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Featured Sin and Repentance

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    It means what the Rambam wrote in the Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim

    אף ישוע הנוצרי שדימה שיהיה משיח, ונהרג בבית דין--כבר נתנבא בו דנייאל, שנאמר "ובני פריצי עמך, יינשאו להעמיד חזון--ונכשלו" (דנייאל יא,יד). וכי יש מכשול גדול מזה: שכל הנביאים דיברו שהמשיח גואל ישראל ומושיעם, ומקבץ נדחיהם ומחזק מצוותן; וזה גרם לאבד ישראל בחרב, ולפזר שאריתם ולהשפילם, ולהחליף התורה, ולהטעות רוב העולם לעבוד אלוה מבלעדי ה'
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It means that he could trace his lineage back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And, indeed, to Adam.
     
  3. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    The NT authors' claims about his varying lineagues may meet Christian standards for defining someone as acceptable in the Jewish community but they don't mee tthe standards given by Hashem for us Jews. Besides there are a lot of Jews who can produce such a list back to Adam, Avraham, Yitzhaq, and Ya'aqov. The difference is whether someone's list can be validated by Jews in the way that Hashem commanded in the Torah. The two differing lists in the NT do not meet this requirement. This may have been why Paul was trying to convince his followers to not be involved in debates about geneologies.

    You guys have your standards and we have different standards that Hashem commanded us to have.
     
    #203 Ehav4Ever, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I would claim exactly the same authority for the New Testament. It was delivered by God to the Jews, and through the Jews to the rest of the world. The documentary evidence supporting these scriptures is very strong. You don't need family history to establish a line of descent because Jesus was the last generation established according to descent. Matthew 1:1 reads, 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ'. It's one generation because all who receive Christ by faith are of the body of Christ, not independent of him.

    The Gospels are not anonymous; they bear the names of the writers and give specific accounts of the various roles of Jesus as anointed Messiah, Servant, Son of Man and Son of God. The witnesses are numerous, and the message that bears their names has been carried forward in an unbroken manner ever since. Your criticism of the New Testament scriptures does not hold true to the facts.

    The prophetic week of Genesis will eventually establish the truth of Jesus' claims to be the Messiah. As the Talmud states, the Messiah for Jews should have appeared in the fifth millennium but (through blindness, or sin) he appeared not. So now the final episode has to be played out. Jews must be recalled to their land, and the process of refining must begin. But repentance is still required, and what does that mean?
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I like to know the bottom line! At least we can now discuss the issue from. the standpoint of your total rejection.

    Does this mean that you also reject all the miracles that he is said to have performed?

    What do you think Jesus intended to gain from his lies and deceit?
     
  6. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    That's fine. I'm just honestly surprised that you never knew this about Jews.
    The view: he may have performed them and he may have not, but either way, they don't prove anything about him, other than that he may have been talented (beyond woodwork).
    Depends if you agree with the Christian version of Jesus or any of the Jewish versions of Jesus.
    Christian version - it seems that he was unintentionally lying and thought he was doing good, but actually wasn't. It's like what Rabbi Moshe Luzzatto wrote about the false prophet Tzidkiyyah ben Kna'anah: he knew he was trying to call on a prophecy from Ba'al but he was such a newbie in his field that when the dark-force-prophecy came, he thought he had received a real prophecy from God. Jesus thought he was doing good but was actually doing bad.

    The Jewish versions, described in the Talmud, depict different individuals called "Yeshu" doing witchcraft, worshipping idols and leading others astray. Why does any person do this? They fall to the pull of their evil inclination. In one story, it sort of seems like he's exacting revenge against his own teacher and rabbi.
     
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  7. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Prophecy, biblically speaking, also includes encouragement in difficult circumstances, yes. Now all you have to do is figure out for yourself why God felt it necessary to tell Jewish people that might die near rich people or near wicked people. :)

    The servant songs of Isaiah, especially 52-53, are so obviously describing Yeshua, that it seems (as usual for non-believing Jews) that all kinds of hoops are jumped through to avoid the obvious. No one can reasonably argue I can't find the singular in the passage, for example. I was Bar Mitzvah and had access since childhood to Soncino and other very fine Jewish English translations.

