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Slavery

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Rex, Jun 27, 2004.

  1. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    We all know slavery has been around for 1000s of years, and untill fairly recently it has been deemed immoral.

    What are you takes on owning another person?
     
  2. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    Interesting topic here. Well, slavery still exists today in various countries, mostly 3rd world countries. They are also more common in villages. Well, if slavery is for the most part gone, then I think this is great. I mean, today we pay people for work, we do not find them and take them. The world we live in is so different. There were certain belief systems that regulated slavery and encouraged the freeing and good treatment of slaves. It's hard to say what I feel about it. Certainly I never would agree with treating a slave like they did in this country to the blacks. But like i said, its still going on in other parts of the world. I think its better to actually pay someone for work. Again, we live in a completely different world these days and as a result, slavery has diminshed. sorry if my thoughts are incoherent, im just typing whatever pops in my head. thank you.

    However, I do not agree with sweat shop labor which is rampant today which I would almost equate to slavery. It is a disgusting thing and america lives off of it like the pharoahs lived off the slave labor of the hebrews. anyways, ta ta take care.
     
  3. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    I am against slavery, however, don't some bosses think they own you? It seems that in today's corporate world, the CEO's are demanding more time from their employees. If employees have very little free time, isn't that a form of slavery? If we are dictated to on how to dress and behave, doesn't the company own you?
     
  4. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Isn't it a form of self-imposed "slavery" to a particular job. There is always the option of quitting if you can stand the economic pressure. Perhaps it's a bondage to the money and what the money buys.

    The recognition that some were designated a sub-class was much earlier but it did not approach the level of immoral. Morality is a product of society and societies change
     
  5. Mr Spinkles

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    I do not see the connection at all. Employees generally do not want to be fired, and hope to be promoted or get a raise...slaves generally want to escape, and have no hope of a better future.
     
  6. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    Good point mr. sprinkles.
     
  7. mersault

    mersault Member

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    Unfortunately, slavery today is more rampant than it has ever been. There are around 27 million slaves in the world today. Although it is usually under a different name, such as debt slavery or bonded labor, it amounts to the same thing. It is amazing that slavery could be so prevalent in these seemingly progressive times, but it is mostly hidden from public view. In fact, one of the things that distinguishes modern day slavery from, say, pre-Civil War slavery is its low profile in the public eye and the lengths slave owners take to avoid detection. Modern day slaves work primarily in agriculture, mining, and prostitution. Since so much of modern day slavery does have to do with the sex industry, perhaps our puritanical oulook in America is keeping us from wanting to deal with the problem?
    For a great article on modern slavery, check out "21st Century Slavery" in National Geographic September 2003. Also see freetheslaves.net
    and antislavery.org for more information.
     
  8. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    Would anyone, even those who stand to profit from it, defend (with a straight face) the forcing of a person into slavery? It opposes the very basest of human rights. How can a person function as a product of nature when completely performing the will of another. Slaves are denied the right to self preservation and the ability to ensure the survival of their genes in any natural system. Since I have seen slavery practised by no other organism in nature I assume it to be unnautural and as Rousseau said "no right can authorize it".

    Except God aparently as the Koran claims.
     
  9. mersault

    mersault Member

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    I do not in any way mean to condone slavery among humans, but there is at least one other organism that practices slavery. There are approximately 20 species of ants that raid the nests of other ants, steal their pupae and larvae, and raise those ants as slaves working for the aggressive colony. Nature can be just as ruthless as humans.
     
  10. Mr Spinkles

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    There are a lot of other organisms that practice slavery...I think there are a bunch of parasitic tree mosses that 'enslave' the trees but I will have to check up on that one.

    There are parasites (I can't remember what they are called) that infect ants, and have the ability to control them...they allow the ant to do what it needs to do to survive, until it senses the chemical signature of a cow nearby--the parasite then uses its control over the ant to make it climb to the top of the nearest plant (a specific type of plant which cows eat) so that the cow will eat the ants, and the parasite can then infect the cow.

    I also remember learning about a parasite that infects snails, causing them to become "zombie snails" and effectively slaves to the parasites...I need to do some research on all this.
     
  11. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for enlightening me on the ants issue, I'd never heard of it. But I would like to know if 'worker' would not better describe the activities undertaken by these hijacked ants. As far as I'm aware arresting the progress of the larvae at certain points in their development pre-dtermines the future postion of the ant in the colony (warrior, worker, queen). Are the kidnapped larvae not subject to the same selective procedures?

    Host-parasite interactions also do seem like slavery now that I think of it. Except there is no legal claim to ownership to the slave or the slaves offspring by the parasite.
     
  12. mersault

    mersault Member

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    You are right that the ants that are taken become workers, but I do not know if the slave-maker ants arrest their development in the way you describe. And I almost agree that "slave" is a misnomer since the ants do not realize they are slaves and couldn't care less about it. Not too bright, the individual ant. However, the concept is the same, whether or not the individual ants know it.

    I thought the host-parasite thing was a different idea completely. A parasite cannot live without a host, whereas the ant colonies could survive without "slaves." Actually it turns out that some ant species, specifically those known as Amazon ants, cannot survive without making "slaves" because their jaws are unfit for just about anything except killing other ants. So perhaps we should make a distinction between "voluntary" slave-makers and organisms biologically predestined to become slave-makers.

    Unfortunately, enjoyable though it may be, this discussion is off topic. Owning another person is immoral because humans are born with the ability of self-determination. To take this ability away from another person is immoral. And do not counter with an argument about putting people in jail. Those people have done something destructive to another person, assuming our criminal justice system is working properly, and thus they deserve to be in jail, or do hard manual labor, or whatever the case may be.

    P.s.
    Whether or not humans actually have self-determination or free will is in another thread.
     
