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Featured So Jesus is not God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Oeste, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe this is it.
    Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

    I believe Jesus is not the Father but is God because He is one with the Father.
    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

    I believe that may be so but it only means that God is the God of God. Who else would it be?
    Deut 5:7 “‘You shall have no other gods before me.

    I believe that is talking about authority not essence. It is a positional statement as my pastor likes to say. God in the position of His totality has more authority than God in a body.

    I believe God is always the same and coequal no matter where He is. So the idea of a higher authority is purely positional since God thinks the same thoughts no matter where He is.

    i believe I do.
     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe one member has the essence of God that is in the other two but will be different from the essences of the other two. Jesus is essentially God in one body. The father is essentially Spirit, the Paraclete is essentially God in us.
     
  3. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [I believe this is it.
    Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”]


    Great verse, isnt it!! But nothing about Jesus being God. Sorry....

    [I believe Jesus is not the Father but is God because He is one with the Father.
    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”]

    Being one with the father doesnt make Jesus God or "a God". Being one with someone means that you understand someone or your minds are synced into the same things. Jesus knew his father and did his father's will and manifested his father's charactor perfectly. That is why they are of the same mind.
    Arent you one with your wife or children?

    Now.... if that was true what "your" saying, then we are "Gods" too and part of that trinity thing. Look at John 17, it tells us that we are all one with Christ and God. So are we part of the trinity too?

    [I believe that may be so but it only means that God is the God of God. Who else would it be?
    Deut 5:7 “‘You shall have no other gods before me.]

    Not sure what you mean by this.... God is the God of God.....

    [I believe that is talking about authority not essence. It is a positional statement as my pastor likes to say. God in the position of His totality has more authority than God in a body.]
    Again, not sure what your saying here....

    [I believe God is always the same and coequal no matter where He is. So the idea of a higher authority is purely positional since God thinks the same thoughts no matter where He is.]
    Your making God co-equal with someone. Why? There is no one co-equal or equal with Yahweh. No one. Look at 1 Cor 11v3.

    Why cant you just believe in what the bible says about Jesus. He is the son of God and was born like us.... Just because Jesus's father is God, doesnt make him a God too. I think that's where your heading.....

    The messiah had to be born like us with the same nature. Look at what the people in the OT were told. They were NOT told that Jesus was already here in heaven, they were told about a coming Messiah to would exist someday. No one was told that the coming messiah would be a pre-existed God or a coming God.

    And who ever thinks that Jesus didnt come in the flesh is the anti-christ. Heb 2 tells us that Jesus was born and was like us. Nothing to do with being God or a God. .......
     
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  4. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Moorea944, you are (you’re) perfectly correct in your aspect of what you’re (you are) saying.

    (p.s. it’s “you’re” if you mean “you are”.
    It’s “your” if you mean “belonging to you”!!)
     
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  5. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the update. Have a wonderful day.
     
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  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Jesus, created in the same manner as Adam... that is, by means of the breath of the Lord God: YAHWEH.

    Jesus, called ‘The Son of God’... that is, the same title given to the first human Being, Adam (Luke 3:38).

    Jesus, entitled, ‘The Last Adam’... that is, the last human Being created directly by the Almighty God: YAHWEH.

    Jesus, the IMAGE of the Almighty Lord God: YAHWEH... that is, with nature, personality, outlook, wisdom, love, righteousness, forethought, self-living, vanity, forgiveness, creativity, ingenuity, ...

    (Note: nothing created is EQUAL or greater than that which created it... it would be an impossibility and a travesty of reality if such a thing were possible.

    Im not sure where in scriptures there is any claim that ‘A son is equal to his Father’ (see previous paragraph) but this too would be a travesty of reality... (We aren’t talking about achievements of the sin over his Father... In the normal course of events, the son inherits from the Father - Has it been heard of that a Father inherits from his son(s)? Moreover, if there are more than one son, are they all equal or greater than their same Father? Impossible! In saying all this, how is it supposedly said by the Jews that Jesus Christ ‘IS GOD’ because Jesus Christ said he is ‘The Son of [YAHWEH] God’? The Gospel of John states that being the Son of God meant being EQUAL to God ... and supposedly being EQUAL to God means ... uh!!... Being God!

