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Slight Confusion

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by Klerkie, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Klerkie

    Klerkie New Member

    Messages:
    60
    I have been thinking about the concept that everything must come from something, and the Abrahamic God. Can someone please help explain to me how if everything came from something, where did God come from?
     
  2. Pastadamus

    Pastadamus New Member

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    62
    I think that's where the whole idea of "God" breaks down. If God can't be created, then God must create itself. And if God has to create itself, who's to say that universe can't spontaneously come into existence. And since Time as we know it begins with the Big Bang, there is really no need to account for what was before the Big Bang since there is no way of defining the events before it.
     
  3. Breathe

    Breathe Mostly taking a break

    Messages:
    17,118
    Religion:
    Complicated but fairly consistent
    So if there is no way of defining events before it, why attempt to define events before the formation of the universe to a divinity?
     
  4. Shia Islam

    Shia Islam Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.

    Messages:
    1,951
    Let us assume that you are K,
    You were created by K1,
    K1 was created by K2
    .
    .
    .
    Kn was created by K(n+1)

    Lets say that GOD is K(n+1),
    if we to assume that something has created K(n+1), then this means that there is an infinite loop, which means that you does not exist.

    But since you DO exist, this means that K(n+1), I mean GOD is the final cause.
     
  5. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    26,167
    Religion:
    Buddhism, Anti-Theism
    Except that even in everyday situations such a model is a bit too simplistic. Very few situations have exactly one cause.

    And then there is the assumption that everything must have a cause of some sort.

    It is far more natural and more elegant to just accept that existence "exists" and we don't really have an explanation or cause for that.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    29,689
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The idea that "everything must come from something" is, at best, shorthand for "everything in nature must come from something," the inference being that a First Cause must necessarily be preternatural.
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Something

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    15,707
    Some people say the universe came from nothing with one a big bang. Maybe God came from a big bang and recreated God's own existence with another big bang but instead of getting a friend God got us.
     
  8. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    26,167
    Religion:
    Buddhism, Anti-Theism
    Wouldn't that mean that the Big Bang is a more transcendental creator than God, though?
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Something

    Messages:
    15,707

    I wouldn't say transcendental because that implies intelligence. I never heard of an explosion being "intelligent" but maybe they're working on it. Would it be considered by some as more worthy than Yahweh to be worshiped?
    Yes it would but it's long gone. ie it doesn't exist anymore.
     
  10. Quintessence

    Quintessence The Elementalist Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    9,399
    Religion:
    Druidic Witch
    When I took a basic philosophy of religion class in undergrad (which really should have been called "philosophy of classical monotheism" but whatever), that this god-concept has no cause itself is part of what makes it, by definition, god. A root definition of god is that god is fundamentally greater. The First Cause that, in of itself, is not caused is fundamentally greater, as it is the originator of all else, therefore the uncaused cause is god. It's a philosophical argument; Aquinas I believe? I forget. Undergrad was a while ago for me now. Some of the resources on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy may be of use to you in learning about these ideas.
     
  11. idav

    idav Being Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    11,452
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    With the idea that something always comes from something would have to work infinately into the past. That isn't logical so one can conclude that there is an exception and maybe even something from nothing at some point. People like to make god the exception. Anything that comes about on its own as a first cause is divine in that it is a source unto itself which could be the case for the universe.
     
  12. crossfire

    crossfire Egyptian Borg heretic troll ☿ Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    5,634
    Religion:
    Ordained Pastafarian, Taoish, Buddhish, & Luciferianish ☿
    What happens to nothingness when you introduce it to impermanence? (linear time) What do you get? Chaos?

    {Dang! I should know better than to ask this question. Now I'm waiting for the madness and vexation to settle in!} :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  13. The Doors of Perception

    The Doors of Perception New Member

    Messages:
    7,580
    God is suppose to be the solution to this problem, a "necessary" being, a being who exists in terms of itself. So, god exists because it is god, end of story. However, though I agree with the premises of the argument, I hardly agree with the conclusion that whatever always exists is some type of deity, nor does anything in reality hint at a deity. I would thing of it more as the Tao of Taoism, definitely something natural / material.
     
  14. Shia Islam

    Shia Islam Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.

    Messages:
    1,951
    It may seem simplistic for you, But philosophers don't talk about multiple causes here...
     
  15. Leftimies

    Leftimies On the Path of the Hidden Dharma

    Messages:
    541
    Religion:
    Shinbutsu-shugō
    I'm sure someone said this already - i didn't read all the comments, probably should've - but I think that the universe is cyclic, there is even come scientific evidence to support it; essentially the fact we know there was a Big Bang, and that the universe expanded with unthinkable speed; that we know that it might be collapsing back to its starting point. In essence, all the stuff the universe has (atoms, black matter, gas, galaxies, black holes) falls into one point with speed along the lines of light, and creates U.N.T.H.I.N.K.A.B.L.E amount of energy, exploding and expanding again. A new Big Bang again. The cycle repeats and repats and repeats over and over again.

    Now I cannot answer how everything came to be, but I'd suppose that reality is something that is dualistic: existence and nonexistence together give birth to mutual dependency to which everything is rooted. What is this collective existence born out of that dependency? Time? I don't know. But I believe everything is rooted back to that duality, ultimate Yin and Yang (the unity of negative and positive existence), that some call God, or as Confucians would say, Heaven/Tian. Our universe might be cyclic, but that ultimate duality has been always around. There was no beginning or end to it.

    The problem of Abrahamic religions is, that while the concept of God is not itself flawed, the God has been portrayed in too individual and personal a form. People have come to think Him as a person, an individual, subconsciously associating things like birth and death with him - after all, art depicts him as an old man of blood and flesh, while Jesus is young man, dying on cross. Seriously? Age and God? This is why the book says "do not depict me nor say my real name, nor call me in vain".
    Thing is, Tian (Heaven/God) for me is not a person, but the ultimate law of nature. Spiritual being, but beyond our comprehension. We live in realm of existence, and cannot know the realm of nonexistence until we die. There is no way for us to understand the ways Tian (or whatever you'd call It) exists or is. Its like trying to explain to a born blind person the experience of visual observation and sight. We can only conclude It does exist, and is the root of everything there is.

    Right?
     
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Something

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    15,707
    haha. It sounds real good to me. I don't know if it's right.
     
  17. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    22,701
    Attempts at logical arguments which attempt to prove the existence of god always end up making god an exception to logic.

    Forget the logic already. It's faith. It's fine that it's faith. Deal with it.
     
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