Snowflakes....designed or accidents of nature?

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you know what kind of life God purposed for man in the beginning? He placed humans in a garden of pleasure and gave them the opportunity to live forever in perfect health and happiness.

Why does nothing outside of the Bible support this? How do you know God intended humans to live forever, as this is not, anywhere, not once, implied in the Bible.

All he asked for was obedience to one simple command.

For some of us, quite naturally, obedience is not in our nature. If something does not work, it is very normal, rather actually quite predictable, that I will rebel against it and reject it.

Man chose this life.

I did not choose this life. I did not choose to have bad knees. I did not choose to be autistic. I did not choose to be transgender. I did not choose to be bullied in school. I did not choose to have an absent father and emotionally abusive mother.
But all these things I did not choose have a profound impact on who I am today.

How many starving children would there be if all mankind shared their resources and loved one another? Put the blame where it lies.

I am. If God designed everything, then how we treat each other is a part of his design, because he did, after all, design everything.

Personally, I think his handling of matters is brilliant.

You may want to take a hard look at life throughout the planet, the hostility of our solar system, and the hostilities faced here on earth. There are so many things that cause such horrible suffering that if God designed things to be the way the are and/or allowed things to become as they are, God is a cruel, sick, and sadistic *******. Cancer, parasites, flesh eating bacteria, this design, or neglect, however you look at it, is so horrible (and even I, who has no sense of empathy, can see this) that the only valid conclusion to be made from ID is that God is a very cruel, very mean, heartless, cruel, and sadistic tyrannical psychopath that would let thousands of generations suffer in ways that the average Westerner just cannot understand or comprehend. If God designed everything as is, why is it that so many children have perished from a slow, painful, and agonizing death while we have sat comfortably, privileged, fed, hydrated, and hardly a real concern in the world while families have lost children while I type and post this?

 

[JayJayDee]

Why does nothing outside of the Bible support this? How do you know God intended humans to live forever, as this is not, anywhere, not once, implied in the Bible.

Well actually, it is plainly implied in the Bible. Read through the Genesis account and you will see that there was only one stated cause of death in the garden....eating the fruit of one designated tree.....but people forget about the other tree in the garden...."the tree of life" for which there was initially no prohibition.

After Adam had disobeyed, look what God said in Gen 3:22-24....

"God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever, —” With that God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."

Only after Adam had been disobedient was this tree placed off limits. God went to an awful lot of trouble to prevent humans from ever accessing that tree again. Wickedness had now entered human consciousness, which would see a murderer produced within one generation....such was the power of sin. God was not going to permit now sinful humans to live forever.

For some of us, quite naturally, obedience is not in our nature. If something does not work, it is very normal, rather actually quite predictable, that I will rebel against it and reject it.

I did not choose this life. I did not choose to have bad knees. I did not choose to be autistic. I did not choose to be transgender. I did not choose to be bullied in school. I did not choose to have an absent father and emotionally abusive mother.
But all these things I did not choose have a profound impact on who I am today.

I can understand why you feel this way. That is a heavy load to carry. Autism certainly does not help with any of it. But being mad at the world or at God solves nothing. We can be negative about everything or we can try to look for answers.
Who will God respond to....an aggressive complainer or a humble seeker? What do you think?

I have not had a great life either, but I didn't blame God for it. I looked for explanations and I searched until I found them.
Understanding the big picture helped me to see why God has handled things the way he has.

If God designed everything, then how we treat each other is a part of his design, because he did, after all, design everything.

Do you think that God made a mistake in giving us free choice? This is one of the ways we are made in his image and likeness. He gets to make choices and wanted us to be able to do the same. Choices make life interesting and enjoyable.

When I lived in the country, I would often go up to areas overlooking a beautiful water catchment. Cows were grazing on the sides of the hill and it struck me that they never looked up except to see another patch of grass. A magnificent vista was right there but the cows were totally oblivious. Was God wrong in not making us like them? I don't believe so. He didn't want robots, he wanted us to have choices to enhance our enjoyment of every day. Was it a mistake? Remember that there was no knowledge of evil, so our choices were never supposed to cause harm to anyone.

You may want to take a hard look at life throughout the planet, the hostility of our solar system, and the hostilities faced here on earth. There are so many things that cause such horrible suffering that if God designed things to be the way the are and/or allowed things to become as they are, God is a cruel, sick, and sadistic *******. Cancer, parasites, flesh eating bacteria, this design, or neglect, however you look at it, is so horrible (and even I, who has no sense of empathy, can see this) that the only valid conclusion to be made from ID is that God is a very cruel, very mean, heartless, cruel, and sadistic tyrannical psychopath that would let thousands of generations suffer in ways that the average Westerner just cannot understand or comprehend. If God designed everything as is, why is it that so many children have perished from a slow, painful, and agonizing death while we have sat comfortably, privileged, fed, hydrated, and hardly a real concern in the world while families have lost children while I type and post this?

