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Featured So Jesus is not God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Oeste, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Please please please if you can stop from telling me about ‘el’, ‘eloah’, ‘Elohim’, etc. And nobodies ‘Bible’ does it for me. Thanks for understanding what I informed you but it’s really not complicated at all especially as there is only one GOD of the Israelites.

    All ‘images of God’ are ‘gods’... don’t misunderstand me here. Moorea944, what you need to understand is the MEANING of the word, ‘God’. ...I’m getting to the point where I think people of claimed Christian belief are crazed maniacs ...

    The word ‘GOD’ is NOT A PERSON... it’s a reference TO A PERSON. It’s like the words ‘Monarch’, ‘King’, ‘Lord’, etc.

    There are MANY Monarchs, many Kings, many Lords... each is ‘A .....’ (INDEFINITE article).

    However, when referring EXPLICITLY to a SPECIFIC we use ‘The .....’. (DEFINITE article).

    Example: There have been many monarchs of the United Kingdom. A monarch of high profile note was THE MONARCH, King Henry VIII.

    Apply this above to the Monarch of the Jews. Pagan tribes around them believed that the world was created, run, and sustained by a plethora of such spirit Gods BUT the Jews believed that its was created, run, and sustained by ONLY ONE GOD.

    So in referencing their ONLY GOD, their only heavenly monarch they NEVER used the INDEFINITE article, and, rarely even used the DEFINITE article except in such cases towards non-Jews ‘The God of our forefathers,,,’, ‘The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...’. In speaking of their within the nation of Jews they dropped the definite article and just said, ‘God’. There was no need to reference in any other way to identify ‘which’ monarch/God nor refer [second person] (the) to him.

    As Christians, we also drop the definite (the god) as we also only believe in this selfsame one God.

    Moorea944, what this does is to lead people to start referring the word, ‘God’ as a NAME of the heavenly monarch. Trinitarians especially do this and although it is correct FROM A JEW/CHRISTIAN point of view to say there is no other God but our one God, it is WRONG WRONG WRONG to claim that there are no others who are referred to AS GOD and GODS... We cannot claim that we are the only ones who believe in a/the/some God(s) because, of course, THEY DO BELIEVE. As the apostle says, ‘THOUGH there are GODS and Lords aplenty, FOR US there is only one God; the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ’. This is absolutely the correct mindset... do not deny that others believe things we do not - because to them, we are the strange ones!!

    So, since the word ‘God’ is not unique, it is perfectly useable in other contexts. Even almighty God called holy men of renown, ‘Gods’, BECAUSE the word SIMPLY MEANS ‘Ruling’, ‘All Mighty [in all contexts]’, ‘Mighty in Power and authority [in limited context’]’, ‘Overarching’, ‘Glorious’, ‘Majestic’, ‘Supreme’... all rolled together:
    • The grandmaster chess player is GOD of his game
    • The principal is GOD of his school
    • The judge in HIS courtroom is GOD of that courtroom
    • The Father (Jewish) is God of his household
    You notice the definite article used for the explicit context! Because of course, there are many of such contexts and taken together we would otherwise have to say without the context, ‘A Judge...’, ‘A Father...’, etc.

    So, the holy angels ARE GODS of their contextual realm over mankind. But we know that this context is limited while humanity is in its ‘childhood phase’:
    • For though a prince (humanity) he is no different to a servant [learning, disciplined, restrained in power, lower than the angels for a while]
    And we are not to worship such angelic ‘gods’ and neither do they seek worship for even they are servants of the greater ‘God’.

    Moorea944, you outline upper and lowercase ‘God’ and also ‘El’ , ‘Eloah’, ‘Elohim’... These are used to show the CONTEXTUAL usage which I outlined above and I understand them fully!!

    It is others who DO NOT UNDERSTAND and misuse the usage of ‘God’ and ‘Gods’. I have no such issues. And, in fact, it should help, once understood, to see how there is no TRINITY and that THE ALMIGHTY SPIRIT ONE (The God) used his MIGHTY SPIRIT ONES (Angels) to create a RULING FLESH ONE (Adam) over other flesh creations.

