1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Sin and Repentance

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    Let's also be completely honest here. If someone challanged me on the validity of the Tanakh and it were important for me to convince them of such I would do so without trying to disprove the Vedics who have nothing to do with the validity of the Tanakh. If someone were to present challenges to specific aspects of the Tanakh and it were important to me to explain information in regards to their challenges I would deal with their challenges in a straight forward, historical, and logical way.

    I find that when challenges to the NT are brought up they are not dealt with in a straight forward, historical, or logical way. There is not one Jew or Noachide here trying to convince Christians to not beleive in the NT. We have been explaining why we don't hold by it. In a normal situation someone would simply say. "Okay that is what you Jews beleive. No problem. It is not important that you beleive something different."

    The difference is that often there is missionizing from Christians about the NT, where we Jews accept that no everyone agrees with us and it isn't important that anyone agrees with us and we don't missionize in order for people to agree with us. We also don't pretend as if things that out right don't agree with us do supposidly do. ;)
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,739
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    My point is that when we go back that far, we simply cannot say that "X" didn't actually exist.

    Also, if we look at both Torah and the "NT" in an inerrant manner, we're making a huge mistake, imo. Within Judaism, as I'm quite sure you're aware of, there's what's often referred to as "the meaning behind to words", thus avoiding literalistic tendencies. Plus, there simply is not one logical reason to believe in biblical inerrancy, especially since there are so many narratives that have what we call "variations".

    IMO, did Jesus fulfill all the "messianic prophecies"? No. Were all these prophecies inerrant to begin with? Not likely. Nor do I lose any sleep over this. IOW, I tend to take the approach "Whatever happened, happened".

    Just my "drift".
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,739
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    I certainly don't have a problem with the above.

    I certainly don't have a problem with the above.

    I certainly don't have a problem with the above.

    Notice the pattern? ;)
     
  4. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    Actually, we can say that there are some who say that X didn't exist if the information about said X doesn't provide realistic or sufficent details to prove that they did. We can further say that the information about X is questionable, or insignificant, if we find that the authors of the only information about X are extremely questionable, are not first hand, and that all of the people who could have witnessed X left no 1st hand accounts behind.

    The Torah and the NT are not compariable, for the same reasons you said. They don't even come from the same time period and they are also not maintained by the same types of people. The Hebrew Tanakh has preserved by Jews and the NT preserved by Christians.

    NEWS FLASH!!!! The NT as a "bible" is the Christian perspective and not something that is held by Torah based Jews for some really good reasons. If Christians want to accept NT as their bible, more power to them.

    Yet, it seems as if the Christian acceptance of the NT is not enough for "some" Christians. Some of them seem to not be satisfied with it and try to convince Jews of its authenticity and then they seem offended when some realistic challanges are presented.

    If someone were to challange me about any part of Jewish history I would not be offended and I could also stay on topic and not try challange the vality of another text to address challenges.
     
  5. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    So, we agree. The NT is not relevant to Torah based Jews and we will simply stay away from it and teach other Jews and Noachides to do the same; for the sake of safety and sanity. Christians can have it, keep it, sing kumbaya around a campt fire with, and do whatever they want with it.

    See, that wasn't so hard.
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,739
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    :)
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,739
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    You're not connecting the dots, but that's OK. :)

    Gotta go-- be back tomorrow, so take care.
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    What? You mean that we don't both agree with me that Jews and Christians don't have any need or reason to agree about Jesus and the NT? Well, there goes that Nobel Peace Prize I was hoping for. :)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,684
    Ratings:
    +179
    It sounds to me as if you'd like to erase history and replace your own revisionist version of what actually happened. If you took the time to study the New Testament, you would discover that it contains a very valuable history of Israel prior to the destruction of the Temple. Much of what is written in the New Testament has background support in the histories written by such people as Josephus, Tacitus and Seutonius. Archaeological discoveries, such as the inscription naming Pontius Pilate, found at Caesarea, along with coins etc, all confirm the records provided in the New Testament.

    One important way of verifying Jesus' existence is to work history in reverse. Things that exist today had their forebears, and so on. These clues lead us back to the foundations of Christianity, in the Holy Land, in the first century.

    The events of the New Testament are better supported by documentary and archaeological evidence than the human events described in the Torah. This is to be expected given the distance in time. What the New Testament does is ADD support to the truth of the Tenakh, because Jesus and the apostles quote and confirm the Hebrew Scriptures. Rather than denigrating the record provided in the New Testament, you should see it as a confirmation of the Tanakh as God's Word.
     