    I did read all your answers. I'm still waiting for answers to the questions posed by the passage, answers that are comprehensible and a little bit comprehensive.
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    You claim that but Jews from the 1st cent until now don't claim it. The only Jews who did claim it disappeared within two generations of their start. The Torah makes it clear that when that happens that group was not holding by the Torah that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai.

    Again, what you are stating is a Christian standard that Christians hold by. That is up to you to decide for yourself to go by. Yet, Torah based Jews and Noachides know different. The difference is that we aren't trying to prove it to you or convince you to do something different than what you are.
     
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  9. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Ehhh...his genealogy is quite confusing. And for all we know, he may have been a mamzer, a bas**** by Jewish standards. So...I'll go with no on that one.
     
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  10. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    For what purpose is such a discussion needed? If you want to know what we Jews hold by that has aleady been provided in a great amount of detail. We Jews already know what the various types of Christianities hold by. So it would seem that only goal of such a discussion, from the Christian side is to have a never ending debate.

    So answer all your questions here it is.
    1. There is no historical evidence to prove to Jews that the NT is a reliable source of information.
      • The method of evidence is provided in the Hebrew Tanakh and has already been provided on this thread.
    2. There is no trustworthy evidence to the authorship of the gospels.
    3. The NT gospels contains information that is claimed to be historical but has been debunked various historians.
    4. When NT supportors are asked simply questions that Hashem required Jews to present when claims are made, like those in the NT, the NT supportors often don't have any answers what so ever, they ignore the question, or they try to ask a question rather than answering it.
    5. The NT contains information that Hashem warned Jews and Noachides to stay away from.
    6. The NT contains information that has caused the death, toture, and destruction of Jews/Jewish communities at the hands of followers of Jesus and adherants to the NT.
    7. The NT contains information that has caused numerous Jews to be forced out of keeping the Torah as Hashem gave it at Mount Sinai.
    8. The NT authors make claims about an individual called Jesus that was Jews know is not historically accurate.
    9. The NT makes claims about Jesus that contradict what the Tanakh states concerning a future Davidic king.
    10. The Hebrew Tanakh is clear that there is no such thing as rejecting the Davidic king who will be the mashiahh.
      • The results of his actions will cause so much adherance to the Torah in the land of Israel that there is no such thing as "rejecting him."
      • If he makes claims that are not proven from the Hebrew Tanakh and(or) if he dies not doing what the Hebrew Tanakh states then Hashem has declared that he was not mashi'ahh and may not have even been a Davidic king.
    11. The Torah commands Jews to distance ourselves from individuals like the Jesus who inspired the NT, as it is written by the NT authors, based on the above 1-9.
    12. If adherants to the NT want to prove to us Jews and Noachides something from the NT they [adherants to the NT] must adhere to doing so as Hashem gave us in the Hebrew Torah to investigate a matter.
    So, there you have it. Short answers that pretty much covers every question you have asked and will ask about why we Jews are as we are.
     
  11. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Can you provide names of about 15 Jews who state thier names, father's names, and tribal descent their account that they witnessed those miracles? The NT claims that Jesus fed 5,000 Jews so you should have no problem providing the names of some of those Jews who claim they witnessed them. BTW the NT gospel authors did not write their accounts as they witnessed and names of the gospel authors were slapped on their by the Church Fathers.

    Given that there are a number of Jewish texts that claim that various rabbis in Jewish history were doing miracles you would have to prove that the Hebrew Tanakh classifies miracles as a method of determinging who is a Davidic king and prove a method of determing how one makes a distinction if 100 Jews are able to perform the same exact miracles.

    If you can do that then maybe we have something to talk about. If not, then like I said before it would appears that your side is seeking endless debate.

    In terms of what Jesus intended to gain from lies and deceit. If he even existed at all, which some people doubt, he probably wanted the attention that comes from having a cult following. Similar to David Koresh, Shabbatai Tzvi, Yisrayl Hawkins, the numerous false mashi'ahh's who were in Yemen, Jim Jones, and any other cult leader. Some of them actually beleive they are something more than what they are and the people around them suffer for it.
     
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  12. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    This ma help.