    Extrapolating: Adam fell from his rulership when he sinned. Another was brought up to replace him (Jesus), as you outlined yourself. So there should be no straining at the understand when we say that Jesus will be ‘God over creation’ in time to come because we know that this is not ALMIGHTY GOD, but the usage of ‘Ruling over creation’. Creation was made FOR HIM ... that is, ‘He who fulfilled ALMIGHTY GOD’s desires...’ which SHOULD HAVE BEEN Adam as he was ‘Father of mankind’. As ‘Father of mankind’ he SHOULD have rightly become its RULER also... but history proved differently. So once again, with this knowledge it is clear that ‘Jesus’ could not have existed from time since it was an ABSOLUTE that Adam would have sinned. In fact THE GOD was VERY ANGRY that he committed the sin. But like any great designer, The God had a contingency, a redeemer, but not of the sinful man but a new and SECOND PURE creation AS OF THE FIRST. Hence Jesus is called, ‘The second or Last ADAM’, born NOT OF MAN but by the holy spiritual of The God. The seed of the sinful Adam could not produce a sinless offspring and so the SEED OF A WOMAN (the ‘dust of the earth) was fashioned into a human being and the Holy Spirit overshadowing her seed ENLIVENED the seed to give life to it... Thus the child born was like the original Adam: Pure, sinless, and Holy... SON OF GOD!!! (luke 3:38)

    MOOREA944, how many people refer to Luke 3:38? ‘Son of [the] God’ MEANS: ‘He who follows and obeys and does the Will of [the] GOD’. Jesus STATED this to the Jews who accused him of claiming to be The God. Jesus told them that he was doing the works of his Father (The God) and this qualified him as ‘Son of God’. Yet Trinitarians STILL claim Jesus was claiming to be the God. They make Jesus out to be a liar! And yet elsewhere scriptures says, ‘He who follows the spirit of God are children of God’... yet even these things don’t qualify the term ‘Son of God’ to unbelievers...

    How many people remember that Adam was ‘Image of God’ and claim that Jesus alone was born ‘Image of God’. It is true that Jesus IS image of God eternally but this is because Adam FAILED to maintain his status of such.

    Moorea944, I’ll stop now but I have far more than this to say. Ask away!!
     
    #801 Soapy, Dec 16, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus has two natures because the Bible says that God appointed a man to judge the world in righteousness who rose from the dead.

    Why would Jesus be the Lord if He isn't God?

    Someone I know who is a Messianic Jew said that I'm a son of God but not the Son of God.

    When Thomas saw the ressurected Jesus he called him Lord. Jesus was a man because he had friends. John was the disciple who Jesus loved.

    Why would a man who isn't God judge me jr world?

    Genesis mentions us three times. The Trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament.

    God can become a man because He is omnipotent.

    The virgin birth doesn't mean that he wasn't the Messiah because he was legally the descendant of David.
     
  3. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    No worries. Nothing was meant to say that you didnt know what was being discussed. I agree with what our saying here to for the most part anyhow.
    Im sorry if I said something that upset you. Wasnt meant to be. But I understand what your saying.... :>)
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Why would God tell the holy angels that he was going to make man in their image? How can God have a spirit if there is no Trinity? You refer to the Holy Spirit and the Father as different persons. Angels are not made in the image of God and don't have dominion. God didn't say let us make man in our image to the angels he said it as Yahweh. The angels are there to serve God. They were not involved with God creating humanity.
     
  5. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [Jesus has two natures because the Bible says that God appointed a man to judge the world in righteousness who rose from the dead.]
    That has nothing to do with two natures. God gave his son all power and authority.

    [Why would Jesus be the Lord if He isn't God?]
    Do you know what the word Lord means? It's a title. God "gave him' that title. Are we reading the same bible? Not sure anymore.

    When Thomas saw the resurrected Jesus he called him Lord. Jesus was a man because he had friends. John was the disciple who Jesus loved]
    That's correct. A lot of people called Jesus Lord. Jesus also carries and bears God name too.

    [Why would a man who isn't God judge me jr world?]
    That verse YOU gave me a few posts ago told us that God would judge through... his son. God gave his son all power and authority. Jesus is not God.

    [Genesis mentions us three times. The Trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament.]
    So "us' is Jesus? I would say it's God and the angels. Jesus wasnt born yet. In the org txt, it's Elohim. Plural for Eloah. In most cases in scripture it is the angels, "the mighty ones". In certain cases man can be Elohim or God too. God wanted Moses to be God or Elohim to Pharaoh. The judges and Levite priests were called God or Gods because they were the ones who brought the word of God to the people. They bore and carried God's name. Same as Jesus.

    [God can become a man because He is omnipotent.]
    Ughhhh........

    [The virgin birth doesn't mean that he wasn't the Messiah because he was legally the descendant of David.]
    I didnt say that it was......
     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Why would a mere person have all power and authority? The angels sinned because they wanted to be God.

    Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God, not just Lord like Abraham's wife calling him Lord.

