1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Slavery in the bible

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Dan Mellis, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    55,732
    Ratings:
    +36,748
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Wow! You have not read the Bible at all. Nor do you appear to know how to use the concept of "evidence". Right not the Bible is convicted by its own verses. Rude response all but guarantee rude replies.

    You do not know how to facepalm properly either. People who don't own up to their own errors never can use that in the appropriate way. Why not work on some of your basic misunderstandings before you criticize others.
     
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    You have still provided No evidence. Just ad hominem. I know a lot about this subject of Slavery in the Bible. I've been researching it since the last time Skwim brought it up.
     
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Please enlighten me?

    What are my errors?
     
  4. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    482
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I honestly dont see why it matters when it was written. It's still a major flaw in the book - people can and do use these sort of things to justify violence and hate. Also, how do we go about seperating what is a human problem and what is a command from god? Is homophobia a human problem? What about the 10 commandments... maybe god wouldnt mind if I worshipped a bull?

    Finally, slave means exactly what I read into it. You can buy and sell another human as property, and they are part of the inheritance you can leave your kids. Who cares if there were different rules for hebrews etc - the definition is clear.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    482
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I dont think it matters if theres evidence that people followed these directives, or how the slaves were treated. Even if we took for granted that not a single slave was harmed (we don't have any evidence for that either, the only thing that speaks on the subject is what's in the bible), owning another human as property is still wholly immoral - it goes against the basic human right to freedom.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    482
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Its never held up as morally virtuous in itself - but it does have fairly clear rules on how to treat your slaves. To me, a truly virtuous book would only have something similar to this to say about slavery:

    Owning slaves is evil. Slaves, don't obey your masters. Use every tool you can to escape and never look back.

    The relevant places in the bible are...

    Exodus 21:1-26
    Ephesians 6:5
    Collosians 3:22
    Peter 2:18-20
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    482
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Atheist
    All of this is very nice, but you can still own slaves for hard labour. Its literally the first line. It doesn't matter how you treat your slaves. Owning them is awful.
     
  8. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    482
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Sources?
     
  9. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    482
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Atheist
    This isn't about the american slave trade. Its about slavery in the bible.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    9,577
    Ratings:
    +2,719
    Religion:
    Theistic Rationalist-Christian
    Then what's the issue? Slavery in the Bible happened in ancient times. Slavery was socially and morally acceptable then. Heck people sold themselves into slavery to survive even.
     
  11. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    2,380
    Ratings:
    +580
    Religion:
    Protestant
    Typical,
    As soon as one proves one claim against the Bible as incorrect, some whize guy comes up with a truckload of other accusations.
    My dear friend, we are talking about slavery in the Bible.
    or, the perception from atheists and Muslims that the God of the Bible and Jesus condoned Slavery as an institution which was equal to the slave trade 300 years ago.
    What I found is that such an accusation is a fabrication!

    If You want to talk about something else, such as David and Saul, open another thread.
    This one is for Slavery in the Bible.
     
  12. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    16,013
    Ratings:
    +16,562
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    I think we can dispense with Exodus, as it is Old Testament, very primitive, like much of it and obviously superseded, for the Christian reader, by the teachings and examples in the New Testament. After all, thinking Christians don't take Genesis literally, nor - elsewhere in Exodus - the parting of the Red Sea, or indeed the Egyptian captivity itself, which I gather is thought ahistorical.

    I've looked at the 3 epistles you quote and it strikes me as remarkable how consistent they all are. In context, all three passages, by two different writers, are at pains to stress that Christianity is not about overturning the social order but about how to live your life, spiritually, as an individual Christian. I do not know, but I start to suspect that there was perhaps a danger that the early Christians might become, or be seen to become, a revolutionary political movement. These writers seem (rightly, to my mind) anxious to stop that happening.

    Willingness to accept one's lot in life, and make the best of it spiritually, which is what is recommended in these passages, is a feature of many world religions, not just Christianity.

    It is not an endorsement of slavery.
     
    #272 exchemist, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  13. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    2,380
    Ratings:
    +580
    Religion:
    Protestant
    True in all regards.
    Genesis is an ancient book, and very primitive indeed.
    But I wont dispense of it so quickly.
    The whole Gospel weighs on the creation of God being perfect, death through sin by Adam, jesus being the second Adam (prior to loosing immortality.
    Even if one consider this unnessesary, the Creation epoch, Flood, and various scientific discoveries which was described by "Western scientists", and archaeological descriptions in Genesis, is enough for me to realise that Genesis is somehow superior to any other ancient writings humankind ever had.
    I used to dislike the Old Testament, untill I found that without any of it, the Gospel will be a theory with no support.
    Jesus himself said, you are making errors because you dont know the scriptures, nor the power of God.
    Once I started to read the Old Testament, and scrutinised all the attacks against it, such as does science and the Bible creation contradict itself, I discovered that science received the Nebular Theory from Genesis etc.
    Anyhow, I can paste the Old Testament to the New Testament with ease.
    They support each other, they dont contradict at all.
    Not like the Book of Mormon or the Quran.
    Greetings
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    And that's the difference between you and I. For me, morality is based on whether or not harm was done. The label, the title, and the legal definition ("people are property") are much less important than what people actually did.

