So-called 'Brahman' that has no gunas, is that even possible?

[Viswa]

expand/contract, no. Pulsate, that is its inherent property.
I am not sure about space/time. As I mentioned they may be derivatives of energy. I will wait for science to tell us more.
Individual (things/vegetation/animals/humans) are illusions. There is no individualization in energy.

Remember what Ishavasya Upanishad says:
"Purnamadah, punamidam, purnat purnam udachyate;
purnasya purnam adaya, purnam eva vasishyate."
That is whole, this is whole, from that whole arises this whole;
give the whole from the whole, the remainder is still the whole.

Sorry Aup. I had forgotten those. Also, I couldn't understand by reading the post now. By reading now, I couldn't understand what "that" whole and "this" whole are pointed at. Maybe we have freedom to assume whatever we want to be pointed as "that" and "this"? I don't know that either.

As I said I don't speak Vedanta/scriptures, all time I replied in a sense that "I understood scriptures/Vedanta/religions/science/etc.", but really those are only my own misunderstandings (false beliefs?), which can be very foolish and proof-less and wrong to say.

 

[ajay0]

If there is a relative reality, then one can understand. it's like understanding a Snake (it's birth-colour-form-behaviour-etc), which is not there. Also is there an Absolute Reality?

Just Brahman. Neither Relative nor Absolute Reality.

In the absolute reality, the unitary consciousness exists as the primary reality. This is what the enlightened sage perceives.

Prajñanam brahma - Brahman is pure consciousness (Aitareya Upanishad 3.3 of the Rig Veda)


It is in the relative reality, that diversity is perceived by the unenlightened dualistic mind . The sayings of the enlightened sages Anandamayi Ma and Shivayogini Matha will help to clarify this.

“There is One unchanging indivisible Reality which, though unmanifest, reveals Itself in infinite multiplicity and diversity.” ~ Anandamayi Ma

'It is through the multiplicity of name and form that one can arrive at the One. It is from this One that this Infinite Variety has manifested. In the end all return to that effulgent One.'~ Shivayogini Matha (1923-1981)

 

[ajay0]

So, Brahman is not the doer and yet its nature/swabhava IS?

Its like saying the sun is not giving us light or heat ... and only its rays are.

Doership emphasizes the egoic 'I' and not the actual functioning.

Doership emphasizes the egoic 'I' while Brahman is of the nature of pure consciousness without conception.

In deep meditation or karma yoga when there is bliss within, the conceptual 'I' is not present. When the conceptual 'I' arises through habitual thinking and emoting, the bliss disappears as well.

Ramesh Baleskar elaborates on awareness/pure consciousness and the egoic mind/"me" ...

Is there an impersonal or functional will that is part of the body-mind mechanism?

A concept which I found useful in speaking about this very point is to notionally divide the mind into the working mind and the thinking mind. Thinking mind is a conceptualizing mind, the "me." What is absent after enlightenment is the thinking mind, the "me" distinguishing itself from the other. The conceptualizing thinking mind, the mind which draws upon memories and projects fears, hopes and ambitions: that is absent. The working mind is what remains. ~ Ramesh Baleskar

 

[Aupmanyav]

That (Brahman) is the whole This Brahman (ourselves) also is the whole.
Each and every part of the universe is Brahman. Sort of 'Holographic' principle.
But understanding will come to you in time. Your present time is for something else.

 

[Viswa]

. Your present time is for something else.

"Yup. To delude myself and hurt others, this is my present time, not for understanding and not a person to live with people and have a good relationship (No joyful situation will be there in an environment where this idiot is present). What's there gonna be other than this, for a fool and loser? "
- a fool's blabber..

So, the stupid's blabbering ends and he remains silence as a loser.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Doership emphasizes the egoic 'I' and not the actual functioning.

Doership emphasizes the egoic 'I' while Brahman is of the nature of pure consciousness without conception.

In deep meditation or karma yoga when there is bliss within, the conceptual 'I' is not present. When the conceptual 'I' arises through habitual thinking and emoting, the bliss disappears as well.

Ramesh Baleskar elaborates on awareness/pure consciousness and the egoic mind/"me" ...

Removing the sense of doership or the egoic me-ness (as advised by Krishna in the Gita) will probably help us break free from the shackles of karma but won't stop all the activities from taking place in this world.

At the universal level, it is saguna Ishwara, granting boons, performing miracles and keeping the universe in order. They're all acts (even if the sense of doership is absent in Him). Its the same with jivas. Even in the absence of doership, the minds and bodies made out of the 5 elements are responsible for all actions.

Are these minds and bodies made from maya/prakriti/5 elements different from Brahman in Advaita?

If they are simply waves of the same ocean, then isn't it ME the infinite Brahman doing all deeds with the finite body/mind by appearing as a jiva?

