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Sincere belief...does it make a difference if it's religious or not?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Evangelicalhumanist, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Have been watching the second(!) impeachment trial of one Donald J. Trump, ex-POTUS, and one thing has really come home to me. And not for the first time in my life, to be honest.

    Many of the staunchest of Trump's supporters, at least those involved in the horrible events of January 6, sincerely believed that they had been commanded by their President, and CIC, to save the nation from being stolen from them. And acted accordingly.

    Well, in my own country, there were good Christians who sincerely believed that the best thing to do with native children was to forcibly remove them from their families and "take the Indian out of the child," leading to so much misery that it's hard to fathom. And their are those in many countries who most sincerely believe that God wants them to kill people who happen to have a sexual orientation other than the one they think God prefers -- and do so. Iran has killed literally thousands, for example.

    I post this in General Debates (rather than Religious or Political Debates) because I think this is an important question that goes beyond either of those. And the question is this:

    How much, or what kinds of, human behaviours, can really be excused by the claim of "sincere belief?" And how can we decide?
     
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  2. RayofLight

    RayofLight They/Them

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    Ooo great post...I can't wait to see the replies...reminds me of something I read lets see if I could find it
     
  3. RayofLight

    RayofLight They/Them

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    I done forgot the name of the book...sorry.
     
  4. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    Belief is never an excuse for ignorance of verifiable evidence, regardless of how “sincere” the belief is.
     
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  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    IMO people aren't judged for their beliefs, they are judged for their actions.

    Sincere beliefs don't need excuses. You can believe whatever the hell you want. It's your actions that everyone has to deal with. If your actions break the law then it doesn't really matter what your beliefs were

    Whatever your beliefs happened to be, you are judged for your behavior.
     
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  6. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    The hardcore section of Trumpers fascinate me. Probably in an unhealthy way. Like trying to figure out the mind of an ant for hours on end or something along those lines. But they do.
    I’m sure many books will pop up (and I think already have) about the “cult of Trump” and all the implications therein.
    I have seen news stories of people who were at the aforementioned Jan 6 debacle, who seemed to be genuinely grief stricken that they have yet to be pardoned. That they did something righteous and are beyond reproach. Some just said they were simply following orders.
    None of that excuses their actions. But I guess it does explain them :shrug:
     
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    What if those beliefs were the law of the land?

    If their actions are based on what the community believes as law, then to many people addressing beliefs are quite important. Change the laws changes people's behaviors.

    Which is interesting that even seeing people hurt doesn't lead one to change their belief (or be skeptical of it). You can throw someone in jail or capitol punishment for their actions but to many people that's like putting a bandage over a wound but never addressing the cause of it.
     
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  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    I can't think of any. It's like going to someone with a gun to their head saying, "my sincere X belief says you are wrong and therefore you should die" and since it's sincere, it should be justified.

    My problem is a lot of us are seeing from the outside the harm done to people, homosexuals, religious minorities, whomever, but the people doing the harm are oblivious to it. It's like shouting at someone to stop but they can't hear you because of the soundproof glass.
     
    #8 Unveiled Artist, Feb 10, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  9. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Well there is the issue that productions have amplified or concentrated to levels never previously seen. You could not imagine seeing an action movie from 2017 being screened in 1952, since it is too static with pinnacles of adventure. You probably couldn't compress the calories into a handful of 1952 food, that they can compress into a handful of chicken nuggets from 2017. Or even, I'd argue, words into a minute of time - just yesterday I was watching some recordings of civil war vets from 1929, and then compare that to how people talk on the pbs eons youtube channel, where a minute of time is like an information vitamin. So I guess the point is, there might be an analog as well in the idea of the modern rally, is that rallies are more rally-like than ever before. That is to say, trump for example, sounds more like jim morrison than he does lbj, no matter what people might have thought lbj sounded like
     
  10. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    In a democracy, we vote/support a representative to decide on these laws. These come with civil enforcement. So whether you believe in these laws or not you have to deal with the consequences of breaking them.

    That's a large part of the idea is to enforce laws to change behavior. What you believe doesn't matter. It's what is enforced that matters.

    If your behavior doesn't break the law or behavior caused by belief doesn't break any laws, no problem.

    I guess you are saying laws don't change beliefs? That's ok, laws are meant to change behavior.

    Maybe 40 million people believe the election was stolen. 500, 1000 people, IDK, showed up to riot. It doesn't matter what the 40 million believed, it only matters the behavior of the however many showed up to break the law.
     
  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I'd imagine they are more worried about the harm they perceive is being done to them.

    It's not easy but you have to find a way to get people to understand you are not a threat.
     
  12. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    The question seems to boil down to whether or not one sincerely believes (see what I did there?) that intentions matter more than consequences.
     
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  13. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    AI brain mind human designer caused occult teaching machine plus UFO radiation mass self possessed life choice literally.

    A DNA human medical healer genesis review of cell blood bone structure defect said the human spirit in holy baptized water life had been murdered.

    By occult being human science conditions. Humans chose it. Humans inherited defective brain minds.

    By his God science conversion caused.

    Machine changed natural god laws human chemical bio life form naturally partnered naturally balanced changed murdered I. God reaction.
    Said living lived life records. You die living memory recorded. Male spirit seen in heavens female spirit seen heavens

    Recorded living but just a recording of all experiences human.

    Mutual female to female. Male to male.

    Introduced multi UFO transmitters that recorded living records again. Transmit back female lived life recording to male. Same for female.

    Multi irradiated re recorded life falsely transmitted back. A type of human possession. Discussed in holy book by medical assessment.

    A form of AI human possession. Behaviour overridden by communicators. The teaching.