  13. UNITED

    UNITED Member

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    I believe that slavery is wrong. There is no reason for it. I just wished that the US government would convince the UN to focus some money on eradicating slavery in some third world countries. I read a book recently on Africans living in Sudan being captured by the Muslims in the northern regions and being made into slaves for them. That's awful. It could have been prevented. It still can.
     
  14. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    From the "Arizona Republic" (http://www.unknownnews.net/031013slavery.html):

    by Chris Fiscus, The Arizona Republic [Phoenix]
    Oct. 11, 2003

    They might work in massage parlors or restaurants, factories or fields. They could be nannies or maids. They might be from south of the border or the Far East, Eastern Europe or Africa.

    They are victims of human trafficking, a modern form of slavery still practiced across the country and in Arizona.

    But local police, faith-based groups, non- profits, social service agencies and everyday citizens have joined efforts to help. They created a small group fueled by passion for change and a three-year federal grant worth about $1 million.

    "It's going to have a huge impact. Most people aren't aware slavery still exists in this country," said Melynda Barnhart, a local attorney and a program specialist for the new group, called "ALERT."

    If successful, she said, the public will realize the trafficking problem exists and the group will create a situation "where more victims can be freed."

    ALERT, or the Arizona League to End Regional Trafficking, has established a hotline for victims to call. Victims also can turn to the group for emergency shelter and food, medical and mental health services, translators and legal aid, and other services.

    The FBI and other agencies already have referred victims to the group, Barnhart said, adding, "We know there's a problem here."

    Some trafficking victims are brought across the border against their will. Others agree to go under false pretenses, then are taken away to other states and often placed in forced labor or in servitude for a debt they could never work off.

    The U.S. government estimates that about 20,000 people are trafficked into the United States for forced labor each year.

    Because of Arizona's proximity to the Mexican border, and because crackdowns along the border in Texas and California push others to cross into Arizona, the state is a key part of the human pipeline.

    Once in Arizona, trafficking victims often are taken east to states such as Florida and New York. There already have been documented cases in both states where victims said they met their traffickers in Arizona.

    "We just happen to be a hub. We happen to be part of the train," said Will Gonzalez, an assistant city prosecutor for Phoenix and one of those working with the group. "They do swing through here on the circuit."

    It's not smuggling, where people pay a price to willingly cross the border and then are on their own once they arrive; it's forced labor through trafficking.

    Victims being helped by the group declined to be interviewed.

    But a recent case with Arizona ties illustrates the state's role in the pipeline.

    The Justice Department last year indicted six people in Buffalo, N.Y., on charges of forced labor, conspiracy and trafficking in human beings. The case involves more than three dozen Mexican men and boys who were recruited in Arizona to work on farms near Buffalo.

    According to published reports, the men and boys were placed in a van with no seats and windows that could not be opened when transported. Once there, workers could not leave until they paid $1,000 each for the trip, plus rent and food. The workers say they were virtual prisoners, and some said they were paid as little as $30 a week for 60 hours of work.

    ALERT's goal is to provide a way out. Part of the effort is to find local victims through the hotline and by spreading the word in Arizona communities. Also, when a trafficking ring is broken in other states, some victims may be brought here either because of relatives in Arizona or to get a fresh start.

    The victims may be able to get a special kind of visa and remain in the United States legally. They also may be eligible for benefits and services similar to what is received by refugees, Barnhart said.

    The challenge of reaching victims, though, is sizable.

    They are quickly shuffled from city to city, coast to coast. They also often fear authorities because traffickers threaten to harm the victims' relatives if they go to the police. It's also a challenge for police to distinguish between trafficking and smuggling.

    "Are they being brought here or being held hostage?" Gonzalez said.

    Locally, ALERT isn't the only hope for making a dent in the problem. Multiple law enforcement agencies are meeting to share information about human trafficking.

    Some lawmakers plan in January to propose a bill that would research the scope of Arizona's problem
     
  15. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    here's something to ponder: slaves are assets and thus have food, clothing, shelter and health care and some even have some luxuries. when the blacks were freed they were lucky to find a job. by giving them a wage if they could even collect(sharecroppers), they could get more out of them by not giving them enough money for their basic needs, which meant they were financially worse off. isn't that equitable to minimum wage in this country? single and married people living off minimum wage are essentially paid less than former slaves. put that in your pipe and smoke it.
     
  16. Mr Spinkles

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    Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe people living off minimum wage in this country are paid way more than former slaves, and have a much better life. Did the slaves have apartments and cable TV?
     
  17. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    How, when given the opportunity to make money, can you be financially worse off after having come from a situation which entailed NO money whatsoever? As far as financial problems go, whats worse than absolutely no money?
     
  18. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    look, all i saying is that everyone should have their needs met not just the basics. minimum wage is not enough for one person let alone two or three. i never married until i was 38, because i never made enough money to get married. at least slaves could marry. and another thing, i am divorced and disabled and sometimes would starve if someone didn't lend me the money to get food. ssd is much less than minimum wage. try living on 654 dollars a month and pay repair bills on an old clunker. and another thing, some people receive 1500 dollars a month in social security, does that mean they don't have the same type of bills i would like to have? i know the world is unfair, but the government and some employers don't need to add to it. if it wasn't for friends i would be dead.
     
  19. Mr Spinkles

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    Well, even so, I daresay I'd rather not be a slave, wouldn't you?

    It sounds like you're having a hard time getting by...I hope things get better for you. :( The only thing I don't understand is, if you're on the brink of starvation where do you get access to a computer with internet access? Do you go to the library?
     
  20. trishtrish10

    trishtrish10 Active Member

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    i use a friends computer. i still looking for part-time work to get some financial relief.
     
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