 

[ameyAtmA]

By energy, I always mean 'physical energy' and not any 'divine energy'.
The workings of 'physical energy' (Brahman) are not random, they follow there own laws. However, we do not know all those laws.
Brahman does not form anything. All formed things are illusion. Brahman has no need to form anything.

My entire effort at passive voice and the "PLEASE NOTE the use of passive voice" went waste it seems
I said delegates "appear", and "are formed" and delegates are not even physical. Did I say Brahman forms them? Active voice? I did not as that would imply deliberate doer-ship.

Besides, the fact that you mention "the workings of physical energy" means you acknowledge that some work took place.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Removing the sense of doership or the egoic me-ness (as advised by Krishna in the Gita) will probably help us break free from the shackles of karma

It definitely will as KRshNa assures.

but won't stop all the activities from taking place in this world.

Perspective and angle.

At the universal level, it is saguna Ishwara, granting boons, performing miracles and keeping the universe in order. They're all acts (even if the sense of doership is absent in Him). Its the same with jivas. Even in the absence of doership, the minds and bodies made out of the 5 elements are responsible for all actions.

Oh but the moment the doership is gone, there will be a leap in consciousness, and the actions will be very very very different, in fact, most unnecessary actions will be eliminated.

Are these minds and bodies made from maya/prakriti/5 elements different from Brahman in Advaita?

If they are simply waves of the same ocean, then isn't it ME the infinite Brahman doing all deeds with the finite body/mind by appearing as a jiva?

All beings are in ME but I AM not in them. Behold MY mystic opulence O Arjuna! (BG chapter 9)
I am beyond the waves although the waves are a part of Me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Besides, the fact that you mention "the workings of physical energy" means you acknowledge that some work took place.

Since I accept inherent properties of Brahman (physical energy), therefore what happens depends on the working of 'physical energy'. Energy pulsates.

 

[ameyAtmA]

what happens depends on the working of 'physical energy'. Energy pulsates.

So we are saying the same thing when it comes to "something naturally happens WITHIN Bramh" although we differ on the completeness of Bramh' or Bramh to me is a superset of what Bramh' is to you.
Just that I used passive voice and never used active voice regarding Bramh' as you thought I did.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I use present tense because it happens all the time, actively, never stops, because it is an inherent property, IMHO.

 

[Viswa]

You are at the beginning of the journey while I am at the end of it. I complete my 80th year on Sept. 16, and step into the 81st.

Hello Aup. I have a doubt (very deep doubt) regarding this age factor.

I had dialogues with people in one Krishnamurti forums. Not just that, but in my day-to-day life too, will people hear or try to listen to someone, only if he/she has more age but not to a less-aged (below 30) person?

The eligibility to share things for people to listen and inquire/dialogue, is only vested with those high aged person (considering only they have experience to speak but not young)?

Why is it so? Why people don't want to hear to young person (or fools like me)?
If it is in practical work, then maybe experience matters. But, is it applicable to listen/inquire in case of psychology/spirituality too?

Please let me know about this, I'm very curious why young one is rejected as not eligible to speak, and the aged person (above 30/40) never have to listen to young.

What if the young can understand what people thinks/behaves, what's really going on in world? What if some kind of memories or easily grasping mechanism happens within young person to understand even though there is limitations of age factor?
Young ones do not share/inquire with them and have to keep their mouth shut and only accepts what aged persons say, until they attain high age or until 'enlightened'? Then, after attaining 'eligible' age, they don't have to listen to young, and can make those young to strictly obey to them by accepting what they say and never question them?

Thank you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The eligibility to share things for people to listen and inquire/dialogue, is only vested with those high aged person (considering only they have experience to speak but not young)?

I have no prejudice against age. Many people here are younger than me but have more knowledge about things. @Polymath257 is an example. He is around 60 and I am 80. He knows far more about cosmology and Quantum Mechanics than I do. I read his posts very eagerly. Others also are very informed, @Subduction Zone for example. He is 65. I am not well read as they are, I know nothing about Western Philosophy. I only have rudimentary knowledge of Hindu and Buddhist philosophies.
I know my limitations, but I also know that I have hit gold in 'Advaita' philosophy.

 

[Viswa]

I have no prejudice against age. Many people here are younger than me but have more knowledge about things. @Polymath257 is an example. He is around 60 and I am 80. He knows far more about cosmology and Quantum Mechanics than I do. I read his posts very eagerly. Others also are very informed, @Subduction Zone for example. He is 65. I am not well read as they are, I know nothing about Western Philosophy. I only have rudimentary knowledge of Hindu and Buddhist philosophies.
I know my limitations, but I also know that I have hit gold in 'Advaita' philosophy.

Very happy to hear about you Aup.
But, this kind of age issue is 'normal' with people in spiritual/religious/dialogue community, like it is 'normal' in practical cases?

Because, I don't know whether people gets hurt only because of this age issue, when an young age person questions/inquire with them rather than accepting them as respect to their age/experience?

