    Oeste said:

    I never stated, at least in this thread, that Jesus is God "because of the Trinity". What I have stated is that Jesus is God because of scripture.

    That’s nonsense. I could fill the page with scripture showing Jesus is God, but that would be more “proof-texting”, and I’m really trying to grab a little more mileage out of your assertions.

    A mystery is simply a revealed truth in scripture. God is far beyond the grasp of human reason (Isaiah 55:8-9). This separates the Christian God of scripture from the pagan gods or demigods you’re familiar with and understand completely.

    Secondly, I find your notion that anything beyond the grasp of human reason is “nonsense” as simply an unsupported premise where we may exercise in vain indulgence. The vanity comes in when we refuse to admit there are things we’ll never understand.

    Oeste said:

    This is a nonsense Blü admits…not “the churches”.

    We'll see that picture more clearly when you finish ducking and weaving and give a clear coherent account of the Trinity doctrine such that it makes sense.

    Who are the “we” in your “we’ll”? Are you referring to Arians, atheists, Muslims or someone else?

    Remember, the vast majority of Christians already believe in the Trinity. The Arians and the Atheists had their turn and failed miserably. The burden for compelling or convincing evidence is not on me but you…as it has been for the last two millinea.

    But perhaps you can stop ducking and weaving and

    1: answer the OP:

    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.Romans 5:8

    According to the Arian mindset, this should read “But Christ demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, he died for us”. Why doesn’t it?

    Why do you call me good? Only God is good. (Mark 10:18)​

    2. If Jesus is not God, make a coherent, consistent scriptural argument as to how a no good, blemished Jesus dies for the sins of mankind.

    It simply can't be done.

    I’m not sure who this person is that speaks for all Trinitarians is, but it should be Jesus or an apostle. However I do understand why you think it’s nonsense…and the rationale is from an apostle. (2 Corinthians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 1:18; Matthew 11:25)
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Then let's run the figures. Here are fifteen quotes, attributed to Jesus in direct speech, where he says he's not God.

    Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

    Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

    John 5:19the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

    John 5:30I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

    John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

    Here's the deal.

    Half of fifteen is 7.5. So come back to me with eight quotes which the NT attributes to Jesus in direct speech where he claims he's God, and I'll admit you win. In other words, back your case just about half as well as I back mine, and I'll hand you the palm.

    I don't know of even one so I look forward to your reply.
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    [/quote] Now you're getting perilously close to dishonesty.

    I have provided 17 quotes attributed in direct speech to Jesus and each of them entirely incompatible with Jesus being God.

    You have produced no quote attributed to Jesus at all in which he claims to be God.

    Answer this question without evasion: do you claim to have such a quote?

    If you do, set it, or them, out here.

    If not, simply say so without pretence.

    Nor have you explained why the god of the Jews, whom Jesus, a circumcised Jew, said he worshiped, and who is unquestionably a monogod (ask any Jew if you're in doubt), would suddenly be found, three centuries or more after Jesus' death, to be tripartite.

    Nor have you explained why the Trinitarian churches call the Trinity doctrine 'a mystery in the strict sense' ie that it can neither be revealed by reason except by revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason once revealed.

    Nor have you explained what the Trinity doctrine says that is coherent, makes sense, is not nonsense, even though it can't be cogently demonstrated by reason (as the churches put it). For instance, I pointed out and you agreed that the Trinity doctrine does NOT say ⅓+⅓+⅓=1; and I pointed out that 100% of God plus a distinct 100% of God plus a distinct 100% of God = 300% of God = three gods, but you disagreed, without saying what in your view the Trinity doctrine coherently said instead.

    So please provide the quotes the NT attributes to Jesus that you rely on, and please directly address the substance of the questions above, which are the heart of our discussion.
     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. Your quotes simply point to the dual nature of Christ. He is fully God and man. You can't point to a scripture that fully affirms he is man and then ignore the scripture that fully affirms he is God.

    You can't be serious Blü! I've been asking, cajoling, pleading with you to answer a very simple question, to wit:


    "Why do you call me good? Only God is good." is a DIRECT quote from Jesus!

