So if god forgives you, you in turn forgive god?
They are inseparable?
If I forgive someone for harming me, that's fine. If I felt he forgave me because I forgave him, that isn't true in itself-he had no role in it (forgiveness is an action not a feeling of being forgiven).
The person who forgives who thinks they are forgiven because of it, that's fine. It's just a feeling of faith (hope that one has been forgiven). But it's the act of forgiveness of the other that makes it so not the feeling of the original person (say myself above) who forgave. I'd assume the actual act of forgiveness would be more substantial I guess than the feeling of receiving it.
It's about 'embodying forgiveness' (embodying the Spirit). Once one does this, all is forgiven. It's an 'inside job'. Not dependent on what others do or do not do. And God has already forgiven us all, regardless. (According to Christianity.) So the only way we can fail, now, is to reject that gift.
Many people, if not most, know they have sinned. They believe they don't need forgives and don't (and shouldn't) expect it from others who harmed them. They reject anyone who forgives them because they have not said nor believe that other people can do so. So, that person who forgives is overstepping his or her boundaries thinking someone needs something the other says he does not need.
They are quite confused, it seems to me. Forgiveness is a choice. Both for others, and for ourselves. It does not require anyone else's consent. All it requires is that we know we have done wrong, and will continue to do wrong even though we don't want to, and try not to. And that we are forgiven for this, as we forgive others for it. And as God has forgiven us. (Again, this is the Christian perspective.)
It's not rejection of forgiveness but rejection of someone who forgives them because the former does not need to be forgiven regardless how much the latter thinks he should.
It's like rejecting a gift one doesn't need and never asked for. Only believers say they need it but it's not their place to say.
Yes, the failure is in wrongly assuming that one does no wrong (in living selfishly), and therefor needs no forgiveness, nor has any reason to forgive anyone else. Such a person is blind to the reality of his own (sinful) condition, and has rejected the divine grace being offered to him, that would save him from himself.
Forgiveness as a state of being? I would think it's an action from the charity we have within us. We forgive "because" we have charity and humility to do so.
That "divine" spirit within us is what Christians call the "holy spirit". And when we recognize it, and set our own selfish desires aside so as to allow ourselves to become the living embodiment of that 'holy spirit', we become like Christ. Christ was the human embodiment of God's divine spirit. And that's what Christians are supposed to be trying to become. Christianity is all about recognizing that divine spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity that is within us, and allowing it to 'become us' so as to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help us help others to do the same.
Rejecting makes it sound like it's the fault of the person who says they don't need forgiveness by someone else.
It is. Because they're wrong. We all have harmed others due to our own ignorance and selfishness. Just as we all have been harmed by the ignorance and selfishness of others. And we all need forgiveness as a result. That forgiveness has been given to us, by God, and is now ours to have and to share. All we have to do is accept it, and share it. This does not require anyone else's consent, or cooperation.
Their love and kindness comes from when they forgive themselves not forgiven by others. They may reject the concept of the holy spirit but not the context in which you are talking about.
The "holy spirit" is the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity that we all have within us. Arguing over what to call it is irrelevant. Call it "Bob" if you want to. Or just call it "Agape". It doesn't matter what you call it. What matters is that you recognize it within you, and that you choose to allow it to become you (to control your thoughts and actions, instead of the fear, and selfishness, jealousy, and so on that also exists within us all, as human beings).
We can reject the spirit of good and kindness within ourselves.
Yes, we can. Because we have been given the ability to choose for ourselves who are, and who we will become.
Why does one need to be forgiven by the holy spirit (something outside themselves) when kindness and goodness comes from within?...Kindness and goodness brings out the act of forgiving oneself and others. We don't need the holy spirit to forgive because we already have the means to forgive we just need to do it.
The "holy spirit" is not outside of the self. It is God's spirit within mankind.
I don't see how this has to do with someone else forgiving us for our sins since we do know that we sin we just know we don't need someone else to forgive us for it.
We need forgiveness for what we do and have done to others. We can get that forgiveness by forgiving others for what they've done and do to us. That's all there is to it. You seem to be hung up on the idea that others have to consent to this forgiveness. They don't.
Aka. We know that we reject good when we sin, but we also know that we forgive ourselves for that rejection and thus experience goodness "without" needing other people to do the forgiving for us.
Only if we are sincerely trying NOT to sin against anyone. We will fail, but so long as we are trying, and we are willing to forgive others for their failures, we can trust that we will be forgiven for our failures, in turn. And this does not depend on the consent of those we have sinned against.
