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Featured So Jesus is not God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Oeste, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    So said those who follow the words of other people and ignore the words of Jesus himself.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The use of the word "Trinity" was coined in an attempt to try and explain the relationship between God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, thus the word itself is not found in the Gospel.
     
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said he was God. Jesus Christ is God Incarnate

     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I don't believe there is any evidence that God is a trinity. There certainly is plenty of evidence that the Trinity is God.
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there are also other trinities in the Bible as well but this one is the most important.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe we go by the words of Jesus when we say that so you are in error.
     
  7. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Hello @john bannon, and welcome to Religious Forums! I am honored that you chose my thread for your very first post. We all (if I may presumptuously speak for all) look forward to hearing more from you.

    “Jesus is not God” has already been accepted as a premise in the OP. I'm not sure how restating this or how John 17:4 solves the quandary. You would need to elaborate.


    Hi @tigger2. Ditto for these two verses.

    I've read John 17:1 all the way through to John 17:4, which encompasses the comment from @john bannon above. I'm not sure how you see these verses interplaying with Romans 5:8.


    _______________________________________________________________________


    “Jesus is not God” has already been accepted as a premise in the OP.

    I certainly don't agree with this premise
    but I have assumed it for the sake of argument. Unfortunately, once I accept the premise, problems arise with other scripture.

    As @74x12 pointed out earlier, God is the source of love:

    Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.. (1 John 4:8)

    And we also know how the ultimate in greater love is shown:

    Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13)

    And to drive the point a little further, we know a servant is not greater than his master:

    Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' (John 15:20)


    Now, with this in mind...that scripture is authoritative...we come back to our premise that Jesus is not God and Romans 5:8


    "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."


    How is it God who demonstrates His own love when it is His son, Christ who dies? Who actually is showing greater love here?


    In other words, how do we harmonize 1 John 4:8, John 15:13, John 15:20, and Romans 5:8 once we accept the doctrine “Jesus is not God”?

    Again, this is fairly easy when Jesus is God. I'm just wondering how harmonization occurs when he is not.
     
  8. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    Jesus NEVER said he was God but, other people did because they misinterpreted, intentionally or unintentionally, the scriptures.

    As an example, in John 10:30, if Jesus meant to say he and God are one and the same person, then Jesus, must be praying to God to make all his disciples Gods too when he said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them MAY BE ONE, Father, just as YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that YOU HAVE SENT ME. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – John 17:20-23).

    In saying ‘I and my Father are one’, Jesus was talking about COMPLETE UNITY, NOT that he and God are one and the same person – Jesus himself said so in your own scripture , for God’s sake !! Why are you still listening to other people and ignoring Jesus own words ???!
     
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  9. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    An attempt to explain the relationship, maybe. To say God is a ‘3-in-1’ God is blasphemy because God is the ABSOLUTE ONE, not a one-team God made up of 3 god members – that’s simply nonsense !
     
  10. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    Again, the fullness of God in Jesus doesn’t make him God. Clearly, Paul did not see the fullness of God in someone means that someone is God too. In Ephesians 3:19 Paul said everyone should be filled with “all the fullness of God,” – does that mean Paul wanted everyone to be God ???

    To have the fullness of God simply means to feel the presence of God in oneself, and Jesus, being a prophet of God definitely felt or filled with the fullness of God in him. In Ephesians 3:19, Paul prayed that every one too should feel or have the presence or fullness of God in themselves too.
     
  11. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Science.

    A human thinks about science first.

    Attacks natural.

    Says I was sacrificed as a baby to man adult by adult father self. As a human.

    Conscious first. Natural. Changed

    The teaching. Natural thinking no longer existed as awareness origins.

    Reason fake science conditions chosen introduced.

    Science then owned human teaching self possession versus consciousness.

    Son and father human one life not two.

    Science introduced separated not natural thinking concepts.

    The thinker not Jesus not God yet is thinking about Jesus and God.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    In order to understand the Trinitarian concept, one needs to understand the use of "essence" within the early Church. To put it another way, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the Father but not literally the Father.

    The Gospel was very early on written in or translated into Koine Greek, whereas there was an understanding of the Greek philosophers use of "essence" as promulgated by Aristotle and Plato especially. This is repeatedly used within the Gospels, such as found in Jesus' "The Father and I are one".
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said in John 10:30 I and my Father are one. If a person said that they are one with the Father that would be blasphemous. People say that they are one with the universe but the universe isn't God. People call God Father but that's different from saying you are one with God.
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The context of Ephesians 3:19 shows that it's about the divinity of Jesus. To understand the meaning of a verse in the Bible you have to look at the context of it. The context of Ephesians 3:19 shows that Jesus is divine. When you read the Bible over and over again you notice things that you didn't notice before. Col. 2:9 and Eph. 3:19 the Deity of Jesus | carm.org

     
  15. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    So, was Jesus trying to tell the people that he’s God when he said “The Father and I are one” ?
     
  16. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    If Jesus, or anyone, said ‘I and my Father are one’ to indicate that he and God are one and the same person, that’s blasphemy by any standard. If a person or Jesus said that they are one with God to indicate that they are in unity with God’s Mission and Plans, that’s NOT blasphemy. That should be very clear.
     
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  17. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    You should stop depending on carm.org for your information and read to understand the Bible yourself. Not all Christians will agree with CARM.org founder, Matt Slick - https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/matt-slick-exposed.htm
     
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  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus could have indicated He was in unity with God's mission and plans without saying I and the Father are one. Jesus wasn't preaching unity, He was saying that He was God.

     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Being filled with the fullness of God in Ephesians 3:19 is not comparable to the divinity of Jesus mentioned in Colossians 2:9

    And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    The fullness of the Godhead doesn't bodily dwell in a believer. To interpret the correct meaning of Bible verses, you have to read the context.
     
  20. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    By saying “I and my father are one”, Jesus IS indicating he’s in unity with God’s mission and plans !!

    Let me say it again - If you understand “I and my Father are one’ means Jesus is saying he’s God, then was Jesus praying to God to make all his disciples Gods too when he said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them MAY BE ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that YOU HAVE SENT ME. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – John 17:20-23 ?

    The phrase ‘AS WE ARE ONE’ is a reference to Jesus’ “I and my Father are one’. Why did Jesus want his disciples to be one just as he and God are one ? So that they are all in the state of complete unity with God’s plans and only then, the world will know it was God who sent Jesus, NOT that Jesus sent himself to the world – it’s all there in John 17:20-23 !! It’s mind-boggling that you keep listening to other people's words and keep harping Jesus is God when Jesus’ own words in your own scripture said otherwise !!
     
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