    Jesus died for the sins of mankind, so he had to be good. In fact, he says he is good right at John 11:18:

    11 "I am the good shepherd, who is willing to die for the sheep.
    12 When the hired man, who is not a shepherd and does not own the sheep, sees a wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away; so the wolf snatches the sheep and scatters them.
    13 The hired man runs away because he is only a hired man and does not care about the sheep.
    14 I am the good shepherd. As the Father knows me and I know the Father, in the same way I know my sheep and they know me. And I am willing to die for them.​

    If Jesus is not good he can die, but he cannot die for the sheep, and if he is a hired hand, he is not willing to die for the sheep and would have thus failed in his mission.

    Jesus is good. Only God is good.
    Jesus is willing to die. God shows his love by living and dying as man (not living and dying as a god), for His sheep.

    My goodness! See above, ibid, and my desperate attempt to get an Arian or atheist to answer the OP.

    NOTE WHAT JESUS STATES: A hired hand will NOT lay down his life for the sheep. He flees.

    So now we're back to the OP:


    That was the OP question Blü, and the answer is found in John 11:18. God did no enlist a hired gun as our shepherd. A hired man would not have been able to accomplish His mission. He had to do it himself. That is why Jesus can call himself a "good" shepherd because only God is good, and because he is God he can lay down his life for the sins of all mankind. This is the dual nature of Jesus.

    So we learn that only God is good and Jesus is good...not only a good shepherd but a good man, because a no good man cannot atone for the sins of mankind. We also learned, from the lips of Jesus, that a hired shepherd will run away, which helps us understand Romans 5:8. It was God who demonstrated His love, not by hiring someone who would run away and not fulfill His mission, but by doing it Himself.

    Scripture harmonizes when Jesus is God. It flakes and falls apart when he is not.


    As I've explained before, there is no tripartite God in Christian scripture. You're confusing Triune with Tripartite. The two are not the same. There are no "thirds" of God.

    Now your bordering on dishonesty because i did explain this previously. A mystery, in the strict biblical sense, is a truth that was previously hidden but is now revealed by the Spirit. Without the Spirit you do not understand the mystery nor is the mystery revealed to you. It becomes "a nonsense".

    1. "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,..." (1 Corinthians 1:23)
    2. "And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables..." (Mark 4:11)
    3. "...which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.."
    4. "...making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ"

    However, in all fairness to you, I did not explain mystery in its broadest sense, which is the sense you understand mystery. A mystery here is still hidden, to everyone, and it is this broad sense that matches the colloquial usage you are familiar with.

    As Christ himself put it:

    At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. (Matthew 11:25)
    Quite simply, if we could figure out the things of God by human reason we would not need the Spirit. We would just need to be smart.

    I've explained that I'll discuss the Trinity in a separate thread. Right now I would like our atheist/Arian friends to stay focused and answer the OP. Those who believe Jesus is God can do it easily. Those who do not, cannot.

    I realize that we're in an era of proof texts, where Arians can ignore one text they can't explain by diverting the reader's attention to a shiny new text they hope to explain, but unless we engage in a little hermeneutics we will not progress our discussion anywhere.

    Jesus is God, and the only evidence needed is scripture.
     
  9. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus denies that he's God, never pretends to have a dual nature of that kind, and didn't have such a thing attributed to him until a couple of centuries later. If you disagree, quote me the parts of the NT where Jesus says he's God.

    I've asked you this again and again, but you have nothing. For example:
    Why do you call me President of the United States? Only Donald Trump is President of the United States?

    Why do you call me a Martian? Only creatures from Mars are Martians.

    Why do you call me 'madam'? Only women have that term of respect applied to them.

    Why do you call me God? I'm not God, President, Martian or a woman.
    Blah blah blah. Bring on that quote "I, Jesus, am God" or forget it.

    Explain why Jesus would even want to claim to be god when the idea that he was god was not around in the day and age attributed to him?
    I'll believe that when I see it. Meanwhile it looks like bald evasion to me.
     
  10. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I already have. I started with Romans 5:8 and even included Mark 10:18, but you're evading any discussion of hermeneutics. Instead you prefer to jump into another round of proof texts.

    As far as I know, no one here has called you President of the United States.

    And no one here called you a Martian.

    And no one here called you a madam.

    No one here called you any of these things, no one claimed you were good for being thus called, and certainly no one is claiming only Presidents, Martians and women are good. Lastly, no one is claiming that Blü is living and will die as any of these things in order for mankind to be saved.

    Blah blah blah. Bring on that quote "I, Jesus, ain't God" or forget it.