    If Jesus wasn't God it would be blasphemous for Him to carry and bear God's name.

    Genesis 18:25 refers to God as the judge.

    Why would the verse refer to angels when the angels weren't making man in their image? Elohim being plural for Eloah hints at the Trinity. The judges and priests spoke for God but they weren't called little gods or given respect that is only to be given to God.

    If God could put cherubim in Eden he could become a man.
     
  7. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Hi Moorea944, thanks for the honesty. I’m passionate for truth of scriptures and can see where many veer away at certain points which leads them to wrongful ideas. A test is whether a beginning to end of the purpose of scriptures pans out WITHOUT having to FUDGE any part in order to fit. If such a storyline works fully then you have the truth. In execution 99% of storylines will fail and will be fudged to fit.
    While I’m saying, I did make an error when I said that it was an absolute that Adam would sin... I accidentally missed out the ‘Not’.... it was NOT an ABSOLUTE that Adam would sin.

    But moorea944, you said you only ‘mostly’ believe what I say. Could you briefly outline or bullet point what you think I’m saying wrong or not quite what you believe. Really, please take a little time as I’m interested if I am wrong somewhere or to guide you to the correct line of thought.

    By the way, I admire how you are tackling skywalker, who is clearly deluded. I find it completely frustrating reading it let alone if I had to respond to him......!!! It is clear skywalker has no idea about the CHRISTIAN/JEWISH only God that we are believing - he is expressing a strange impossible pagan tri-person god who doesn’t know who He is from one event to the next!!! The idea that ‘GOD’ died (but then didn’t die) FOR HIS CREATION???!!! Really? You rightly say, ‘What kind of God can die!!?’... clearly it is not THE GOD that Jews and Christians believe in and this leads to the direct revelation (though why it’s a revelation is beyond me!) that trinity is NOT CHRISTIAN.... OR, that TRUE BELIEVERS should not be called CHRISTIANS.
    What I mean is that we true believers class ourselves under the banner of ‘Christ Followers’ or ‘Christians’, but in doing so we are caught up in the ridicule of the trinity fraternity which others such as JW, Mormons, Muslims, Atheists, etc, find so easy to criticise. I know nothing is easy - I just watched a DVD on ‘[Apostle] Peter’ and see how even as he spoke the truth to Nero and even Nero could see the truth, Peter was still jailed, beaten, and executed because Nero, as Roman governor, could not afford to admit the strength of the Faith of Peter and the Jesus followers against the established Roman pagan belief. Also, Nero feared the people would follow Jesus/Peter and remove the focus away from him and Roman rule. Can you imagine Peter confronted by Nero and expressing every truth only to be executed like Jesus was for telling the truth??? I believe you and I are being tortured with the flail of skywalker’s pagan rhetoric!!!
    Keep the faith (in the DVD, many of those arrested with Peter renounced their belief and were released!! Released? They just spiritually jailed themselves!!!)
     
  8. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Skywalker, you don’t understand what ‘image’ means. Your thinking is not Spiritual, it is of the flesh hence you see something like a picture of a human god. No!! Image means personality and nature. God made mankind to RULE over the animal kingdom. One ‘image’ of God is that of a RULER... we also: Love, forgive, design freely, are righteous, have great wisdom, strength power and authority over ourselves... much more. These things animal do not have anywhere like mankind does and are all ‘image’ of God.
    And you say that angels do not have dominion? Wrong!!! Angels DO have dominion over their ‘Stations’ that they are appointed to by YAHWEH God. You will see that the angels ‘who left their stations’ to rebel with Satan were locked away in spiritual darkness awaiting destruction. Satan is not locked away at this time because like our own system we don’t lock up high level dignitaries even when they do very wrong! No, such ones are FREE until absolutely found guilty as Satan is being judged right now... only when he is FOUND GUILTY by Jesus at the judgement seat will he be destroyed!!
    Back to image... Angels HAVE many of the traits of God BUT CAN ONLY EXERCISE THEM IN SERVICE TO YAHWEH GOD!! And so, YES YAHWEH was speaking to the angels saying, ‘Let us make man in our image’...
    Ask yourself, what was the reason for man being made in the image of ‘us’? What did GOD say man was to do... to be ... rulers... Skywalker, what qualities and personalities and nature should a RULER have?
    Skywalker, you seem to think that angels are pointless creations of God... you couldn’t be more wrong... God created them as POWERFUL INTELLIGENT and WISE spirit creatures and uses them to do his bidding... You appear to think that God’s greatest creation did not involve such spirit aid??? Amazing... why did God create them then?