Many feel the same way as you do. But you all are making your determinations with limited human understanding.
Most take everything at face value but there is so much more to it than that. The Bible explains things very clearly but most people are too lazy to dig for the "hidden treasure". That is their loss.

The children and families undergoing suffering at this moment are not suffering because God is causing the problems.
You can choose to be as mad as hell, but what good does it do. What is improved by your anger? The world would continue as it is with man's inhumanity to man perpetuated forever, but God promises to intervene soon. These are the days when the truth was to be made known in all the world. Human nature being what it is, Jesus told us not to expect a good reception. (Matt 24:36-39) When he does step in, then all will have a record of either faithful service to God or a record of rebellion. The Creator does not operate in earth years. He is a timeless being who had to deal first with rebellion in the spirit world. It spread to the earth when satan hijacked the human race and held them to ransom. God paid the ransom price (the life of his son) in order to secure the release of Adam's children but in the meantime we are proving what kind of people we are by the way we respond to the message about his kingdom. (Matt 24:14)

Just as a parent may allow their child to undergo a painful operation in order for them to benefit in the long term, God has his reasons for allowing the pain of the present to offset the joy of an infinite future where wickedness will not exist.

Don't sell the Creator short....there are good reasons for why God has handled things the way he has.

 

[It's Ya Girl Jesus' Wife]

I would hope said hypothetical creator has better things to do than design billions and billions of individual snowflakes while thousands of children starve to death every day.

E="Shadow Wolf, post: 4204445, member: 2558"]I would hope said hypothetical creator has better things to do than design billions and billions of individual snowflakes while thousands of children starve to death every day.[/QUOTE]

God doesn't have to design billions of snowflakes. He speaks things into existence so it doesn't require a lot of time for Him to do anything. The snowflakes being different is something God put in place along time ago during the creation of the world. As for the starving children, God has commanded that YOU go feed the starving, dying children.

 

[McBell]

As for the starving children, God has commanded that YOU go feed the starving, dying children.

That makes him an even bigger ***, now doesn't it?

 

[`mud]

WOW !
~
'mud

 

[leibowde84]

Amazing macro-photography of individual snowflakes [10 Pictures]

Please take a look at these amazing photographs. Do you see design in these beautifully crafted snowflakes?

No two are alike and there is no way to appreciate them with the naked eye. There is only this very special kind of photography that allows us to see what amazing things the Creator has made, just because he can.

Blows me away.

Why do you think that they have to be designed? I love electron microscope pics of snowflakes ... have one as my screensaver actually, but I fail to see why they must be designed. I mean, they are just a product of how water molecules behave when frozen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever, —” With that God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."

This does not imply that God inteneded humans to live forever, but rather that sense Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge God had to make sure they also did not eat from the Tree of Life.

But being mad at the world or at God solves nothing.

Where did I say I was mad at god? It's really hard to be mad at something you don't believe exist. Angry or happy, it doesn't change the fact that I deal with a ton of stuff in my life that I did not choose.

Most take everything at face value but there is so much more to it than that. The Bible explains things very clearly but most people are too lazy to dig for the "hidden treasure". That is their loss.

I used to be very conservative. It's better if you don't assume I have a poor understanding and knowledge of the Bible.

God has his reasons for allowing the pain of the present to offset the joy of an infinite future where wickedness will not exist.

If God has these reasons, then these bad things are a part of God's plan/design.

As for the starving children, God has commanded that YOU go feed the starving, dying children.

So, rather than the loving, merciful, and benevolent God taking care of this, he expects others to go do his work for him? He sent mana from Heaven for the wandering Jews. Why does he not send sustenance to those who need it today? And when we humans do try and send large scale aid, why does god allow dictators and tyrants to claim that aid for themselves and deny it to the people who need it?

 

[jonathan180iq]

Amazing macro-photography of individual snowflakes [10 Pictures]

Please take a look at these amazing photographs. Do you see design in these beautifully crafted snowflakes?

No two are alike and there is no way to appreciate them with the naked eye. There is only this very special kind of photography that allows us to see what amazing things the Creator has made, just because he can.

Blows me away.

Shattering a piece of glass can produce incredibly intricate and beautiful designs and, I would image, very rarely produce the same break pattern. Is the shattering of glass evidence of design or randomness?