    Sure, and as the crowd bends over we could smile and say: "Don't worry about the stones Jesus...the idea you're claiming to be God won't be around for another 300 years!" (John 8:57-59)

    I'm not asking anyone for more proof texts here Blü. That's been done ad nauseam on the other threads. Instead of quoting, I'm simply asking folks to read and exegete a little scripture, and Romans 5:8 is not that difficult a task.

    Instead of looking at scripture as single verse silos, each one ready to extract and stand alone, look at as a harmonic whole, where verses do not directly conflict with each other, but actually support, agree or reinforce other scripture.
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I've got Jesus saying he's not god. You've got others from centuries later trying to argue that he is God anyway. You're actually complaining that you're thoroughly outgunned.
    And when Jesus says that someone other than himself is the only good person, he means that someone other than himself is the only good person. What he does NOT mean is that HE is the only good person.

    Why does your version of Jesus have to lie all the time, saying he's not what in your view he is?
    And they're entirely sufficient to refute your argument, which has no basis in scripture, so they're going to be part of the scene for as long as you want to pretend scripture says Jesus is God.
    I have, what, fifteen? seventeen? verses on the table, all humming along in perfect harmony, I'm Jesus and I'm not God.

    And since that doesn't suit you, you want to change not just the subject but our agreed rules that scripture is authoritative. No deal.


    Have you started your thread on the Trinity yet?
     
  12. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    You created your own bible?

    Again, we've just shown Jesus is God from scripture. Your only recourse is not to analyze scripture, but immediately deflect the readers attention to another scripture, a process called "proof texting".

    Let's look at the scriptures again:

    John 15: 13 tells us about "greater" love:

    "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."​

    Romans 5:8 tells us specifically mentions God, not Jesus, who demonstrates love:

    "But Jesus God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us"

    And of course, Jesus tells us that God didn't sub out the job of dying for us to a third party. This was something He had to do Himself, because anyone contracted to do the job would run away (John 10: 11-18)

    11 "I am the good shepherd, who is willing to die for the sheep.
    12 When the hired man, who is not a shepherd and does not own the sheep, sees a wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away; so the wolf snatches the sheep and scatters them.
    13 The hired man runs away because he is only a hired man and does not care about the sheep.
    14 I am the good shepherd. As the Father knows me and I know the Father, in the same way I know my sheep and they know me. And I am willing to die for them.​

    So now we know Christ is a good shepherd, but now we learn that only God is good (Luke 18:18)

    "Then a certain ruler asked Him, “Good Teacher,what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19“Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.…"​

    We also know that he must stay good if he is to die for the sheep, because God will not accept a blemished sacrifice (Leviticus 22: 3)

    "Say to them: ‘For the generations to come, if any of your descendants is ceremonially unclean and yet comes near the sacred offerings that the Israelites consecrate to the Lord, that person must be cut off from my presence. I am the Lord."​

    Anyone who dies for the sheep is the savior of the sheep, but there is only one Savior of sheep (Isaiah 43:11)

    "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior."​

    We also know we are not to acknowledge any Johnny come lately who claims to be Savior (Hosea 13:4):

    "But I have been the LORD your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me."​

    We know God does not share His glory with another, whether it be living man/animal or inanimate statue (Isaiah 48:11)

    "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another.

    And lastly, God does not allow us to worship Him "through" anyone or anything else, because that would be idolatry (Leviticus 26:11)

    You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth.​

    The inescapable conclusion is that Jesus is God, and not "a God" or demigod, but God.

    No, I’m actually complaining I can’t get an answer to the OP. I’ve made it a point to be extremely consistent with my lament.

    "Other than himself?" So now we have TWO separate and distinct good Teachers?

    So “Only God is good” does not really mean “Only God is good”? That sounds suspiciously like Giuliani’s “The truth isn’t the truth”.

    Nah. Proof texts have never been a substitute for sound exegesis. They can certainly serve as a beginning, but never the end of inquiry.

    I've posted a sound basis for why Jesus is God to which, despite your best efforts, no one has been able to coherently refute, all without any mention of the Trinity. And you want me to respond how? With pages of "proof texts"??

    I’m glad you’ve agreed to keep to our bargain for purposes of this thread, a difficult task for a non-believer.
    Salut!


    Goodness, I have barely enough time to tend to this one, never mind two threads! The only reason I started this one was because I had some vacation time and thought I could squeeze it in. Besides, why start another thread when we're having so much fun on this one?