    How extraordinary that anyone with even as little as an ounce of sense and linguistic ability should claim that something that is EQUAL (if that were possible) to another, IS THAT OTHER!! (So, one runner in a race makes a time of 1:35:458 and then another runner at the same race makes exactly the same time... who would say that runner two IS RUNNER ONE?)

    No! Jesus is NOT equal to God... indeed, Jesus told that to the Jews... And Phil 2 says that, although Jesus was endowed with the POWER OF GOD, he DID NOT SEEK TO BE GOD ... BUT INSTEAD... humbled himself...

    Can you envisage a man WITH ACCESS to great wealth (it is not HIS WEALTH but he has access to it) humbling himself to live as though poor to show others how they too can GAIN ACCESS to that great wealth! Well, that was Jesus Christ. He was not the owner of the Holy Spirit - the power and wealth of God - but he had access to it due to being righteous, holy, and sinless.

    Scriptures tells us that all mankind also has access to the Holy Spirit IF THEY TOO subject themselves to being righteous, sinless, and holy... but we know the thorn of the flesh pricks us away from such wondrousness.
     
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  7. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    ... addendum...

    An immortal eternal perfect and almighty God cannot be anything other than what he is (‘I am’, ‘I have always been’, ‘I will always be’). So, if trinity is true (perfectly false!!) then it is impossible for ONE PART of an COMPLETELY UNITY entity to be SEPARATED to become an MORTAL, imperfect, and certainly less than almighty HUMAN BEING.

    In realising the nonsense of the trinity concept, trinity supporters naturally jumped to its defence by claiming that Jesus ‘Switched’ from being “GOD” (and therefore being all that GOD is) to being “HUMAN” Gand all that HUMANITY is)... really??? When questioned on this and connection to “Multiple personality disorder”, Trinitarians become even more disingenuous than normal.

    Why?

    Because can you imagine calling Jesus, “Schizophrenic”!!!!!??

    But was he? Jesus said that ‘Only God is good’.... He certainly was not speaking of himself as ‘Good’, so Trinitarians are stuck... To get around this, they say Jesus WAS REFERRING TO HIMSELF... they say he was saying, ‘In my God form... I am good’!! But where do you read that in the scriptures????

    Of course, there is always the old trick they use saying, ‘Well, if you are saying Jesus WAS NOT GOD then you are saying Jesus was BAD!!’

    That’s FALSE... The trinitarian is LOCKING the answers to only TWO options... (1) He was Good, (2) he was Bad... but these are NOT THE ONLY ANSWERS... just think: ‘Not Sweet’ does not mean SOUR!!... ‘Not Up’ does not mean ‘Down’... the trinitarian is using a DESIGNER PROOF (mis-using it). Jesus was saying that ‘to himself, ‘good’ is not something for comparing to his Father’... Trinitarians effectively claim that Jesus IS HIS Father.....!!!

    Last phrase,... ‘I am in my Father and my Father is in me’, ‘we are one’... Which trinitarian would not leap to say that Jesus IS GOD if Jesus had said, ‘I and God are ONE’... so where is this different when Jesus says that he and his Father are one??
    Clearly, it’s because they do not WANT it to be so because it is absurd... (‘I am my own Father!!!’)

    It is for this snd many more like it that Trinitarians rarely engage in formal debates with credible discussion ‘proof text’ but instead refer to the man-made ‘Creeds’, which actually, are equally absurd when tested!! The creeds are designed to be believed without questioning!!
     
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  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe context is everything. Son of God means the same thing as God when you look a the context.

    I believe that is more a view from customary use but not the real meaning of "one." It adds "in mind" to the scripture when those words are not in the text. In case you didn't know, one means one and not two.

    I believe that is correct. With me you get God. However it is a prayer because it does not happen that way with everyone.

    I believe it is conceptual. God in a body is co-equal with God outside a body.

    I believe I do so why don't you?

    I believe that is patently incorrect. there is no "a God", He is God.

    I believe Isaiah told us that.
     
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Son of God" does not mean God, and that terminology was used by Jews as all believers are in essence "sons (and daughters) of God".

    OTOH, "Son of Man" is considered to be messianic.
     