    Skywalker, God created the first human being, Adam, from the ‘dust of the earth’, which is/are Chemical elements (atoms/molecules). These are NOT LIVING THINGS. So though the body was made, Adam was not a LIVING SOUL until the SPIRIT OF GOD put the breath of life into the lifeless body - “And the man became a LIVING SOUL”.
    Skywalker, in being ‘enspirited’ by the holy spiritual OF GOD, Adam was SINLESS AND HOLY, RIGHTEOUS IN ALL HIS WAYS ‘until sin was found in him’.
    How did GOD say that man could he redeemed?
    Doesn’t Isaiah say: ‘behold my SERVANT whom I have chosen. He will do my bidding and bring salvation to the nations!’ (My wording). Is GOD a SERVANT OF HIMSELF??
    Skywalker, how was Jesus come into being? Didn’t God say that the redeemer would be (not of the seed of Adam, but...) the SEED OF A WOMAN?
    Skywalker, the SEED of the Virgin Mary is akin to the ‘DUST OF THE EARTH’ which was then BROUGHT TO LIFE by the ‘Overshadowing by the holy spirit’. “Therefore the child TO BE BORN to you SHALL BE HOLY [sinless and righteous] and called the Son of God’(Luke 3:38). Are you saying you can’t see the parallel between the creation of Adam and the creation of Jesus? Really?

    How can God be a trinity without a Spirit... this shows your ‘God’ is not THE GOD we are speaking of. The God myself and moorea944 speak of is as this:
    • There is His THOUGHTS AND IDEAS
    • There is His ACTIONING of his thoughts and ideas
    The Father, YAHWEH God, first thinks, then ACTS on that thought... the ACTIONING is his HIS HOLY SPIRIT.
    Skywalker, is your English language so bad that you cannot see that ‘SPIRIT OF GOD’ is not a separate independent PERSON. Do we, as IMAGE OF GOD not have a thought BEFORE ACTING ON THST THOUGHT? Is the ACTIONING by a SEPARATE PERSON IN US?

    If man is image of God and God is three persons.... where is the three persons in a man?
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The first Christians were Jewish. God died for his creation and then resurrected. There is no contradict between God being dead then alive because he came back to life. God the Father and God the Son know each other perfectly in the Trinity. God cannot normally die because God is spirit but in the form of a person God can die. The Trinity is not polytheism because it teaches that within the Trinity the Father has authority, not that Jesus is inferior to the Father. Jesus chose to be the suffering servant of the Father. Being subordinate doesn't mean that their essence or being or nature was different. Jesus and the Father are the same God because their value and worth is the same. The Bible teaching being subordinate in marriage doesn't mean it teaches inequality. God the Father and God the Son are equal in glory, nature, and honor. They are the same God because they are all self existent, eternal, and created everything.
     
  10. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Since angels aren't made in God's image but Adam was, let us make man in our image is not God talking to the angels. God created angels because God created all things for his pleasure. In Revelation 4:11 the Bible says, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Angels are powerful beings but that doesn't mean they are made in God's image. Angels aren't made in God's image because they are not men and women. Men and women display God's image.

    Job looked forward to his redeemer.

    God the Son was a servant of God the Father.

    Mary was a descendant of Adam.

    Jesus being the Son of God isn't a reference to His creation as a man, it's a reference to His Sonship.

    How is the Trinity without a Spirit not polytheism but a Trinity with a Spirit is?

    Jesus was God the Son, not the Holy Spirit or God the Father.
     
  11. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Skywalker, do you use some sort of ‘story writer’ system that generates sentences when you drop in a set of words? That’s what it sounds like you are going?

    Once again, you are not understanding what ‘image’ means. It’s not a MIRROR picture because even that doesn’t mean that Jesus is God: a reflection of something is not the thing that it is reflected from. You’d ‘image’ in a mirror ‘Csn only do what is reflected from you’ it can do nothing of its free self.

    So, Jesus says he can do nothing except what he sees the Father doing.., you know that, don’t you?
    He has to first see what the Father does and then, by the power of the Holy Spirit, do likewise. That CANNOT MEAN that Jesus is the INITIATOR... an image is a dedicated follower.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    People being made in God's image doesn't mean that we are little gods. We are not mirrors of God. Jesus wasn't separating Himself from God the Father he was saying that he was following the Father's will. The Father and Son having wills in alignment supports the Trinity. Jesus was in alignment with the Holy Spirit too. ISAIAH 61:1 KJV "The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto..."