    As I stated before, it's vitally important for folks to realize that Jesus' Divinity is established from scripture, and not from doctrine. That's why I wanted to leave the Trinity out of this discussion.

    But will I do a Trinity thread? Of course I will! It will be the next thread I start and you can gleefully pull out the big guns from your anti-Trinitarian arsenal then. :)
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Didn't have to. Jesus says he's not God on not fewer than 15 occasions, never says he IS God, and our agreement says the bible is authoritative, so you lose.

    Jesus is not God.
    Red herrings yet! Too late to try that nonsense ─ under our deal what the bible says is authoritative, the bible says Jesus says he's not God and therefore Jesus is not God.

    QED.

    Game over.

    Thanks for playing.



    And no surprise you lost. Not once, never, nowhere, does Jesus claim to be God.

    And you never addressed your problem with anachrony ─ where you want Jesus to champion an idea that didn't exist in his day or for the next couple of hundred years.

    And you never addressed the absurdity of Jesus saying "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" on the Cross.

    And you never addressed the absurdity of Jesus being God and therefore being his own father, &c.

    And you never addressed the incoherence of the Trinity ─ indeed, unlike the churches, you didn't even admit that 1+1+1=1 is indeed incoherent, a nonsense.



    Oh, and have you started that Trinity thread yet?
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Turn about is fair play; I can provide plenty of quotes which prove that Jesus is claiming to be God even if He does not flat out state it in some of them.

    Not sure why you don't want to go into the intent of the actual authors anyway. If we can prove that the authors considered Jesus God then that should be enough for anyone.

    Now (not in any particular order) let's get into the evidence you asked for:
    • Revelation 1:8 -- Jesus claims to be the Almighty
    • John 10:30 -- Jesus claims to be one with God.
    • John 14:8-9 -- Jesus claims He is God revealed.
    • John 2:19 -- Jesus claims He will raise Himself from the dead.
    • John 8:58 -- Jesus claims to exist before Abraham and furthermore He refers to Himself in the present tense. So He's claiming to be eternal.
    • Matthew 23:37 -- Jesus claims He Himself often wanted to gather Jerusalem under His wings. If this isn't a claim to Divinity; I hardly know what is.
    • John 7:37 -- Jesus claims to offer people the holy Spirit of God if they come to Him. So, no one can really give the Spirit except God Himself.
    • Mark 2:10 -- Jesus claims to have the power to forgive sins done against God.
    • John 14:23 -- Jesus claims He Himself will come to live in those who keep His commandments. So this means Jesus is the holy Spirit.
    • John 14:17 -- Jesus claims to be the Spirit of truth "dwelling with you" but "shall be in you".
    • John 14:6 -- Again, Jesus claims to be the Truth which Jews would have understood to be God. The Jewish concept that the truth is God we find in the ancient Hebrew writing of 1 Esdras. The Tale of Three Guardsmen
    • John 12:45 -- Jesus says if you see Him, you see the One who sent Him! Pair this with John 5:23 which shows that God sent Him. We could hardly find a clearer example of the One being sent claiming to be also the One who sent. This shows the duality of Christ's nature. Being Both God and human.
    • John 5:23 -- Jesus claims they should honor Him like they honor God. At this point you have to either conclude Jesus is stealing glory due to God alone or is truly God. I take the latter position.
    • John 8:23 -- Jesus claims to come from heaven. Although not an absolute claim to Divinity it's still evidence.
    • John 10:11-18 -- Jesus claims to be the "Good Shepherd" this is a term that Jews would have known would only be about God. That's what Psalm 23 is about after all. Yah being the "Good Shepherd".
    • Matthew 28:20 -- Jesus claims He will be with His disciples always to the end of the age.
    There are some quotes for you to start off with. Not that I think you'll even accept any of this.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But I'm about upholding what the documents say.

    You're about upholding a dogma that didn't exist in Jesus' day or for a couple of centuries after.

    Why would we bother to argue? Why would we not just cite the history of the doctrine, point out that Jesus didn't know of it, constantly denied he was God, and never once claimed to God; and that this didn't bother the Church fathers, who had set themselves the task of elevating Jesus to God status while very keen to avoid being called polytheist pagans.

