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Site about lazarus and the rich man story being just a parable...

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LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
danieldemol said:
I think it's a parable told by someone who believes in the spirits of people seperating from their material bodies at death FWIW
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I think it's a parable NOT told by someone who believes in the spirits of of people separating from their material bodies at death, but rather DIRECTED to those who believe such.....as a refutation to such belief..
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LightofTruth said:
I think it's a parable NOT told by someone who believes in the spirits of of people separating from their material bodies at death, but rather DIRECTED to those who believe such.....as a refutation to such belief..
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It does not refute their belief.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Frank Goad said:
I want people who are from both nonbelief and belief sides to debate about this website and if it is just a parable: THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

I am sorry if I have posted this before.:(
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Hey frank.

The story IS a parable, meaning, it is a fictitious non-historical story that is used to teach important truths, especially about correct behavior.

the thing about parables though is that they are a kind of "realistic fiction" meaning that they could have happened. There is nothing in the story about Lazarus and the Rich Man that Jesus considered opposed to the way the universe actually runs. IOW, it is evidence that Jesus believed in an afterlife, not some soul sleep.

Basically, Jesus was a Jew and not a Jehovah's Witness.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
danieldemol said:
It does not refute their belief.
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I think it does because the lesson at the end of the parable is that the rich man and his brothers did not hear what Moses taught. And what Moses taught was the resurrection of the dead and not immortal souls leaving their bodies at death.
Jesus makes that clear when he says: "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Now, how can God be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Because, as Jesus says, "the dead are raised". And not because they have immortal souls that went to be with God when their bodies died.
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LightofTruth said:
I think it does because the lesson at the end of the parable is that the rich man and his brothers did not hear what Moses taught. And what Moses taught was the resurrection of the dead and not immortal souls leaving their bodies at death.
Jesus makes that clear when he says: "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Now, how can God be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Because, as Jesus says, "the dead are raised". And not because they have immortal souls that went to be with God when their bodies died.
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I notice you chopped short your quote presumably from Luke 20:37 which says in context,
“But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”‘
(Taken from the NIV)
So in other words Jesus is saying that they are already living to God. Why should the concept of the dead raising mean that people's spirits are not concious somewhere in the meantime? I think you are taking concepts that are not found in Luke and trying to read them back into Luke.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
danieldemol said:
I notice you chopped short your quote presumably from Luke 20:37 which says in context,
“But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”‘
(Taken from the NIV)
So in other words Jesus is saying that they are already living to God. Why should the concept of the dead raising mean that people's spirits are not concious somewhere in the meantime? I think you are taking concepts that are not found in Luke and trying to read them back into Luke.
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First of all, anyone who is not dead cannot be raised from the dead. The problem the Pharisees had is the same problem most of Christianity has. They can't hear.

Hear this. "Moses showed that THE DEAD rise". So, to God, they are not dead because they will be raised from the dead. On the principle that God calls things that be not as though they were.

Nowhere, in all of Scripture, can the terms "immortal soul" or "never dying soul/spirit" be found. That's because it is a heathen doctrine of which the pharisees, because they can't hear Moses and the prophets, believed.

Moses says that the Lord told Adam that HE was dust and to dust HE shall return. When Adam died he return to dust and was in the same condition as he was before he was created.

I could go on and on showing what the prophets also have said, but they can't hear.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
A person who thinks he is never going to die is a person who does not need to be raised from the dead.

Paul says that if the dead do not rise then your faith is empty and worthless. And if the dead do not rise then Jesus did not rise and he is therefore still dead.

They can't hear.
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LightofTruth said:
First of all, anyone who is not dead cannot be raised from the dead. The problem the Pharisees had is the same problem most of Christianity has. They can't hear.

Hear this. "Moses showed that THE DEAD rise". So, to God, they are not dead because they will be raised from the dead. On the principle that God calls things that be not as though they were.

Nowhere, in all of Scripture, can the terms "immortal soul" or "never dying soul/spirit" be found. That's because it is a heathen doctrine of which the pharisees, because they can't hear Moses and the prophets, believed.