     
    #212 Ehav4Ever, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  13. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    They didn't need unlocking. The Jews had a pretty good idea what they meant thousands of years before Jesus was a twinkle in his mother's eye. They maintain the understanding they had and have. The Christian understanding of Scripture is nothing like the Jewish understanding of Scripture. The most crazy thing about this is that the Christian understanding came thousands of years after the Jewish one, yet the Christians turn to the Jews and say their understanding is wrong. This is nonsense.

    Harel has more Jewishness in his left thumb nail than Jesus ever had in his whole life.

    It is derived from Greek thinking. Many Christians I know actually seem to take a pride in this. You won't find a virgin birth or a hypostatic union or a human-god deity in Jewish thinking.

    And I guess he completely failed at that. I mean, most Jews aren't Christians.

    I doubt he did any such thing. That unfortunate circumstance is thanks to Paul.

    So? There are many unlearned Jews who go after anything that looks promising. Having a band of followers from rural backwaters, people who can't read or write and haven't learned any indepth theology or Jewish philosophy, are going to be pretty easy to convince.

    We don't know that they were.

    Yeah, anyone can claim this.

    Yeah, if you're doing the right kind of spiritual thing.

    Also, it depends on the circumstance. I doubt Assyria or Bavel had any spiritual strength whatsoever, but G-d used them against Israel for his own purposes.


    The Jews are still here. Despite evrything the Christians did to them, they remain. I'd call that pretty impressive.

    Thank G-d.

    The option to become a Noahide was already there; they didn't need anything new. It's irritating that Christians seem to throw this by the wayside when it's been there the whole time. No-one ever needed Christianity to be in HaShem's favour.

    Because it was the most widely understood language at the time.

    So here's the evidence it wasn't G-d breathed. Cool.

    Or because Greek was the lingua franca.

    Of course they will. The message is incompatible with Torah.

    He was a false prophet and he did deserve to die.

    It's possible. It's also possible that the gospel writers put words in his mouth that he never spoke.
     
    #213 Rival, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  14. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, but I'm unclear on how one can really quantify Jewishness, in particular, Christians. Either a person is Jewish or they aren't. Jesus probably was. I probably am. That's it.
     
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  15. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I was using my usual hyperbole and dramatics :)

    But I meant in practice. Jesus is said to have taught his disciples to break Shabbat, he was nasty to his mother and so on. I doubt you do these.
     
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  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But this has been answered repeatedly already by me and others. All you have to do is figure out why you have been ignoring the answers.
    The servant songs are so obviously and explicitly about Israel that it seems (as usual for misled Christians) that all kinds of hoops are jumped through to avoid the obvious
    That is SO cute! A bar mitzvah! Now you are an expert, ready to teach others! Sadly, you can't find the plural.
    No, you might have looked at some of them but I think we both know that you couldn't have read them all. The fact that you say that they are not comprehensible (problematic -- what you mean is that they are not comprehensible by YOU; the flaw is not in them) means that you didn't really read them.
     
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  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Did Jesus speak lies?

    These are the words Jesus spoke; 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.'

    Are these the words of a liar?
     
  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    There is no evidence that such a person named Jesus, as described in the NT, existed or even said what you wrote above. I.e. the author's of the NT (one to two generations after the events they are claiming happened) are the only ones who claim that such a person said such a thing. So, historically the authors of the NT were willing to lie and they had no problem inserting information about Jews they described as breaking Torah as Hashem gave it at Mount Sinai.

    Asking if Jesus was a liar is like asking if Harry Potter was a liar.

    Thus, the statements you mention above don't have any meaning to us Torah based Jews since we have always known that the Torah is correct, Hashem gave it, and that Torath Mosheh has been kept.
     
    #218 Ehav4Ever, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And one could say the same about Adam, Abraham, Moshe, etc. IOW, it's hard to prove much of anything that may or may not have taken place thousands of years ago.

    Thus, I pretty much question anything and everything, including my own sanity at times.
     
  20. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    I don't have a problem with someone saying that. Besides, if Adam, Abraham, and Moshe didn't exist then there goes the entire NT. Let's keep things in perspective. The NT relies on the Hebrew Tanakh to be true BUT the Tanakh doesn't rely on the NT to be true. i.e. if the NT is proven wrong there is no effect on the Hebrew Tanakh, Torath Mosheh, or Jews at all. If the Tanakh is proven to be false there goes the entire NT.

    So, what exactly is the point again?
     
    #220 Ehav4Ever, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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