If it is, then I feel strongly to my heart, that I won't act like 'in-line' with them by asking questions/inquiry, and speak only if I am 'enlightened' (even if I attain old age, I don't know whether people might hear/listen/observe them, as I am a 'fool and loser'), and show respect to them by accepting what they say with my silence. This time, I highly feel that, I will keep my word.

 

[ajay0]

"Yup. To delude myself and hurt others, this is my present time, not for understanding and not a person to live with people and have a good relationship (No joyful situation will be there in an environment where this idiot is present). What's there gonna be other than this, for a fool and loser? "
- a fool's blabber..

So, the stupid's blabbering ends and he remains silence as a loser.

Dude, low self-esteem will not get you anywhere.

The path of spirituality is considered to be like walking on the edge of the razor.

By being in noble company or satsang, you can stop being a fool and attain wisdom.

By being in foolish company or dussang, you might end up as a fool for many life-times, and keep perpetually wondering about it.

It's all your choice, and your choices create yourself.

"Focus not on the results, but on your attitude, mindset and the process.”. ~ Amit Ray

And the quality of your attitude and mindset is always dependent on your own choice.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Of course, I am enlightened, which does not mean that I know everything. Enlightenment means understood the overall scheme of things betterr than others. For details, there are experts like @exchemist, @shunyadragon, who know more about their subject.

 

[Viswa]

Dude, low self-esteem will not get you anywhere.

The path of spirituality is considered to be like walking on the edge of the razor.

By being in noble company or satsang, you can stop being a fool and attain wisdom.

By being in foolish company or dussang, you might end up as a fool for many life-times, and keep perpetually wondering about it.

It's all your choice, and your choices create yourself.

"Focus not on the results, but on your attitude, mindset and the process.”. ~ Amit Ray

And the quality of your attitude and mindset is always dependent on your own choice.

Thank you sir. It's true. Timely advice.

But, what if I am with noble-company and satsang, and hurt them too with my foolishness?? Will I not be thrown away from there?

I feel, more than low-esteem, it's true esteem sir. I am not fit for noble company (also with dussang), because anywhere I am there, no joy/pleasure - only hurt remains, as I feel I can't be 'in-line' with people wherever I am if I talk.

So, what if, I remain silent, both in satsang and dussang??

My life's importance as of now is sir, not to attain wisdom, but to not hurt people with my presence and words. If my presence also hurts, then I m sure will withdraw and go himalayas/etc., so no situation will go adverse because of me and everyone would be happy.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If they are wise, they will not throw you away. If they are charlatans, then also they will not throw you away. They will try to make use of you.
Do whatever you want to do, but first fulfill your familial duties, that is all that I want to say to you.

 

[Viswa]

If they are wise, they will not throw you away. If they are charlatans, then also they will not throw you away. They will try to make use of you.

Yeah, even a stone is useful for Bhakthi marga (wise) and money-making (charlatans).

But, what if there is a stone which is useful for nothing (no one - both wise and charlatans)? Not useful for cave/building, not useful for weapon, not useful as idol/sculpture, not useful even to keep at museum?
And, whomever holds that stone, only pain remains?
That's me.
Sir, are you interested in astrology?
My DOB is 21.08.1997 born at 01:20 PM. Few Astrologers said that this horoscope holder is a sin to the family. If you have any astrologer friend, you may show the horoscope. Guru is weak, Ketu is in 4th house, Mars and Venus are weak. Rahu is with Mercury.
Anyone, who gonna be with me, only hell remains.

It's not that I don't want to change the fate/etc., but what is said is mostly a fact.

If it changes, it's fine too. I don't want to be stuck in it. But, if at all karma is there, it cannot be escaped even though postponed. I'm not interested to change them with rituals/special stones/remedial measures, and face them whatever it might be, as I'm not interested in living, but living only for the sake of living without any regret upon life.

Mostly, my Horoscope says, even early sanyasa is suitable for me.

Even, you know, one astrologer said "I'm a curse to the family"

Do whatever you want to do, but first fulfill your familial duties, that is all that I want to say to you.

That's right sir. Duties, no way I gonna escape. But, in what way to fulfil them?, That's where I'm very much confused about.

As of now, looking for a low level job (even for part-time job to earn monthly 100$), so that I can satisfy my parents worries of me being in home in the name of 'studies' for too long.
Then, future, I don't know.... Let the waves take me along??!!!

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's me.
Sir, are you interested in astrology?
Mostly, my Horoscope says, even early sanyasa is suitable for me.
As of now, looking for a low level job (even for part-time job to earn monthly 100$), ..

You are not that. Don't devalue yourself.
No, I do not believe in astrology.
Sannyasa is the fourth stage of life, not now. At the moment 'dharma' calls you.
OK. Make a start somewhere and do your work deligently.