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sin
- Thread starter Spiderman
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Srivijaya
Active Member
Sure because a lot of it makes sense ethically, even without a God to punish you. Don't lie, kill, steal, commit adultery etc. Treat others as you would wish to be treated... All good basic principles for anyone regardless.
When it comes to not following religious dictates being considered a "sin", ie. not believing in the sky man or bowing to the mighty bong, then they mean zilch to anyone outside of that religion.
Just a note, and I will await atheist response. The Bible fails to describe a lot of things as sin that should be horrendous unthinkable sin like slavery.
Fortunately the morals and ethics of the world is not dependent on what the Bible describes as sin.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
I always like your thought provoking questions. And thou I am not an atheist, pardon me for offering a "perspective".
In my studies, sin is a result of evil, and evil is a result of ignorance (of truth).
Most things in the world, as long as their inner parts are hidden, stand upright and live. If they are revealed, they die, as is illustrated by the visible man: as long as the intestines of the man are hidden, the man is alive; when his intestines are exposed and come out of him, the man will die. So also with the tree: while its root is hidden, it sprouts and grows. If its root is exposed, the tree dries up. So it is with every birth that is in the world, not only with the revealed but with the hidden. For so long as the root of wickedness is hidden, it is strong. But when it is recognized, it is dissolved. When it is revealed, it perishes. That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were, nor are, nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment. - Gospel of Thomas
Jesus told us what to do. Seek and find. If no one seeks, they are ignorant (of truth). If they seek in part, they are knowledgeable in part.
What the orthodox give us (Bible) is not enough. There are good people who claim atheism, or agnostic, etc. But many are really saying "I do not believe orthodoxy" or the "Bible". I don't see atheists as a wrong group or faithless. I see them as people with questions that don't get answers, or don't like the answers (given by the orthodox).
I'll stop and not take much more time here. My point is that truth (that defeats sin) is in more places than the orthodox see or accept. The OT law does not dictate what is sin. Sin is a "result" of spiritual ignorance. Something that is not devoid in any church or religion. It's much more personal than being a puppet. It's the core of (your) existence (heart).
Sorry Pope if I highjacked the thread.
In my studies, sin is a result of evil, and evil is a result of ignorance (of truth).
Most things in the world, as long as their inner parts are hidden, stand upright and live. If they are revealed, they die, as is illustrated by the visible man: as long as the intestines of the man are hidden, the man is alive; when his intestines are exposed and come out of him, the man will die. So also with the tree: while its root is hidden, it sprouts and grows. If its root is exposed, the tree dries up. So it is with every birth that is in the world, not only with the revealed but with the hidden. For so long as the root of wickedness is hidden, it is strong. But when it is recognized, it is dissolved. When it is revealed, it perishes. That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were, nor are, nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment. - Gospel of Thomas
Jesus told us what to do. Seek and find. If no one seeks, they are ignorant (of truth). If they seek in part, they are knowledgeable in part.
What the orthodox give us (Bible) is not enough. There are good people who claim atheism, or agnostic, etc. But many are really saying "I do not believe orthodoxy" or the "Bible". I don't see atheists as a wrong group or faithless. I see them as people with questions that don't get answers, or don't like the answers (given by the orthodox).
I'll stop and not take much more time here. My point is that truth (that defeats sin) is in more places than the orthodox see or accept. The OT law does not dictate what is sin. Sin is a "result" of spiritual ignorance. Something that is not devoid in any church or religion. It's much more personal than being a puppet. It's the core of (your) existence (heart).
Sorry Pope if I highjacked the thread.
Not many atheists have responded concerning the specifics of comparison, but from the Humanist perspective, which would include atheists, you can compare the morals and ethics of Humanist Manifesto with the Biblical view of sin.
Atheists have no shame.
HonestJoe
Well-Known Member
I’m not convinced what the Bible calls sin is the same as what a lot of Christians consider sinful or “shameful”. In fact I suspect the views of most Christians would be much closer to those of their non-Christian contemporaries than to the literal word of the Bible. After all, the moral principles of people in the past and in other parts of the world are often significantly different to our own, even where they’re considered to have the same Christian basis.
In more general terms, people have always fudged rules and laws where they’re found inconvenient or difficult, internally justifying their indiscretions one way or another. Equally, we tend to have unspoken social rules and expectations which most people just learn and follow, regardless of their individual reasoning or subconscious drivers for doing so. Shame is a cultural creation and we can only feel it if we’re somehow taught to do so.
I'm sure many do, but they might not have a concept of 'sin' - perhaps the difference between right and wrong (as they see it) is enough for them? As in morals and ethics. Hence, shameful behaviour to an atheist might be in contravening any morals or ethics to which they normally subscribe. The emotion of shame is rather universal regardless of belief.