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Featured Slavery in the bible

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Dan Mellis, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    What you're speaking about is perfectly natural to assume based on the behavior of so many "believers".
     
  2. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    5% reflects reality. You just want to abuse stats for the highest number possible to make your case appear stronger. Unless you can provide a legit number showing that 1 in 4 households were rich enough to afford slaves then you sont have much of a claim.

    Reality tends to be that way. Rarely does it fit the fictional narrative being spun.

    You can't quote a different number because 5% is the legit number. I dare say it's actually lower that that, but 5% is what data I cite with any credibility. Lie I say only 1% of the richest people could afford slaves at the time.

    In 1850 on avg, slaves sold for the equivalent to $40,000 per in today's money. That's the kind of money most people don't have. And that just 1 slave mind you, most slave owners owned multiple slaves. Which means multiple $100,000's spent on slaves. This is not the kind of money most people even today have, let alone 200+ years ago. So you're 25%+ number you so desperately want to believe in is just not supported by facts.


    Nah it was Christian.

    Second Great Awakening - Wikipedia

    Greed, power, control of land/resources is usually the root of all evil.
     
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Agreed... I often think of the word: "Humane". So many believers seem to act like little gods. Judging, preaching, imposing their will on others... it's not very humane... it's like they've forgotten that they are Human... not God.
     
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  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Again, did you even read what I wrote?

    WE'VE NOT BEEN DISCUSSING THE PERCENTAGE OR NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO OWN SLAVES!

    What we began talking about was the percentage of people within the South who would have been proponents/supporters of slavery. The number of people who would have gone to bat, or argued FOR slavery.

    Damn, man... read for comprehension. I triple-dog-dare you.
     
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  5. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    In 1537, Pope Paul III (r. 1534-1549) issued a bull, Sublimus Dei, which taught that natives peoples were not to be enslaved. In 1591, Gregory XIV (r. 1590-1591) promulgated Cum Sicuti, which was addressed to the bishop of Manila in the Philippines and reiterated his predecessors’ prohibitions against enslaving native peoples. In the seventeenth century, Urban VIII (r. 1623-1644) promulgated Commissum Nobis(1639) in support of the Spanish king’s (Philip IV) edict prohibiting enslavement of the Indians in the New World.

    The need for cheap and abundant labor in the colonies is what led to the African slave trade. This new form of bondage was also condemned by the popes, beginning with Innocent XI (r. 1676-1689). In 1741, Benedict XIV (r. 1740-1758) issued Immensa Pastorum, which reiterated that the penalty for enslaving Indians was excommunication. In 1839, Gregory XVI (r. 1831-1846) issued In Supremo to condemn the enslavement of Africans. Pope Leo XIII (r. 1878-1903) promulgated two bulls condemning slavery in 1888 and 1890.

    Did the Church Ever Support Slavery?
     
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  6. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    In the meantime, during the 16th and 17th centuries, where do we see secular humanists in prohibition of slavery? Were they silent?
     
  7. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    So, to sum up, I am going to assume your post to mean that the Catholics always had it right, whether this be because God communicated it to these popes, or the popes were just more progressive than God and didn't give a hoot what He had to say on the matter. Interesting to know.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The Hebrews were opposed to enslaving other Hebrews, but they were keen to enslave the Canaanites when they could. Look at the Gibeonites.

    Joshua 17:12–13 notes, “The Manassites were not able to occupy these towns, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that region. However, when the Israelites grew stronger, they subjected the Canaanites to forced labor but did not drive them out completely.” Why didn’t the Israelites completely destroy the Canaanites as God had commanded?

    Judges 1:27–33 also describes the failure of the Israelites to complete the conquest of the land through removing the Canaanites. Verses 27–28 states, “Manasseh did not drive out the people of Beth Shan or Taanach or Dor or Ibleam or Megiddo and their surrounding settlements, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that land. When Israel became strong, they pressed the Canaanites into forced labor but never drove them out completely.”

    It took a while for slavery to be abolished.

    Passed by Congress on January 31, 1865, and ratified on December 6, 1865, the 13th amendment abolished slavery in the United States and provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.".
    13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Abolition of ...
    www.archives.gov/historical-docs/13th-amendment
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Not moral period?

    If a court of law determines that a person stole property, cannot reimburse the owner, what should happen? They go to jail? Lose their freedom? Get fed? How long do they stay in jail, what are the conditions?

    Some criminals are radicalized in jail and on release are not rehabilitated; they're worse.

    What if there are no jails, or no room, and this is a repeat offender who is sentenced to slavery? If there are no jails or no room for them, what should happen? Clearly the offender shouldn't get a free-pass.

    What are the options?

    Death-penalty?
    Amputation?
    Slavery?

    I would have to review the laws of slavery again, but I think a slave owner can free their slave. I don't think there is a minimum sentence. We've already established that cruelty is discouraged for all slaves, for all people. I could go on and on.

    Look, I'm not trying to justify the wrongs of the past. But, there is merit to the statement "it's not a slave; it's a servant" when it comes to a slave defined by Jewish Law based on the verses in the Old Testament.
     