Moses says that the Lord told Adam that HE was dust and to dust HE shall return. When Adam died he return to dust and was in the same condition as he was before he was created.

I could go on and on showing what the prophets also have said, but they can't hear.
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You seem unable to differentiate between physical death and spiritual death. You also do not seem to note that Genesis was not written by the author of Luke.
Like I said you are trying to read concepts not found in Luke back into Luke
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
danieldemol said:
You seem unable to differentiate between physical death and spiritual death. You also do not seem to note that Genesis was not written by the author of Luke.
Like I said you are trying to read concepts not found in Luke back into Luke
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Now you have another problem. One error creates more errors. The Scriptures nowhere speak of "spiritual death" .
Nowhere is anyone said to be "spiritually dead".

The trick is to start with the truth, then you won't need to add any of your own ideas into the Scriptures.

People are not spiritually dead. They are dead in trespasses and sin. And they are condemned to die the death of Adam.Which means they return to dust just as he did.
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LightofTruth said:
Now you have another problem. One error creates more errors. The Scriptures nowhere speak of "spiritual death" .
Nowhere is anyone said to be "spiritually dead".

The trick is to start with the truth, then you won't need to add any of your own ideas into the Scriptures.

People are not spiritually dead. They are dead in trespasses and sin. And they are condemned to die the death of Adam.Which means they return to dust just as he did.
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You act as though the scriptures never imply anything. In Luke 9:60 Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their own dead” (NIV) if I were to use the logic you displayed in saying the dead can’t be raised I would have to reply to Jesus that dead people can’t bury their own dead.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
danieldemol said:
You act as though the scriptures never imply anything. In Luke 9:60 Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their own dead” (NIV) if I were to use the logic you displayed in saying the dead can’t be raised I would have to reply to Jesus that dead people can’t bury their own dead.
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They are dead because they are dead in trespasses and sin. Which means they have not believed unto salvation. Which means they will die just as Adam, by returning to their native earth.

When a person believes, he is said to have life. Which means he will be raised from the dead at Jesus' coming.
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
LightofTruth said:
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.(Matt 13:34).

They have ears but they can't hear.
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By what I know, in the Bible, it is told when something is a parable and what it means.

I have understood that a parable is a type of metaphorical analogy. If the story of Lazarus is metaphorical analogy, from what it is a metaphorical analogy?
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
1213 said:
By what I know, in the Bible, it is told when something is a parable and what it means.

I have understood that a parable is a type of metaphorical analogy. If the story of Lazarus is metaphorical analogy, from what it is a metaphorical analogy?
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People who believe that a person has an immortal soul or spirit that either goes to heaven or a place of torment after death make the resurrection of the dead absurd and meaningless.
A person cannot be raised from the dead if he is not dead. It's just that simple.

The idea that people live on after they die was believed by many during Jesus' day and even long before that. However, if they believe what Moses and the Prophets had said then they wouldn't fall for that idea.

Moses did not teach about immortal souls going to heaven or a place of torment after death. Jesus says that Moses taught the resurrection of the dead.

The parable is directed toward the Pharisees and is based on the idea of souls or spirits going to heaven or a place of torment after death. The rich man class represents the Pharisees and the Lazarus class represent those who are poor but rich in faith.

The Pharisees were never interested in learning anything from Jesus. Their only interest was to catch him breaking the sabbath and have something to accuse him. And Jesus spoke in parables not to open their eyes but to keep them shut.

The parable is still working today on keeping shut the eyes of those who have not heeded Jesus' warning to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees. But they have Moses and the Prophets. So let them hear them, if they can......but they can't.
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
LightofTruth said:
People who believe that a person has an immortal soul or spirit that either goes to heaven or a place of torment after death make the resurrection of the dead absurd and meaningless.
...
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Interestingly, this world can be seen as the first death, where body really dies, this is not real life. And hades or grave is the place where people go from here to wait the judgment day. And then there is the second death, or eternal life with God.

…Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Sorry, I don’t think it was a parable. But, I don’t think it is a problem, if we don’t agree on this.
 
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