    ACTS 10:38 KJV "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and..."
     
  13. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [The Father and Son having wills in alignment supports the Trinity.]
    Then we are part of the trinity then too, right? Dont we want our minds to be aligned with God's? Dont we want that same mindset of a spiritual mind?
    Look at
    John 17 God was one with Jesus... but... it also tells that about us too. Again... read John 17. So I guess the trinity consist of millions of people if that's the case with the trinity..

    Doesnt John 17 also tell us that in order to have eternal life I have to "know" God? Wouldnt that then make me part of the trinity? Jesus knew God... Scripture tells us that we should to.
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Our minds are not aligned with God in the same way that the Father, Son, and Spirit are aligned with each other. People don't have the same essence of God. We are not little gods. Knowing God is different from the level of closeness that Jesus and the Father have with each other. Jesus knew God because since the members of the Trinity are the same essence, they are aware of each other.
     
  15. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Even as you present verses that state exactly what I’m saying, you continue to resist the truth of that very thing you present.

    You say that the apostle expressed that God put his Holy Spirit on Jesus which gave Jesus the power to do good... yet you still claim that Jesus was God all along!! That’s so powerfully confusing!!!
     
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  16. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Groan....!!! Moorea944....!!!
     
  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    All the members of the Trinity are consubstantial.
     
  18. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Please can I ask you a few questions:?

    1) What does ‘Consubstatial’ mean?

    2) What does it mean to be a Christian?

    3) What does Jesus inherit at the end of time?

    4) Why do the writers of the Epistle scriptures only give greeting from the ‘GOD and Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ’, as separate persons and exclude the trinity third person of the Holy Spirit?

    Please answer with some relative detail, please!
     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    It means that Jesus and God the Father are of the same substance and essence.

    A follower of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus will rule the Millennium kingdom.

    That would support Jesus and the Father being of the same essence because why would mentioning the Trinity be necessary?
     
  20. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    So, skywalker, Jesus and God are the same essence and nature...
    So let me ask you this further: What is the ESSENCE and NATURE of God? Trinity banters these words around without ever explaining what they mean?

    Christian: So we are to follow JESUS... not GOD, then? Why are we to specifically follow Jesus if he is God? Why not both of them?
    But, Skywalker, what was the testament that Jesus brought to mankind and who gave it to him (Hint: Rev 1:1).

    Kingdom Rule: But skywalker, I thought you said Jesus created the created kingdom. If he did then why isn’t he ‘Father’ of all things (‘Father’ means: to bring an entity into being; to Give Life to an entity; to be the Head of an entity group. And why, since he is Almighty God, you say, is he to become ruler over “a Room in the Mansion of his Father”. i.e. The Father rules the endless spirit kingdom of Heaven while Jesus, who you say is the same Almighty god, gets to rule a meagre limited, physical, constrained, kingdom of creation?

    Mentioning the trinity: YOU have to mention the trinity as it only exists in your head.

    Skywalker, have you noticed that you HAVE NOT MENTIONED A TRINITY in your responses!!! Classic trinity failure. You have only mentioned two persons:
    And scriptures testifies to two only (in your trinity concept):
    1) Jesus said he was taught by the Father (no third person there)
    2) Jesus prayed to the Father (no third person there)
    3) Jesus said he was going to the Father (No third person there)
    4) Jesus said that the Father was the only true God. (No third person there)
    5) Stephen, on being stoned to death, saw Heaven opened and saw ALMIGHTY GOD SEATED ON THE THRONE and Jesus STANDING NEXT TO THE THRONE (no third person there!! And STANDING is a SERVILE position!!)
    6) The apostles only addressed TWO PERSONS in their epistles (no third person there)
    7) The Apostles baptised in the name of Jesus ONLY!!! (No three persons there)
    8) Revelations does not mention THREE PERSONS of God at any time
    9) The Holy Spirit OF GOD is SENT AS A GIFT... If is used to EMPOWER humans (Jesus and the Apostles.) If empowering Jesus makes him GOD then the apostles are ALSO GOD by your reckoning!!
    10) Jesus said to ‘Worship the Father’ (only one person...) We are to worship the Father THROUGH the name of Jesus Christ... (No third person there)
    11) Revelation says that ‘Praise, Honor, and Glory’ is given to both God and the [as if] slaughtered lamb - BUT ONLY “He who sat on the throne” received WORSHIP! (Definitely no third person mentioned there and only one worshiped one)

    Skywalker, you’ve got a whole heap of explaining to do to make your fallacy appear credit worthy... impossible, in fact!!
     
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