  10. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    A person can't erase what isn't there. For example, I asked one simple question about Acts 2:1-11, as a starting point, and that gets ignored. Further, I even asked a simple questions about 15 eyewitnesses accounts to the NT claim that Jesus fed 5,000 Jews. That also didn't get answered. Since I have read the NT before from matthew to relevations (in Aramaic, Hebrew translation from Greek, and English) I know what is in, what is not, and I also know the touchy authorship issues with it within the Christian community. (I.e. the Church Father origin of what went into the NT and the Church Father origin of the Gospel authorship). I also know about the Gospels that most Christians ignore/disregard such as Thomas, Judas, Mary, the extra Peter, etc. I have also never been able to find a Christian with a convincing reason why a) Jesus didn't write his own gospel, b) why the writings of the Jewish beleives in Jesus didn't survive and c) why Jesus's so called disciples wrote so little while a guy like Paul who wasn't there with them at the start ended up being the rock that church is founded on rather than Peter.

    These are only a few of the reasons why I and others have being saying that the NT isn't relevant for Torah based Jews, thus we are required by Hashem to disregard it. If it meets the criteria of Christians that is perfectly fine.

    Pontius Pilate? That is what you are trying to prove? You are trying to prove to me that Pontius Pilate existed? Okay, I agree with you that Pontius Pilate existed. He wasn't as weak, and he definately wasn't scared of Jews, as the NT claims him to be and was definately more dasturdly than the NT claims but we can definately agree that he existed. BTW We Jews knew Pontius Pilate existed w/o having to see the NT.

    On another note, can you show me where Josephus, Tacitus and Seutonius give the names of 15 or more Jews who were eyewitnesses to the NT claim of Jesus feeding 5,000 Jews? Also can you show me where Josephus, Tacitus and Seutonius give names of fathers, tribe, and descedents of Jesus's disciples? Can also provide me information from Josephus, Tacitus and Seutonius on why the Jewish followers of Jesus disappeared off the historical map within 2 generations of their start? Also, can you explain to me why Josephus's description of the Pharisees contradicts the NT's description of them?

    If don't want you don't have to answer these questions. At the end of the day it really isn't relevant to the Jewish existance.

    That is not how one check's history. One first starts with claimed eye-witness accounts. Then one works through local external historical records, archeology, etc.

    So you say, but when I ask some simple questions about the NT text in areas that I can see most Christians don't focus on there is dead silence. Besides, if you are saying that the Torah is questionable then the NT is double questionable since the NT authors seemed to think the Torah was correct.

    To a Christian the NT may have meaning but to a Torah based Jew it does not. The reason being.....drum role.....because Hashem warned Torah based Jews to stay away from things that have the track record that the NT and the Jewish followers of Jesus have had.

    Lastly, if you were really comfortable in the NT you would not be concerned that we Torah based Jews disregard it. You would simply be happy in what you beleive it is. hmmmm ;)
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,739
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    No, it's the fact that I never disagreed with any of your comments, which should tell you something. :)
     
  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    9,828
    Ratings:
    +768
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    Not all all.

    I've asked you why God telling Israel obvious statements like those we've debated, "Some Jews will die near wicked people; some Jews will die near wealthy people, a young woman will bear a child," etc. are either foretold prophecies or necessary for encouraging Israel.

    STILL WAITING.

    Why did God encourage Israel through his prophet that "In Armageddon, some Jews will die near wealthy people"?

    Put differently, who gives a hoot?

    But Yeshua the Messiah:

    The Lord has made bare His holy arm
    In the eyes of all the nations;
    And all the ends of the earth shall see
    The salvation of our God.
    [Jesus stripped bare and witnessed internationally]

    13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently;
    He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
    [Jesus lifted on the cross, then lifted internationally by billions of Gentiles]

    14 Just as many were astonished at you,
    So His visage was marred more than any man,
    And His form more than the sons of men;
    [Jesus mocked, beaten nearly beyond recognition, a sacrificed lamb]

    15 So shall He sprinkle many nations.
    Kings shall shut their mouths at Him;
    For what had not been told them they shall see,
    And what they had not heard they shall consider.
    [Gentiles brought to Tanakh, salvation and the gospel from Acts and onward]

    Who has believed our report?
    And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    [Jews despise their own Messiah, revealed first to Jews . . . then to the nations]

    2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
    And as a root out of dry ground.
    [Prophesied branch from the felled stump of the Davidic kings, a tender child grown to a man]

    He has no form or comeliness;
    And when we see Him,
    There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
    [Not a handsome man, Judas had to identify Him with a kiss, beaten badly for our sin]

    3 He is despised and rejected by men,
    A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
    [Grieved over Jerusalem and His Jewish people, despised and mocked for us]