 

[`mud]

JayJay said: "... most people are too lazy to dig for the "hidden treasure"...

Why is the 'treasure' hidden, why would your God hide anything ?
~
'mud

 

[JayJayDee]

Why do you think that they have to be designed? I love electron microscope pics of snowflakes ... have one as my screensaver actually, but I fail to see why they must be designed. I mean, they are just a product of how water molecules behave when frozen.

But why does ice behave this way? The mechanism is pre-programmed to produce the most amazing patterns.....ones we can't even see unaided.

When we use electron microscopes we see the same incredible beauty and perfection that we see in the world we can see with the naked eye. The same beauty and perfection that images from space allow us to see on the opposite end of the microscopic scale. If we were like animals, none of that would mean anything. We alone have an appreciation of beauty and aesthetics. When we see Fibonacci designs in nature...mathematical perfection in the heart of a sunflower for example.....we appreciate the perfection, but all animals see is food.

Snowflakes, like other designs in the natural world were not appreciated until our view of the microscopic world was opened up to us.....and yet there is something incredibly different about them.....unlike living things that are identical, and stay true to their originals, there are no two the same. The is creative genius taken to the nth degree. It is the perfectionist taking his talents into a realm that was not discovered until relatively recent times. Like buried treasure, when we have the implements to "mine" it, we become rich all over again!

Who among believers is not moved to thank the Creator when we see something incredibly beautiful in nature? That is natural for me.

 

[JayJayDee]

This does not imply that God inteneded humans to live forever, but rather that sense Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge God had to make sure they also did not eat from the Tree of Life.

And yet, what would have happened if they had eaten from the tree of life? God clearly stated that they would have lived forever. Why did God make that tree off limits only AFTER sin had entered the world?

Where did I say I was mad at god? It's really hard to be mad at something you don't believe exist. Angry or happy, it doesn't change the fact that I deal with a ton of stuff in my life that I did not choose.

Lots of people have "stuff" happening in their life. I have "stuff" to deal with too. But we have two choices. Sit around and whine...or make the best of it.
It's very much a "glass half empty / glass half full" kinda thing. Autism may make that choice a little more difficult for you.

I used to be very conservative. It's better if you don't assume I have a poor understanding and knowledge of the Bible.

That statement was meant to be general not personal. I try not to assume anything bout anyone.
Poor understanding of the Bible is rife in Christendom. I know this from personal experience. We meet people from all faiths in our ministry and we encounter it on a regular basis. Many who are church-goers have the attitude that their minister/priest knows it all for them and all they need to do is show up at church once a week to make them feel like that they have done their 'duty'.

If God has these reasons, then these bad things are a part of God's plan/design.

No that is not true. And if you knew what the Bible teaches, you couldn't say that. If you look at what God offered humans at the outset, unending life in paradise conditions awaited them....never to see or experience evil in any way.

It was the actions of man in committing a capital offence, introducing evil into their lives that led God to solve the problem of the abuse of free will, in the way he has. Once a knowledge of evil was in the world, there was no sending it back. Adam chose this for his children. God allowed them to see where it would naturally lead. He did not shield them from the consequences of their actions.

So, rather than the loving, merciful, and benevolent God taking care of this, he expects others to go do his work for him? He sent mana from Heaven for the wandering Jews. Why does he not send sustenance to those who need it today? And when we humans do try and send large scale aid, why does god allow dictators and tyrants to claim that aid for themselves and deny it to the people who need it?

It is all part of the greatest object lesson in human history. Every conceivable scenario promoting independence from the Creator has been tried....and failed.....miserably! Humans cannot run things down here on this planet on their own. Could the lesson be more forcefully driven home? How many corrupt elections fed by lying propaganda does it take to show humans that they suck at governing themselves? How many people gullible believe still believe the lies? How many dictators have there been who just abused their power to oppress their subjects? Power corrupts...every time.

Unlike man, God has the ability to reverse the whole thing and then restore all that was lost. But only those who comprehend the import of the message and appreciate the mechanics of it, will get to experience that restoration.

The future of mankind depends on us learning that very important lesson. We need to obey our Creator in every situation.....no disobedience will be tolerated. It brings death.

Free will carries with it the potential for all that we have seen in man's dominance of this planet. Inhumanity of a scale that often leaves us breathless. Instead of putting the blame where it lies, solely at the feet of wicked humans, we want God to fix it without getting the point of the lesson.

We want our cake and eat it too.