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  10. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    Yes, context is everything, BUT, first, you need to read in context, NOT out of context. In context, ‘Son of God’ does NOT mean God, in fact, Jesus himself said so:
    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?John 10:34-36

    The context of this passage is that the Jews were accusing Jesus of blasphemy that is, they said Jesus claimed to be God the Son because he said he is the son of God. So, Jesus was asking the Jews back why was it NOT a blasphemy to them when in their own Law it was said they are all gods and yet, they all knew they are not truly gods but when Jesus says he’s the son of God, it’s blasphemy when he too is NOT God.

    Fact is, Jesus only knew the Old Testament, he has never heard of the New Testament in his whole life on earth. As such, Jesus would be very familiar with OT passages such as Isaiah 42:1, where God Himself referred to Jesus as “This is My Servant”, NOT “This is My Son”. So, clearly, when Jesus used the term ‘son of God’ or ‘God’s son’ to himself, he was referring to himself as someone who’s subservient to God, that is, a servant of God. It's only in the NT, that the authors began to predominantly use the term ‘Son of God’ to describe Jesus in an obvious attempt to project him as God the Son.
     
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  11. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [I believe context is everything. Son of God means the same thing as God when you look a the context.]
    Your kidding me, right?.....

    So, you have a son as old as his father, Jesus learned and suffered to be perfect, yet is co-equal with his father.... doesnt make sense, does it.... of course not...

    [I believe that is more a view from customary use but not the real meaning of "one." It adds "in mind" to the scripture when those words are not in the text. In case you didn't know, one means one and not two.]
    Not sure where your going with this.... Jesus was one with the father, but it doesnt make him God. If that is the case your trying to make, then we are all God too. John 17

    [I believe it is conceptual. God in a body is co-equal with God outside a body.]
    Ughhhhhh......

    [I believe I do so why don't you?]
    I dont believe in the trinity because it is false doctrine. Trinity was "added into" religion around 325 AD with Emperor Constantine.

    [I believe that is patently incorrect. there is no "a God", He is God.]
    Not sure why you really want Jesus to be God? STill having a hard time with that. Doesn't scripture say that he was a man and the son of God? If Jesus was a God on the cross, the atonement goes right out the window.

    [I believe Isaiah told us that.]
    Told us what? Your not matching up with what people are saying so it is hard to know where your questions and answers are coming from..... Can you match it up, would love to know what your referring to... Thanks
     
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  12. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    I am confused by all the different coloured writing... who is saying what to whom about which aspect of the nonsense under discussion here?

    ‘God’ is not a PERSON!!!

    ‘God’ is the TITLE of a PERSON!!

    Think of ‘Monarch’ or ‘King’. These are TITLES of a RULING PERSON,

    Therefore there can be MANY MONARCHS AND MANY KINGS in the same frame as there can be MANY GODS.

    The ‘many Gods’ of the scriptures is referring to (from a Christian standpoint) PAGAN RULERSHIP by spiritual Persons as with the Greeks, Romans, Philistines, Egyptians, etc... From our Christian point of view we have ONLY ONE SPIRIT RULER...YAHWEH, by NAME.

    So saying, this ONE... this ONLY .. God, created a PHYSICAL WORLD to reflect his glorious SPIRIT WORLD and created an IMAGE OF SPIRIT HIMSELF to RULE OVER this PHYSICAL WORLD.

    This ONLY GOD glorifies in his creation and in the image of himself (by the way, ‘image’ means ‘Likeness of personality... love, vanity, wisdom, creativity, design, authority over kind, righteousness (do the right thing always),’ ... Most of these things are not in any other created Beings, you note!! IT DOES NOT MEAN “God from God” as farcical trinity claims (even as it itself says there is only one God it claims this only God created a Son [Son God] ... which is purely Pagan! And then it itself DENIES the very created Son it just claimed was ‘from eternity’... the warped thinking being that because the son, they deny was created, was created from eternity means he wasn’t created at all.... can you believed the diabolical logic of trinity thinkers (basically, it’s just disingenuous mindsets desperately clinging to impossible concepts).

    Our only God sought, seeks, to put a RULING HUMAN as HEAD OVER THE CREATED WORLD...

    Adam, the first created human, was meant to be that RULER, as he is FATHER of all mankind. However, since he sinned, he fell away from that entitlement. So, as scriptures says, “The first sins and another is brought up to replace him” (paraphrased).

