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Featured Slavery in the bible

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Dan Mellis, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    So what?
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    What dates are associated with the papyrus?
     
  3. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    I don't see what the problem is here. Nobody claims either the Jews or the early Christians, 2000 years, ago led perfect moral lives, nor does anyone claim that the social structures of the time were the moral equal of what we have in many modern societies. Slavery is just one example. You could equally well pick on the role of women.

    People cannot help being of their time: what they see as moral and immoral will be shaped by that. The bible was written by people, after all, at a certain time in history.

    So what's the issue?
     
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  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Once a year they say that they were personally slaves in Egypt. Each parent tells it to their kids "We were slaves in Egypt, but we were brought out." and to everyone around in the household, and if there are slaves those slaves are all present. They don't say "Our ancestors were slaves." They say "We were slaves." They call this the Pesach festival. It is not optional and is part of their ethnic history going back three or more thousand years. This undermines slavery, because the first thing you do if you want to generationaly enslave someone is you make them think you are different from them and better that they are morally inferior or genetically inferior. You can't do that if you are teaching them that that you were a slave and that genetics don't matter.
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I suppose.

    John 8:33 33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    That adds in nicely, although it is not Hebrew and is written in AD. How can they be set free if they aren't slaves? How can they be slaves if they are actually free? How can it be the body of Christ if its bread, and how can it be his blood if its wine? In John 8:35 he highlights a previous point: "Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever." If John knows what he is talking about he reveals that when the man has his ear pierced to the doorpost he becomes a son and is no longer a slave, and the one who leaves has been freed. One walks away and one is naturalized.
     
  7. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    And you conveniently omit that those who utilized The Bible to advocate FOR slavery during that same time-frame were also Christian. And, honestly, they had plenty of ammunition to take into the argument. The Bible blatantly supports/condones slavery.

    And this is where there is an egregious problem. Secularly minded individuals who wanted to argue for keeping slavery had to come up with secular justifications as to why it is acceptable to own another human being - of which there are basically none outside of appealing to greed and apathy. But religious people who want to argue that we should keep slavery have The Bible that they can point to, and basically use it to insist that God is on their side in the argument. That's one of the biggest dangers of religion in general. Cosmic-level justification of atrocity.
     
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  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    I am confused. Didn't you discourage using the book of John as authoritative? Now you're using it as evidence to support your claim?
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    You are confused.. The contradictions exist on their own.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    It says NEVER been slaves.

    In the old days slaves in Arabia had their ears pierced.. Not the lobe.. the ear.
     
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Yup... :oops::rolleyes::)
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Basically, everyone in the know admits that what is written in the Bible and Torah simply didn’t happen, not at all, not even the non-supernatural, core plot…

    So next time you hear someone tell you the Bible is infallible (or anything about Passover whatsoever) send them one of these links:

    The Jews Were Never Slaves in Egypt – Religious Criticism
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I think they had an agenda.. I've thought so for a long time. There are massive doubts that there ever was a united kingdom.

    Grounds for disbelief

    "I don't believe that there was a department for the invention of stories in Jerusalem.

    There were folktales that were handed down from generation to generation, local traditions and legends, and they were the basis for the creation of the biblical narrative. Maybe there really was no conquest, and maybe there were vague memories of local events.

    In any case, the scribes in the period of Josiah collected these materials and forged them into a coherent story containing a message it was important for them to get across. They didn't actually care whether there ever was such a person as Joshua.

    Jericho and the area of Bethel, and the Shefelah and the Galilee were on the agenda of Judah.

    They never actually conquered many of these regions. `This was once ours,' they said, `as in the time of Joshua, and all we are doing is putting history back in its track, correcting the course of history and on this occasion renewing the glorious monarchy of David, which was the first to rule these territories.'"
     
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  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    I am not arguing for an infallible Bible just responding to the OP. They're speaking strictly about what they read in Hebrew laws, and I'm meeting them in that world. Nobody is really trying to shore up historicity, but we are discussing whether slavery is encouraged or discouraged. Obviously Christians, Muslims and Jews are implicated by recent centuries in which slavery has been a big business. The OP blames this on the Bible and on the concept of God, and I see some misconceptions in the OP argument.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Are you saying that the story of the conquest of the land is a complete fiction?

    "It is a story which, as it is presented in the Bible, definitely never happened. Archaeology shows that it has no historical grounds.

    Many of the sites that are cited in the story of the conquest were not even inhabited in the relevant period, so there was nothing to conquer, there were only hills and rocks.

    Jericho was not fortified and had no walls, and it's doubtful that there was a settlement there at the time.

    Therefore, in the case of the story of the conquest of Arad, for instance, some scholars said that the war was fought against the forces of one Bedouin sheikh.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Nah.. Slavery existed long before there were ever any Hebrew scriptures.


    Then why was it written?

    "For reasons of ideology. Because the authors of the Bible, people from Judah at the end of the seventh century BCE, in the period of King Josiah, had a long score to settle with the northern kingdom, with its splendor and richness.

    They despised the northerners and had not forgotten their dominance in forging the Israelite experience, in the competition for the sites of ritual.

    Contrary to what is usually thought, the Israelites did not go to pray in Jerusalem. They had a temple in Samaria (today's Sebastia) and at Beit El (Bethel).

    In our book we tried to show that as long as Israel was there, Judah was small and frightened, militarily and internationally. Judah and Jerusalem were on the fringes.

    A small tribe. There was nothing there. A small temple and that's all."

    And the kingdom of Israel?

    "The archaeological findings show that Israel was a large, prosperous state, and was the main story until its destruction in the eighth century.

    Its geographic location was excellent, on the coast, near Phoenicia, Assyria and Syria. It had a diverse demographic composition: foreign residents and workers, Canaanites, Phoenicians; there was an Aramean population in the Jordan Valley, and there were mixed marriages.

    It was only 150 years after Israel's destruction that Judah rose to greatness, becoming self-aware and developing the monotheistic approach: one state, one God, one capital, one temple, one king."

    Grounds for disbelief
     
  17. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Then God should have condemned it, as "He" did many, many other things.
     
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  18. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    It was also Christians who justified it and kept it going.
     
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  19. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Is that what the OP is arguing? I thought it was just that there was slavery practised by Jews and Christians in history.

    Like Sooda, I cannot see how anyone could get the idea that slavery is an idea originating in the bible, and I don't see that in the way the OP is written.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    You think God wrote the Bible?
     
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