    And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
    [Disciples fled, the rabbis mocked Him on His cross]

    4 Surely He has borne our griefs
    And carried our sorrows;
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten by God, and afflicted.
    [He brings believers joy through His redemption]

    5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    [Literally wounded and bruised for our sin]

    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    [He is our shalom and a miracle cure, He also heals people spiritually/holistically where they are not cured]

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
    [Humans sin and turn from God "naturally", Jews reject the missing Temple sacrifices for mitzvot and prayer and the way of salvation NOT found in Tanakh which is to TRUST GOD for salvation]

    7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He opened not His mouth;
    He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
    And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    So He opened not His mouth.
    [Jesus refused to defend Himself at trial, but was ultimately rejected for answering when adjured under oath that HE IS GOD]

    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
    And who will declare His generation?
    For He was cut off from the land of the living;
    For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
    [Held at Caiaphas's home, we preached in His Name, He died for Israel first]

    9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
    But with the rich at His death,
    Because He had done no violence,
    Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
    [He died for the crime of being KING OF ISRAEL, died amongst thieves, was honored in an unused, wealthy Pharisee's tomb]

    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
    He has put Him to grief.
    When You make His soul an offering for sin,
    He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
    [God willed His death, He shall RISE FROM THE DEAD, FOR ETERNAL LIFE]

    11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
    By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
    For He shall bear their iniquities.
    [From one sin of Adam man is ruined, for billions of sins, Messiah died and justified many]

    12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.
    [His Name is great and He is the most influential person ever/still, though He isn't even on Earth! PRAISE YESHUA MELEKH MOSHIACH!]
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    5,492
    Ratings:
    +3,012
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Actually yes, repeatedly.
    So now you want to mix up your bad translations of different statements and ask why they are either foretold OR necessary for encouraging (as if those two are choices exclusive of each other or exclusive of other options)? You really need to regain your focus. You haven't read the answers I have given and now you are shifting the question? You will be still waiting if your method is to ignore responses.

    Um, why do you inject "Armageddon" and the concept of "encouraging"?

    Put differently, if you start with poor translations and no skill at understanding the base text, then asking why someone who doesn't subscribe to your bad translations doesn't agree with the conclusions that they (erringly) lead you to is ridiculous. So go on and worship your dead man-god because your mistakes and those of those you follow lead you to that. One day, when you decide to learn a little, you might just change your mind.
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,684
    Ratings:
    +179
    The scriptures speak more eloquently than I can.

    Here is what Jesus said after his resurrection from the dead.

    'And he [Jesus] said unto them [Cleopas and an unnamed disciple], These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    Then opened he their understanding that they might understand the scriptures, And he said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.'

    Are these the words of a liar? Did he not have witnesses?

    'And he [Jesus] beheld them [priests, scribes and elders], and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
    Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.'

    Apt words at a time of soul searching and repentance!
     
    #234 Redemptionsong, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    Okay. Then, do you agree that Christians should happy with what they hold by?
     
  16. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    Yes. The person who wrote that was definately lying. Also, it is not like English was being spoken during the time that the NT authors were coming up with their stuff.
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,739
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    We are what we are, much like you are what you are. Exchanging opinions and beliefs is not a sin intrinsically, which is largely why we're here exchanging opinions and beliefs, right?
     
  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    I don't think you understood the question.

    I, for example, would not present something to Christians to tell them that something they have needs something Jewish to make it complete or understandable. As far as I am concerned Christians don't really need anything from Jews.

    So, if I start the conversation with a question to Christians about opinions and beleifs they hold by I can accept the answer that Christians give and leave it at that. That doesn't happen in the reverse situaiton. There are times when a person asks for what Jews beleive and then there are Christians left and right chiming in to tell people incorrect things about Jews. Most Jews would not do this when a question comes up about Christians beleifs that are directed toward Christians. It almost comes off as if the Christians who do this are not satisified with something in their beleif system. Also, given the existance of Christian missionaries who make a focus on converting Jews their mission it draws a bit of suspicion.

    Also, if all this is an exchange of opinions and beleifs as you mention then why does the statement, "Jews and Christians don't have any need or reason to agree about Jesus and the NT" seem to be a problem? Is that statement not legitimate to you and if so why not?
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,739
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    I never said it was a problem. To each, his/her own.
     
  20. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Ratings:
    +307
    Religion:
    Torath Mosheh
    Right, but are we able to agree that what I stated is the case? Jews and Christians don't have any need or reason to agree about Jesus and the NT

    I.e. do you consider the statement to be true?
     
Loading...