    We see this theme deeply and repeatedly expressed in the children of the leading patriarchs:
    • Cain was first; sinned by killing Abel; Seth was brought up to replace him as GLORIFIED SON
    • Ishmael was most beloved of Abraham until he sinned... Isaac was brought up to replace him and became, by scriptural terms, the ONLY SON of Abraham (only son of the covenant) despite Abraham having other children
    • Jacob replaced the sinful first born of his Father, Isaac
    • Joseph was most beloved over the elder brother causing them to try to kill Joseph (the story being a prophecy of the coming Jesus’ life in being killed (put into the pit) by his jealous human brothers
    • David replaced the sinful first human king, Saul, also, replaced the first born of Jessy as being most beloved (the first born Son was seen in Jewish terms as the most beloved (“FIRSTBORN” ... note the different spelling over ‘First Born’, which is chronological, in time)
    • Solomon replaced his elder brothers who thought they should rule after their Father but were sinful in their attitude and behaviour even down to attempting a seizure of the throne... another prophecy if you can see it!!!
    • And guess what??? Satan sought to seize the rulership over the created world which was destined for a human ruler: ‘Bug this new world to come will by no means e rules by angels’ (check your scriptures). This means that AT THIS TIME Angels are OVERSEER, STEWARDS, PLACEHOLDERS, over the created world awaiting the time when humankind is MATURE enough to take their RULERSHIP POSITIONS... angels will then relinquish these ‘Stations’ to those of humanity that YAHWEH puts in place (but yet, not YAHWEH, himself but Jesus Christ!! You know, much like President-Elect, Biden, will replace the disreputable Trump administration - politically speaking!!)
    People, why don’t you all see the simple truthful concept...!!!

    Why are you’ll dabbling in your nonsense and misunderstanding of scriptures... still, scriptures does say that: ‘God will send them a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie!!’

    I hope and pray you are not one caught in that web of the delusion!!!
     
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  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    That verse is a reference to the Sonship of Jesus in the Trinity.
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah referred to Jesus as the Everlasting Father.
     
  15. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Er, guys, it’s not!!!

    A ‘Son of God’ is ‘ANYONE’ who fully carries out the Will of Almighty God. It is that Jesus Christ is the ONLY human Being who is doing so.

    Note that the Heavenly Spirit Angels are ALSO ‘[spirit] Sons of God’... ask why are they called so.
    Is it perhaps because they ‘do absolutely the Will and Works of their Father God’? Heavenly angels (not Demon/ fallen) angels delight in doing their spirit fathers Will and know that failure means destruction (it is a positive loving FEAR as they know no other way to act! Why, for instance, would anyone seek to do something for a monarch halfheartedly knowing that incomplete operation means an insult to the monarch and thus be a defect in themself! It is absolutely natural to seek to delightfully do as commanded and gain greater glory from that monarch!)

    Note that Luke 3:38 describes the first man, Adam, as ‘Son of God’,.. because from his creation up until he sinned by failing to follow the command of his Father God, Adam was SINLESS, Holy, righteous in all his ways... doing all things that God commanded of him... hmmm... repeat the description of ‘Son of God’ again!!!!

    One more thing: SPIRIT (and Almighty God is Spirit) does not PROCREATE.... (I.e. man from man, animal from animal, insect from insect, microbe from microbe...) Only the created world PROCREATES... therefore there can be no such thing as ‘God from God’... SPIRIT only CREATES (God is FATHER of Spirits - which is CREATION - not Procreation!!) Any insinuation that Jesus PROCREATED SPIRIT SON of God would mean that God broke his own rule! And God cannot break his own rules - he IS NOT GOD if he did: Perfection cannot decided to be IMPERFECT and yet claim to be still Perfect!!!
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    There's a difference between being a son of God and being the Son of God. The sons of God in Genesis is a reference to the godly line of Seth. Heavenly angels and Adam are sons of God but not the Son of God. The title son of God isn't a reference to Jesus being the biological Son of God-its a reference to the Sonship of Jesus. Do you think Muslims believe in Jesus because they also believe in his virgin birth.
     
  17. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Hi, I’m not going into other religions ... I’m speaking about Christian belief as shown in the Christian Bible.