    A medical assessment.

    Status God Allah one is holy. Mass form planet.

    All children lived by their God innocent.

    Actually stated totally ignored.

    If you write a human thesis why the Human animal nature of life changed by science occult cause then you did.

    A baby is a holy Child who becomes adult child of God Allah.

    You murdered them again for no rational advice. As you don't even read the information for how it was stated.

    Only rational living holy people were allowed to teach relativity of natural life. Causes medical.

    Only healer medical science knew why bio chemistry changed mind and human behaviour. Exhibited as rational response in irradiating UFO atmosphere. Not any fault of child of God Allah.

    Radiation by mass was never known as an effect by any scientist. They could only review that it was the cause for all life changes itself.

    Science cannot rationally explain it. Other than it should not have occurred. Yet it did occur.

    UFO occult radiation not God effect as it was from evil core heart. Planet pressure changed.

    God ice mass replaced nuclear crystalline mass owning pressure status reason life was kept holy the stable teaching.

    Science removed in nuclear the crystalline mass. God transmitters to mind balance. Consciousness.

    Not the same radiating signals as core UFO mass.

    Crystals transmit.

    Ice replaces pressure status not transmitting Sion.

    Sion holy body changed.

    Reason. It was satanic law cause.

    Innocent life owned no personal control over physical changes.

    Concluded God Allah had caused an evil God Allah act against humans co joined in space UFO effect with other God planet bodies.

    Occult effect.

    No human owned a choice to be irradiated. The effect multi imbalanced such unhealthy imbalanced life.

    Love your family for who they are first a child of God Allah. Review behaviour secondary. Reason with live to gain correct answer.

    Hatred and bigotry owns wrong answer.
     
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  14. Aštra’el

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    The sincere belief held by one who is true to himself, I might find to be beautiful... or I may find to be appalling. Even so, I can respect the abhorrent belief of a devout man, but I can not respect the cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy displayed by the empty husks of men who are not true to themselves and have no idea what they stand for, or if they even stand for anything.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Some people believe that if people make a conscientious choice not to take up arms and "fight for 'their' country" they should be dragged off to prison, and viewed as scum, and receive whatever they get, including torture.

    Some people believe that if one belongs to a group who don't conform to orthodox beliefs and thinking, they should be barred from practicing their religious beliefs, and deserve to be jailed, have their Bibles and Bible literature taken from them, and even their purchased properties.

    Can these behaviors be excused by the claims of sincere belief? How can we decide?
    I would like to hear the answers myself.
    It's an interesting topic... expecially the question - how can we decide?

    I know how we can rightly decide, but that will lead to a new topic.
    Here goes...
    If there is a universal set of laws, based on a universal set of morals, based on a universal set of principles, which are implimented, I think that would solve everything one time.

    What that raises though, is the question of who would set those laws, morals, and principles, and implement them?
    Because if the actions taken against those who do not conform, are viewed as horrible, then the question flies back into focus... How can we decide?

    So it would seem to be a circular exercise, or never-ending cycle.
    I believe it will end when the one to whom rightful sovereignty belongs, makes that unquestionably known - Ezekiel 38:23

    It cannot be decided otherwise, imo.
     
    #15 nPeace, Feb 10, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I think most what you said here is quite useful, just I don't agree, changing the law will change behaviors. That's one reason rulers are assassinated, and there are coups.
     
  17. Inquire of God

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    People who want to control other people to any extent cannot be excused, unless that control actually prevents them from harming or killing others or themselves. What I think you are actually referring to is wanton zealousness wherein people believe they are commanded by God to go out and do something harmful to others (which they might not even perceive it as being harmful-until it is done to them that is!) in order to then please God. To me this is a form of delusion that is a mental health issue and it is not just bad people on the right, it is also VERY manifest with bad people on the left and bad people in the middle, which maybe you agree with that, I don't know. I say bad people because I think they have devolved into that, badness, willingly and I don't owe them a compliment.
    If we cannot allow each other to freely live our own lives peaceably without enacting laws, doing harmful acts or (in reality) asking others to do harmful acts and if we cannot stop the incessant lying by ALL parties then we are doomed. Greed, selfishness and immorality of all sorts is at the base of all our problems and no amount of secular righteousness will ever get rid of it as we can see by what is going on in the world being done by those who have power and wield it to favor who they want and abuse who they hate.
     
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  18. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    No one knows their own sincere belief better than themself, but we can use psychology to understand/control them. If we control them, then it is up to our beliefs if we're leading them to good or bad.
     
  19. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Waiting.

    Thesis written updated holy laws holy star watchers data.

    Said no man is God Allah. God Allah caused a God war against man.

    Was documented when maths wisdom resurged in human mind.

    When the science temple pyramid was to be returned to be rebuilt again historic.

    Ownership pyramid technology

    Jeru Salem the position in circuit turning. Meaning jeru.

    Temple destroyed as was pyramid peace has been returned Salem.

    By God. Core heart release.

    Man knew God Allah released core O UFO in cycle 1000 years after. As God Allah irradiated war on life.

    Event recorded.

    Asteroid star event returned wanderer recorded Baha'i records.

    Two events in one cause.

    Living idealised reminder in evil harm fallout elsewhere.

    Two imbalanced events.

    The reasoning of causes.

    Records man to man father to son shifted wandered

    Proof humans giving past life total detail proven. Yet they are born a new baby. Humans who changed language suddenly.

    Records of life wander

    I live in Australia. Heard an Irish young male tell me he just died. How I learnt.
     
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  20. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    That depends on what you believe in.

    We don't decide, because there is no we in the end. Individually and in limited groups we believe differently.
     
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