    And that the churches call the Trinity doctrine 'a mystery in the strict sense', that is, it cannot be known by reason but only by revelation, and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason once it is revealed (their words, not mine). In other words, they admit the doctrine is incoherent.
    The first gospel is Mark. I'm told the koine Greek is the roughest of the four, suggesting perhaps that it was the author's second language. It differs from the other in several ways, but the big one is how Jesus became the son of God: by adoption, as in Psalm 2:7 (and elsewhere) as affirmed by Acts 13:33 ie in the Hebrew tradition, whereas in Luke and Matthew he's the son of God by divine insemination ie in the Greek tradition. Likewise the Jesus figure at the crucifixion is a sad human, while the Jesus figure from Matthew to John grows more and more in charge of events, more self-assured and confident about what he's doing. And so on.
    In my RSV these words are attributed to God, not Jesus.
    Yes, he does. That's not the same thing as claiming to be God. Not only that but in John 17:20-23 he goes on to tell you how anyone can be one with God just as he is, and hopes everyone will.
    He claims, as he claims elsewhere, that he's God's envoy. He makes no claim to being the Father? "I am in the Father", not "I am the Father". Thus John 1:18
    No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.​
    And see John 17:20+ again.
    That's one possible interpretation, but as he makes clear again and again, the only power he has is the power God gives him: he has none of his own.
    John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
    John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”
    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”​
    Yes, he says in several places that he had earlier existed in heaven with the Father; but neither here nor in those quotes does he claim to be God,
    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”
    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”​
    Hardly ─ that passage ends with Jesus referring to himself as "he who comes in the name of the Lord."
    Where do the gospels say that no one can really give the Spirit except God himself? What stops Jesus, as God's envoy and empowered by God, from doing just that?
    Yes, he does. See again:
    John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
    John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”​
    That's not what it says. Instead it clearly identifies God as a distinct entity from Jesus"
    John 14:23 ..."If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.​
    Ahm, no, Jesus says that God will give the listener 'another Counselor 17 even the Spirit of Truth' to be with the listener forever. That is the Holy Ghost, and God, not Jesus, will send [it].
    That won't work either ─ the full sentence is, "I am the way, and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me." ie Jesus is the mediator, the Father is God.
    It shows nothing of the kind, and nothing helpful to your argument. Read it again ─
    John 12:44: ... "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me 45 And he who sees me sees him who sent me."​
    The separateness of Jesus and God could hardly be clearer.
    The correct position is asserted in the passage:
    John 5:23 ..."He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 ... he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life ..."​
    See quotes John 6:38 and 8:42 above.
    Again, that's a long bow, and refuted by the rest of the passage:
    John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me 15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father... 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again."​
    That's consistent with his being in heaven. He doesn't have to be God to do that.

    Sorry, but not one of those has any bite, raises any serious question that Jesus is the same person as the Father. Rather the distinction of the Father as master and Jesus as servant is affirmed at every turn.
     
  16. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    In other words, you created your own bible.

    Only in the Blü bible.

    You were suppose to provide that quote that we can only find in the Blü bible. You know...the "I ain't God" one.

    Agreed. It was over the moment you failed to realize the quandary you were in. Strange how the "Jesus ain't God" Christians realized this from the outset, but you as a non-believer did not.

    I enjoyed it! Be sure to look me up when I start the Trinity thread. We can play there too.

    I'm afraid in the Christian bible he does. But then you cannot engage in any form of exegesis so you resort to "proof texts".

    A shame and disappointment.

    Sure, and as I said, the Jews never picked up stones because Jesus claimed he was God. Such "an idea didn't exist in his day or for the next couple of hundred years". :rolleyes:


    Probably because he never said it.

    Because I'm not discussing the Trinity, Oneness, Arianism or any other doctrine here. It would simply distract the reader from the clear scriptural message that Jesus is God.

    I wasn't discussing the Trinity doctrine. From the outset I made it clear we were discussing scripture, not doctrine. I don't see how I could have been more "coherent" then that.

    But as an aside, why you would confuse Tritheism with Trinitarianism is beyond me.

    Your flailing attempt to address the OP has been much too fun Blu. Again, thanks for playing. You'll get another go at it when I start the Trinity thread. Bring your heavy guns.

    And when you finally get around to it, feel free to actually address the OP.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    We agreed that scripture is authoritative. All the quotes I provided are from scripture.

    And you never found a quote of Jesus claiming to be God, and you never addressed the other points, like anachrony and "Why have I forsaken me?"

    So I win. You lose. We're finished here. You can stop calling Jesus a liar now.