God could have just snuffed out the rebels and been done with it. All that would have proven is that God is more powerful, not that his way of ruling is right. Man has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that doing things their way is disastrous!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

JayJay said: "... most people are too lazy to dig for the "hidden treasure"...

I find such statements to be arrogant, as it is assuming the other person lacks any knowledge of the Bible and has not read it. It's rather ironic though, because non-theist tend to know the Bible better than Christians do.

But why does ice behave this way?

Because it does? Because of the way ions bond? Because of the chemical structure? It's really not all that mysterious.
http://geology.com/articles/snowflakes/

A Tiny Particle High in Earth's Atmosphere
A snowflake begins when a tiny dust or pollen particle comes into contact with water vapor high in Earth's atmosphere. The water vapor coats the tiny particle and freezes into a tiny crystal of ice. This tiny crystal will be the "seed" from which a snowflake will grow.
Hexagonal "Mineral" Crystals
The molecules of water that form each tiny ice crystal naturally arrange themselves into a hexagonal (six sided) structure. The result will be a snowflake with six sides or six arms. Ice crystals are "minerals" because they are naturally occurring solids with a definite chemical composition and an ordered internal structure.
The Snowflake Grows as it Falls
The newly-formed ice crystal (snowflake) is heavier than the surrounding air and it begins falling. As it falls towards Earth through humid air more water vapor freezes onto the surface of the tiny crystal. This freezing process is very systematic. The water molecules of the vapor arrange themselves so that the hexagonal crystal structure of ice is repeated. The snowflake grows larger and larger as it falls, enlarging the hexagonal pattern.
Every Snowflake is Different!
Although all snowflakes have a hexagonal shape other details of their geometry can vary. These variations are produced by different temperature and humidity conditions through which the snowflake falls. Some temperature/humidity combinations produce flakes with long needle-like arms. Other conditions produce flakes with wide flat arms. Other conditions produce thin, branching arms.
These different shapes have an unlimited number of variations, each representing the conditions of temperature and humidity and water vapor the snowflake encountered during its fall. A collection of snowflakes is shown at the top of the right column. Notice the wide variety of shapes.

We alone have an appreciation of beauty and aesthetics.

At least the Neanderthal had such an appreciation. Today I doubt we are the only other of the "higher" animals who have such an appreciation.

unlike living things that are identical, and stay true to their originals, there are no two the same.

Every generation of living beings have some differences from one another. This includes cellular reproduction.

The is creative genius taken to the nth degree.

You have not demonstrated their is any sort of creativity going on.

 

[JayJayDee]

JayJay said: "... most people are too lazy to dig for the "hidden treasure"...

Why is the 'treasure' hidden, why would your God hide anything ?
~
'mud

It isn't God who is hiding anything. He has an adversary who is really talented at making good appear to be bad and vice versa. If you believe his propaganda, then it is because you want to.

The treasure is there for the taking....all we have to do is remove the dirt piled on top. God provides the shovel.

 

[JayJayDee]

Shattering a piece of glass can produce incredibly intricate and beautiful designs and, I would image, very rarely produce the same break pattern. Is the shattering of glass evidence of design or randomness?

Shattered glass is a random pattern, not a design that is repeated. It is repeated patterning that gives evidence of a designer who purposefully intended for the repetition to be demonstrated in each instance.

 

[JayJayDee]

I find such statements to be arrogant, as it is assuming the other person lacks any knowledge of the Bible and has not read it. It's rather ironic though, because non-theist tend to know the Bible better than Christians do.

Because it does? Because of the way ions bond? Because of the chemical structure? It's really not all that mysterious.
How Do Snowflakes Form? -- Why is Every Snowflake Different?


At least the Neanderthal had such an appreciation. Today I doubt we are the only other of the "higher" animals who have such an appreciation.

Every generation of living beings have some differences from one another. This includes cellular reproduction.

You have not demonstrated their is any sort of creativity going on.

I doubt that anyone could produce a positive thought that would appeal to people such as yourself. Negativity seems to dominate many people's thinking in this world. It's obvious that there is so much that contributes to this attitude.
But denying the existence of a Creator will not make things better or give hope beyond what man can offer. Humans are clearly incapable of producing what most of us desire......good health, happiness and security, living in a world with no war or conflict.

If you say there is no designer....then you are welcome to your view and where it will lead you.

Do you expect to have a happy future relying on man to lead you to a better place? Don't hold your breath, will you?

We all know that misery loves company.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, my browser crapped out a bunch extras.

And yet, what would have happened if they had eaten from the tree of life? God clearly stated that they would have lived forever. Why did God make that tree off limits only AFTER sin had entered the world?