    Example:

    When a sovereign ruler amassed large quantities of foreign slaves for a large building project. Is it moral or immoral? I propose, it's impossible to tell without more facts. A person would need to know:
    • how the slaves became slaves in the first place
    • how the monarch acquired the slaves
    • what were the living conditions before the monarch acquired them
    • what were the living conditions after the monarch acquired them
    If the monarch used their army and literally stole people out of the homeland; where they were happy law abiding citizens; forced them to work long hours in harsh conditions; fed them poorly; treated them like property; then, that's immoral.

    If the monarch purchased slaves who were already being treated horribly and improved their situation significantly; then, maybe it's not immoral.

    Assuming that the first monarch is more likely based on the stories in the Bible and world history makes sense. But completely denying the possibility of the second monarch is a Presumption of Guilt.

    Maybe looking at a less emotionally charged example will help?

    Marriage. Marriage is defined in a very cold impersonal manner legally. But that's not what defines a marriage between two people. It's just cold and impersonal because that's how the law handles all issues.

    If a couple gets married purely for the financial benefits and they don't really love each other or are committed to each other as a "till death do you part" couple; Are they actually married? In name only. Not in deed.

    If a person is legally defined as a slave, but isn't treated like a slave are they still a slave?

    You say, it doesn't matter how they are treated? Just listen to that?

    It doesn't matter how they are treated???

    ...

    Of course it matters how they are treated. If they are treated poorly, that is certainly worse that treating them well.

    Just think about it. Doesn't it matter how they are treated? Does the legal definition matter more? or less? Does the label matter more or less?

    -------------------------------------------------

    I want to try to make one more point.

    --------------------------------------------------

    When speaking about genocide, gender issues, death penalty, rights for gay people, you and I both agree that applying a literal interpretation of the bible is literally immoral.

    If, as I have shown for slavery, the actual law does not follow the literal interpretation either and encouraged kind and merciful treatment why is that irrelevant?

    It has been shown that the bible critics who have replied to this thread do not know the law. The bible critics who replied to this thread assumed that the law followed the literal English translation. And they assumed that abusing a slave was allowed by law.

    Can you honestly say that you, yourself did not assume that non-Jewish slaves could be legally beaten and humiliated based on the verses in the Old Testament, as long as they survived a few days after the beating?

    Isn't it true that if I had ignored the legal details of Biblical Slavery, you would have maintained that assumption?

    And doesn't it demonstrate a lack of intellectual integrity to claim that the legal definition is wholly irrelevant while earlier in the thread assuming that this sort of beating is legal, acceptable, and encouraged?

    It all goes back to the fallacy of depending too much on a literal understanding of an English translation of the Old Testament. As I said, we both agree that a literal understanding would render immoral behavior.

    If a Bible Critic literally refuses to accept that there is a deeper more complete, application of these verses in the face of evidence that supports it; then they are guilty of the same fallacy as anyone else who insists on reading the English translation of the Old Testament and applying it literally.

    Why would a Bible critic insist on maintaining their attachment to the literal translation? To prove a point. That's all. Since there is no Biblical Slavery today, all that's left is the principle.
     
    #274 dybmh, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    If you're still with me, I am prepared to discuss the matters of "hard labor" and "ownership". But I'm not ready to debate them. I have an understanding of the concepts; but I am still looking for sources to back them up. I am not a Rabbi. Just an amateur enthusiast. Because of that, it's going to take time to verify the information I have been given regarding what is hard labor and why it's important to leave that as a legally acceptable option for foreign / non-Jewish slaves.

    I can share with you what I have been told. It's not a secret. But if you want to discuss it now, lacking sources to back it up; it will need to be via PM.

    Thank you,
     
    #275 dybmh, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  16. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    7,178
    Ratings:
    +5,044
    Religion:
    ?
    I was merely presenting my opinion that The Bible is full of garbage, and provided some supporting points. I didn't feel I could simply state that The Bible is chock full of trash without providing at least a few points that I felt display this besides the slavery bit (which is a really, really good one), which was already being discussed. For example, that even relatively "mundane" things like the David/Saul bit were just terrible representations of ignorance and inanity - all the way up to even the heralded/celebrated major tenets have some glaring flaws like the 10 commandments.

    You don't like my tactics in the discussion, take it up with my supervisor - who is also me -"Hi, how are you? I heard you have some complaints with my employee. He was just following orders... I told him to tick you off."
     
  17. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    15,440
    Ratings:
    +8,933
    It's a lot easier for evil people to carry out evil actions when they are written down as clearly as they are in the Bible and supposedly commanded from the creator of the universe.

    It was perpetuated using the same Bible that does not anywhere condemn the practice of owning human beings as property and instead provides instruction on exactly how to obtain and keep slaves.

    Pure conjecture and speculation was what your post on the matter was.

    Repeating your claims doesn't make them true.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    15,440
    Ratings:
    +8,933
    Where does the Bible say slavery is wrong?

    It doesn't. Not anywhere.

    If God wanted us all to know slavery was wrong, then perhaps he shouldn't have gone to such lengths to explain to us exactly how to do it.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  19. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    15,440
    Ratings:
    +8,933
    The issue is about the immorality of it in a book that supposedly contains moral pronouncements from a God about how humans are supposed to behave.
     
    #279 SkepticThinker, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    482
    Ratings:
    +284
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Socially acceptable maybe. I thought god provided objective morality though...
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...