    However I look forward to that separate thread on the Trinity you said you were going to start.
     
  18. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Great! So all we need now is the “I, Jesus Christ, deny that I am God” quote you claim you found.

    "Quote of Jesus”? That’s easy enough to do, but why are you trying to limit me to the quotes of Jesus when we just agreed that all scripture is authoritative? Honestly Blü, it sounds like you abandon rules as quickly as you abandon scripture

    You see blasphemy as an anachronism for the 1st Century AD? Where are you getting this stuff?

    Is this another quote from the Blu bible? I can't seem to find it in mine.

    And you crown yourself winner without giving a single coherent answer to the OP.

    Amazing!

    Did you receive this revelation from the Blü bible?

    Why not tell us how a no good Jesus managed to die for mankind’s sins?

    Or how a blemished Jesus was found acceptable to the Father as atonement?

    Or why you initially claimed ONLY God was good whilst later claiming the same status for Jesus?
    Doesn’t that make Jesus God?

    And while you’re at it, can you tell us why “Only” doesn’t really mean “Only” in the Blü bible? In other words, why is God good alone if Jesus is good also?

    Why not answer the OP, and tell us why scripture declares it was God rather than Jesus who shows us love by dying for our sins?

    If there’s a burning building with people trapped inside, does God show “greater” love by sending someone else to run in and die when He could rescue them Himself?

    How does God declare Himself "Savior" when someone else does the saving?

    You have not and cannot answer any of these things, so you lose.

    As do I. In the meantime, feel free to address the OP.
     
  19. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    That's quite an impressive list of proof-texts Blü! Why don't we just split your fifteen or seventeen and call it sixteen?

    Of course, if all we're trying to do is show Jesus is God through a bunch of proof-texts, we should take your 16 and add a zero, just to be fair.

    So here you are all you proof texters! Enjoy!!

    160 Reasons Jesus Christ is Almighty God

    By Thomas Golda

    1. Jesus IS the visible image of the Invisible God - Colossians 1:15, II Corinthians 4:4...to see Jesus is to see the Invisible God - Mankind was created IN the image of God - Genesis 1:26...Jesus IS the image of God. To see Jesus is to see the Invisible God in the flesh.

    2. Jesus was conceived by God - Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20. Since Mary was his earthy mother, that makes Jesus fully human..since God was His physical Father, since Jesus did not have an earthy father, that makes Jesus fully God. He was fully man and fully God. The Great Godman.

    3. To see Jesus' face is to see the glory of God - II Corinthians 4:6

    4. Jesus "being in the form of God" makes Him God - Philippians 2:6

    5. Jesus being the brightness of the Father's glory - Hebrews 1:3

    6. Jesus is the exact image of the Father's Person - Hebrews 1:3

    7. That is why to "see Jesus" is to "see the Father" - John 14:9, John 12:45

    8. That is why Jesus said He and His Father are one - John 10:30

    9. Jesus is IN the bosom of the Father - John 1:18. Not "on" the bosom"..not "near" the bosom...IN the bosom...He is in the center of theFather. They are "one"

    10. He is called EVERLASTING Father - Isaiah 9:6

    11. Jesus deserves the SAME honour as the Father - John 5:23

    12.Jesus was WORSHIPED - Matthew 2:11, Matthew 9:12, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:52..Since only God is to be worshiped - Matthew 4:10..that means Jesus is God.

    13. Even angels WORSHIP Jesus - Hebrews 1:6

    14. Heaven falls down before the Lamb - Revelation 5:8

    15. Jesus Created ALL things - Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3, Ephesians 3:9 ....God created all things - Acts 14:15, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 42:5. Jesus is God

    16. Jesus also made the world - John 1:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 44:18

    17. Jesus created all things for HIMSELF - Colossians 1:16, Proverbs 16:4(Jesus is God)

    18. By Jesus all things consist - Colossians 1:17

    19. Jesus upholds all things - Hebrews 1:3

    20. Jesus is before all things - Colossians 1:17

    21. Jesus rules heaven and earth - Matthew 28:18. Jesus is God - II Chronicles 29:11

    22. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath - Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5

    23. Jesus called Himself the Great "I AM" - John 8:58, John 8:24...a quote from Exodus 3:14

    24. In the body of Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead - Colossians 2:9

    25. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are THREE and they are ONE - I John 5:7