This tree wasn't even mentioned until then. So how can you possible know what god had planned for it when the tree was not mentioned until after sin?

Lots of people have "stuff" happening in their life. I have "stuff" to deal with too. But we have two choices. Sit around and whine...or make the best of it.

I'm not whining. It was said we make all these choices, when very obviously we all deal with things that we did not choose. And me being angry at god was brought up, which is laughable because I'm not going to be angry at a god that I do not believe in.

It's very much a "glass half empty / glass half full" kinda thing. Autism may make that choice a little more difficult for you.

I would say it's other people that make it hard because they put so much emphasis on just how important that analogy is and your answer to it when quite clearly it doesn't matter because the glass has the same volume of liquid either way, and of course there is always the contextual way to approach it, because if the glass is being filled then it's half full but if it's being drained then it's half empty. It's a problem that other people have, not me, that they don't appreciate a thorough and full explanation of something. And, again it's entirely their problem that I have "weird" thoughts, because to me they are normal thoughts.

And if you knew what the Bible teaches, you couldn't say that.

I know in the book of Job God permitted and encouraged Satan to torture Job, as a wager on Job's faith. That's actually very cruel what God allowed to happen to Job, and not just to Job but his family as well. Sure, God got bragging rights and Job was rewarded, but was that reward for faith or did God realize he really messed up by allowing all that to happen just for his own personal amusement?

If you look at what God offered humans at the outset, unending life in paradise conditions awaited them.

You don't know if this tree was a part of the plan or not. Birthing pains were mentioned as a result of sin. Does this mean birthing was supposed to have been painless (HA!!)? Or does it mean there would have been no children being born? Afterall, Cain and Abel were not born until after sin, and god, rather than giving another generation a chance and even trying to fix his design, cursed the whole lot of us.

Unlike man, God has the ability to reverse the whole thing and then restore all that was lost. But only those who comprehend the import of the message and appreciate the mechanics of it, will get to experience that restoration.

The track record of theocratic states sucks just as much as it does for secular states. The only real difference, which is in general an improvement, is secular states are very frequently more tolerant of religious and social freedom than theocratic states.

Adam chose this for his children.

If God is loving and caring, why did he make it so that this would be passed on?

Every conceivable scenario promoting independence from the Creator has been tried....and failed.....miserably!

Actually our hunter/gatherer and pastoral and nomadic tribes were doing pretty good for themselves until organized and structured societies came along. Once these spread, their complicated ways and problematic cogs spread with them. Power became more concentrated, the general public had less and less to do with it, and now we have just a few who call the shots and can do things, bad things, because we gave them the position to be able to do so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I doubt that anyone could produce a positive thought that would appeal to people such as yourself.

Being highly critical of something does not make one so pessimistic that no positive thoughts are appealing. Art is one thing that great appeals to me, and when I say I mean it in a very broad and general way that includes music, theatre, ceramics, macrame, literature, I even consider figure skating and gymnastics an art. Granted I don't like a lot of contemporary or pop-art, but the only complaints I have about Wagner are his proto-Nazi anti-Semitism.

But denying the existence of a Creator will not make things better or give hope beyond what man can offer. Humans are clearly incapable of producing what most of us desire......good health, happiness and security, living in a world with no war or conflict.

Actually, for me, denying God and evicting the Holy Ghost is one of the best things I've ever done; The improvement in my life has been significant; It freed me up to follow a road to happiness, which I have been doing; I became a much better person, I learned how to control my bursts of anger, and I became much more tolerant of others, eventually becoming very accepting of others and the things that make us different. The last 12 years without God have definitely been much better than my first 16 years spent devoted to Him, and the last few years especially, with no god at all, have been by far better than the 20-some years spent with some sort of god. Not having to feel ashamed of myself, for any reason at all, has definitely been the greatest part about leaving Christianity.

 

[outhouse]

Humans are clearly incapable of producing what most of us desire......good health, happiness and security, living in a world with no war or conflict.

Your description of Homo Sapiens clearly indicates a semi primitive people that cannot live without mythology.

And history proves this to be true.

 

[outhouse]

Do you expect to have a happy future relying on man to lead you to a better place?

The difference between us, is YOU rely and ancient men to lead you.

WE rely on modern education and knowledge without apologetic bias that blinds many.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

WE rely on modern education and knowledge without apologetic bias that blinds many.

I rely on good old fashioned ignorance and acknowledgement that I know nothing. And experience. And trying to worry only about things that actually effect me. Evolution or not, it makes no difference to me. Evolution or creationism in the class room, this is not an immediate concern of mine but it's something that can very quickly spill over into my life in some rather bad ways.