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  10. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    First of all that number is impossible to quantify. How would you propose that we gather that information? Other than pure conjecture and speculation there is no reliable way. Just sticking to the facts available to us if that's ok.

    But not all people in the south supported slavery. Who do you think helped the slaves get from the south to the north? Also many towns and/or counties flew the American flag during the Confederacy in opposition to the Confederates.

    Southern Unionist - Wikipedia
     
  11. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    But the argument was that there was a significant number of people advocating for slavery and using The Bible as their supporting source. I don't need to necessarily quantify it to some exacting degree. The percentage of people belonging to slavery owning households was significant. The number of people who feared what life would be like once they were surrounded by a host of freed slaves was significant. The number of people who feared for the financial stability of the South was significant. Among the combination of all those, to say that the number of people who supported slavery (for one or more of those reasons) was insignificant is just denial. And since the percentage of those in the country who were atheist during this time was quite low (even today, we're only looking at 3.1%), and that the greatest percentage of the population of the country were some form of Christian (most likely a higher proportion of the South), then it stands to reason that a good portion of those people who supported slavery were Christians. That's all I was saying.

    Finally, if you don't want to accept my lack of concrete numbers to go with any of that conjecture (which I can understand), it doesn't even matter. If there were ANY supporters of slavery to be found at all (which documentation assures us that there were), then, given the distributions of belief-system/worldview of the country at that time, it is guaranteed that a high percentage of them hailed as some form of Christian. And it is also documented that people used The Bible in argumentation for keeping the institution of slavery - which I highly doubt was a tactic being used by non-Christians. So however many Christians helped abolish slavery (which you haven't provided concrete numbers for either, let's remember), there were also some that tried to keep it around.
     
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  12. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    What a pile of manure. Slavery was cruel.
     
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  13. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    You do need to provide some concrete numbers of your claim of "significant numbers" is to be supported though.

    Not for your argument.

    In fact it goes against your argument.

    You do realize that some of the people belonging to households that were slave owners were abolitionist themselves. They would undermine the, usually Father/Master, and free slaves whenever they could.

    So to lump them in with people who supported slavery just because they came from a family that owned slaves does them a disservice.

    Its significant in today world as well. Who has never worried about their financial stability/security? The extremely high tariffs the north placed on the south was unfair to say the least.

    I never denied that some people supported slavery. Just that the number in reality, is much lower than is thought of usually.

    Fact is it's just human nature, especially in those days and before. Because slavery was socially/morally acceptable up til about 300 years ago or so. Don't make it right or ok, but it is fact nonetheless.

    Well when 97%+ of the population is Christian its be easy to scapegoat Christianity as the problem. Doesn't mean it's true though, especially with the abolitionist movement to show otherwise.

    Meh, unscrupulous people will use whatever they can to try to justify their actions. Even using the Bible if they don't believe in it. That's evidenced here on RF with atheist acusing Christians of cherry picking for not doing >insert atrocity here< like a OT passage says etc.

    Considering all of the North opposed slavery, a majority Christian by your own words. Then you have the South who supported slavery, but had those within it that opposed slavery also, a majority Christian by your own words. It would be safe to deduce that the majority of Christian's opposed slavery.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    was. that's what is important. past tense.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I don't think that you understand what an assumption is. I saw no indication of that in there. A conclusion drawn upon evidence and reason is not an assumption.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You are using the standard that was applied to Hebrew slaves and not foreign slaves. The Hebrews in the OT could own slaves much in the same way that they were owned in the Old South. It was not a case of debt or a wrong done for many of them. Now you appear to be making assumptions.
     
  17. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    maybe you're right. it doesn't seem that important anymore. but, i'll try to keep it mind.
     
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  18. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I can't seem to get at numbers, but sources just say "many Christians" when they talk about people advocating for slavery. There are also quotes from religious leaders of the time to back up the idea that there were definitely Christians advocating for keeping slavery around, and they apparently knew all about what The Bible actually says regarding slavery, and what it stays ominously silent about:

    -Rev. Alexander Campbell

    -
    Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

    A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

    Sourced from the book "George Whitefield: The Life and Times of the Great Evangelist of the Eighteenth Century (1980), Volume 2"

    The only point being, you can't just say that Christianity alone was responsible for ending slavery, when Christianity was attempting to be one thing that kept slavery in place also. Again, I would say it had to be specific individuals, whose minds were on the human component, and who were willing to ignore what God had to say (specifically about slavery) who won the day.
     
    #238 A Vestigial Mote, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    you said "slavery is immoral. period." if you want to move the goal post, that's fine.

    i am not assuming.. at least not this time.
     
    #239 dybmh, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  20. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I'm sure as far as raw numbers go those supporting slavery was in the thousands.

    Well to be fair. The Christian Abolitonist movement was the ones who actively did anything. If not for them, who knows how long slavery would have continued. The number who opposed outnumbered those that supported, and that is the important part.

    You've got it backwards though.

    You're stating that the minority that used the Bible to justify slavery is the default position.

    I simply don't agree.

    The majority that used the Bible to end slavery is the default position. Specifically the teachings of Jesus in the NT.
     
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