    26. And this is all why Jesus is EQUAL WITH GOD - Philippians 2:6

    27. Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh" - I Timothy 3:16

    28. God was in Christ - Galatians 3:17, II Corinthians 5:19

    29. Jesus is the Power of God and the Wisdom of God - I Corinthians 1:24

    30. Jesus "only" hath immortality - I Timothy 6:16

    31. Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead - Romans 14:9

    32. Jesus is called the Saviour - Luke 2:11, Titus 1:4, Titus 2:13, Titus 3:3, II Peter 1:1, II Peter 1:11, II Peter 2:20, II Peter 3:18, I John 4:14

    Continued....
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    160 Reasons Jesus Christ is Almighty God
    By Thomas Golda


    33. Only Jehovah God alone is the Saviour - Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 45:15 , Hosea 13:4, I Timothy 2:2, Jude 1:25...that means Jesus is God.

    34. Jesus ALONE is the Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge is God - Hebrews 12:23, Revelation 18:8, Hebrews 13:4, Romans 2:3,5 Jesus is God. All the verses in the Bible that talk about God being the Judge refer to Jesus, since He alone judges. The Father judges no man - John 5:22.

    35. Jesus has the keys of hell and of death - Revelation 1:18. The one that can cast into hell is to be FEARED - Matthew 10:28, Luke

    12:5 Only God is to be feared - Rev 14:7

    36. Jesus is from EVERLASTING - Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6

    37. Jesus has NO BEGINNING of days - Hebrews 7:3

    38. Jesus is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever - Hebrews 13:8. A quote from Psalm 102:27. Jesus is God.

    39. Jesus' is in the midst or the center of the throne of God - Rev 1:6

    40. Jesus has the Greatest Name above every name ever named - Philippians 2:9

    41. Jesus' name is the Greatest in the world to come as well - Ephesians 1:21

    42. And it is before name of JESUS, not any other name including Jehovah, that the peoples of the earth and heaven and bowing before - Philippians 2:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 45:22-23

    43. Only by the name JESUS can one be saved - Acts 4:10-12

    44. Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega - Revelation 1:11

    45. Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega is the ALMIGHTY - Revelation 1:7-8

    46. Jesus is called the King of kings - I Timothy 6:15. Jesus is the King - Zechariah 9:9. The King is God - I Timothy 1:17. Jesus is God

    47. Jesus is called Lord of lords - I Timothy 6:15. God is called Lord of lords - Deut 10:17. Jesus is God

    48. Christ is called the ROCK - I Corinthians 10:4. That is who Israel followed. The ROCK who Israel followed was GOD - Deut 32:3-4.God is the Rock - Psalm 18:2 and only God is the Rock - Psalm 18:31. Christ is God.

    49. Jesus calls Himself the FIRST AND THE LAST - Revelation 1:11,17. Only GOD is the FIRST AND THE LAST - Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah

    48:12. Jesus is God
    .
    50. Jesus knows all things (OMNIPOTENT) - John 2:24-25, John 4:29, John 6:64, John 16:30

    51. Jesus is OMNIPRESENT - Matthew 18:20, Matthew 28:20

    52. Jesus' body fills all (is omnipresent) - Ephesians 1:23

    53. Jesus knows the hearts of men - Revelation 2:23

    54. Jesus dwells in the hearts - Ephesians 3:17

    55. And "liveth" in the believers - Galatians 2:20

    56. Jesus knows the thoughts of men - Matthew 9:4, Luke 6:8

    57. And Jesus will judge the "secrets" of men - Romans 2:16

    58. God shed His blood - Acts 20:28

    59. The cross is the "power of God" - I Corinthians 1:17-18

    60. Jesus called the Kingdom of God His Kingdom - John 18:36

    61. Jesus is the "Deliverer" of the believers from the wrath of God - I Thessalonians 1:10, Romans 11:26. Only God is the Deliverer from the wrath of God - II Corinthians 1:9-10

    62. In Jesus' name we TRUST - Ephesians 1:12-13, Matthew 12:21, Philippians 2:19. Only in God do we trust - Psalm 4:5, 7:1, 31:1,73:28, Isaiah 26:4. Jesus is God.

    63. Jesus is the TRUTH - John 14:6. Jesus is God - Psalm 31:5

    64. Jesus sent the prophets - Matthew 23:34...God sent the prophets - Jeremiah 7:25. Jesus is God who sent the prophets.

    Continued...
     
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