    ‘A Son of God’ is ‘ANYONE’ who follows Almighty God’s command, does his Will, loves righteousness, and hates sinfulness.

    There is not a single human being on earth now or in the past, save Adam before he sinned, and Jesus Christ ongoing, who fits the Bill as ‘A son of God’.

    The reason for Jesus being called ‘THE SON OF GOD’ is EXACTLY because he IS THE ONLY ONE of humanity who does as described above. But we are told in the scriptures that in time to come the testament of Jesus concerning the Father, almighty God, Will lead MANY to become ‘SONS OF GOD’.

    Trinity persons have corrupted the Christian belief and claim a ‘God from God’ Sonship relationship between God and Jesus.

    But think about it............ How can Jesus be ‘God’ and then we still say,
    • ‘God said to Jesus’
      • This clearly implies a monarchical entity and a servile individual: Contradiction: God is not servile... God described Jesus as ‘My Servant...!’
    • ‘God raised up Jesus’
      • Did Jesus raise himself up from being dead... doesn’t Scripture say that if was THE FATHER who raised him up: a contradiction unless you believe that Jesus IS the Father - a further conundrum and contradiction!
    • ‘Jesus sat down next to God’
      • If Jesus IS God then he cannot be BESIDE HIMSELF. That would certainly mean TWO GODS!!! So by trinity, a conundrum, a contraction, a farcical nonsense!!
    • ‘As the Father has life [giving powers] in himself SO HE HAS GRANTED Jesus to have life [giving powers] in him’
      • This is carried out when Jesus ‘gives everlasting life to the selected righteous people at the end of time: hence fulfilling Isaiah in which Jesus is described as ‘EVERLASTING FATHER’
    • ‘God gave Jesus the power and authority to reign for a thousand years’
      • If Jesus IS GOD then why is he GIVEN power and authority for a limited period of time. Surely he would already have such power and authority - and certainly it could not be taken away from him - Who is ‘taking it back’??
    Please please please understand what you are saying ....
     
  18. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is most definitely a father without having to be Yahweh Himself. We understand the process and timing when Jesus becomes a father on the basis of Isaiah 53:10... when the Messiah makes himself an offering for sin he will see his seed (his descendants). It is on the basis of Christ sacrificing himself that he can have children. Aren't we born again through baptism, joining Jesus in his death and resurrection through the baptismal grave?!!

    In this same context the saints will qualify as priests in the Kingdom Age, In the First Kingdom Age the priests had to be the sons of the High Priest (from Aaron down). Therefore the priests (immortal) of the restored Kingdom Age will also have to be the children of the High Priest Jesus told Nicodemus (John 3) that one has to be born again in order to enter the Kingdom. Well Jesus is the Father for this rebirth, on the basis of his sacrifice (as noted in Isaiah 53:10).
    The fact that Jesus qualifies for the title of "Everlasting" Father is the fact that those born again through him will inherit everlasting life. The difference between Christ and God in the context of "everlasting" is that God is from everlasting and to everlasting. Jesus is only to everlasting, as he had an origin... but he will be the father of those who inherit everlasting life.

    Abraham is also given the title "Father" as he is the Father of the faithful and those baptized into Christ are constituted his children on the basis of faith (Gal 3:27-29). Abraham will qualify as an "Everlasting Father" as well, as he will inherit everlasting life.

    There is no reason why a son can't also be a father. I am both a son and a father. My father had a father. The difference is that Yahweh had no beginning. He has no father, unlike Jesus. I certainly have a father, but when (if) I am born again I will necessarily have a new father. That will be Jesus, who also had a father, but his Father didn't have a father.

    Hope this helps.

    But also keep in mind... I think that your already going into the bible with the mindset of Jesus is God. That's not good.....
     
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  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    How can Jesus be the Messiah but not God?
     
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Where do you get that from?

    The text doesn’t say ‘the Father sent His Son.’ If It did, you might have a more valid reason for making that statement.

    No....it says “God.” Which, according to your Trinitarian view, is ‘all three.’

    The account harmonizes with Paul’s inspired words at 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, where he differentiates God from Jesus...”there is actually to us, one God, the Father.....; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ”

    Take care.
     
    #760 Hockeycowboy, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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