Simplified Psychology: Conservative and Progressive Ideology

[joe1776]

Defining arrogance: In order to measure something we need a standard. Since there is no fair standard for measuring human worth, we are all born equal. However, we are not all born equal in abilities. Arrogant people 'stack the deck in their favor' by imagining that their abilities, those gifted to them at birth, are the standard for measuring human worth. For example, arrogant people who are gifted with high intelligence use intelligence as a standard while arrogant people who are born gifted with athletic ability use athleticism as a standard.

Intelligence, athleticism, arrogance, empathy -- most, if not all, human traits are inherited in a range from low to high. Most people will fall into the average group on most traits while being high or low on a few. Some traits (like arrogance and empathy) oppose each other. When one is high, the other will be low.

Our species is, and probably always has been, on an upward moral trend. We humans are treating each other better right now than at any time in our history. (A link at the bottom of this post will take you to my argument with evidence supporting this claim) This historic upward trend supports equality. A few examples:

• equality for slaves
• equality for women
• equality for homosexuals
• equality for the children of the poor
• equality for the insane or the handicapped
• equality for all minority groups

People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance. They oppose the upward moral trend because the concept of equality challenges their need to feel superior to others.

People who favor progressive positions welcome change because they are aligned with the upward moral trend. The thought that all other human beings are equal in human worth doesn't threaten their self-image.


Global Harmony is Inevitable

 

[Augustus]

People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance.

How do you measure arrogance in a rigorous manner? What is 'average arrogance'?

Do you consider yourself to be of 'below average' arrogance?

 

[joe1776]

How do you measure arrogance in a rigorous manner? What is 'average arrogance'?

The English language provides a rough measure. We don't create many words to describe people with an average or below average problem with arrogance but there are many which describe people with an above-average to severe problem.

Do you consider yourself to be of 'below average' arrogance?

Yes, but I inherited an above-average problem and I've reduced it by recognizing the behavior and resisting the urge to satisfy the need.

Centre-right ideology generally doesn't 'oppose' upward mobility though, it has a different view of how this is best achieved.

Without specific examples, I can't say whether I agree or disagree.

 

[Augustus]

The English language provides a rough measure. We don't create words to describe people with an average of below average problem with arrogance but there are many which describe people with an above-average to severe problem.

You said: 'People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance.'

Given centre-left/centre-right political ideologies (over time) tend to be relatively balanced in western countries, people who favour conservative positions are most likely to be average.

Also, arrogance can manifest itself in many ways "I'm rich because I'm better", or "He's only rich because he had advantages I never had" (I am more deserving than him).

A self-righteous belief in one's moral superiority can also be a manifestation of arrogance, and such a belief is definitely common in both conservatives and progressives.

Ask a progressive who is more arrogant and they'll say conservatives. Ask a conservative and they'll say progressives.

How do you measure this objectively?

Yes, but I inherited an above-average problem and I've reduced it by recognizing the behavior and resisting the urge to satisfy it.

Just like most people believe they are of above average intelligence, I bet most people believe they are of below average arrogance. We can't all be right.

'Arrogance' is also far harder to quantify than intelligence, and intelligence is almost impossible to quantify (IQ isn't intelligence). It's very much in the eye of the beholder. We downplay it in ourselves and overstate it in those who we disagree with on issues we find emotionally important.

Without specific examples, I can't say whether I agree or disagree.

I deleted that bit before you replied as I noticed I'd misread 'upward morality' for 'upward mobility'.

 

[joe1776]

You said: 'People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance.'

Given centre-left/centre-right political ideologies (over time) tend to be relatively balanced in western countries, people who favour conservative positions are most likely to be average.

You are trying to find exceptions to my general statement linking conservatism to arrogance. Do you agree with my position as a general statement?

Also, arrogance can manifest itself in many ways "I'm rich because I'm better", or "He's only rich because he had advantages I never had" (I am more deserving than him).

True but not relevant to my argument.

A self-righteous belief in one's moral superiority can also be a manifestation of arrogance, and such a belief is definitely common in both conservatives and progressives.

True, but once again, you are looking for exceptions to my general statement. Do you disagree that as a general rule progressives are not likely to be arrogant?

Ask a progressive who is more arrogant and they'll say conservatives. Ask a conservative and they'll say progressives. How do you measure this objectively?

We can't "measure it objectively." However, we can answer the question logically -- which I did in the OP.

Just like most people believe they are of above average intelligence, I bet most people believe they are of below average arrogance. We can't all be right.

Of course not, however the opinions of others who observe their behavior and know them fairly well is a reliable indicator.

'Arrogance' is also far harder to quantify than intelligence, and intelligence is almost impossible to quantify (IQ isn't intelligence). It's very much in the eye of the beholder. We downplay it in ourselves and overstate it in those who we disagree with on issues we find emotionally important.

I think intelligence is easy to measure when people are tested. And there are several tests that are reliable. You can see arrogant behavior. You can't see intelligence.

I can't guess Donald Trump's IQ, but it seems obvious to me that he is extremely arrogant. So, the psychologists who describe him as a narcissist ( highly arrogant) are correct in my opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ya know.....when "arrogance" is one of the things measured
& attributed to groups of people, this sure seems more of a
value judgement than objective psychological trait.

And what is "conservative" or "progressive"...or "liberal"?
Do the terms refer to N Ameristanian political labels, or
traits more general? I ask cuz many political "liberals" are
illiberal or very set in their ways. And many political
"conservatives" are progressive, & open to change.

 

[joe1776]

Ya know.....when "arrogance" is one of the things measured
& attributed to groups of people, this sure seems more of a
value judgement than objective psychological trait.

It's not a "value judgment" when reasons are given to support that conclusion.

And what is "conservative" or "progressive"...or "liberal"?
Do the terms refer to N Ameristanian political labels, or
traits more general? I ask cuz many political "liberals" are
illigeral, & many political "conservatives" are progressive.

I'm using the terms currently in common usage in the media to describe political ideologies.

Your statement that many political conservatives are progressive doesn't make sense according to the common usage definitions of these terms.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not a "value judgment" when reasons are given to support that conclusion.

Everyone gives reasons for their opinions.
So I'm not inclined to believe that the existence of reasons removes value judgment.

I'm using the terms currently in common usage in the media to describe political ideologies.

Your statement that many political conservatives are progressive doesn't make sense according to the common usage definitions of these terms.

I recall Dick Cheney being pro-gay marriage back when Bil
l & Hillary said that marriage was for a man & woman only.
This dichotomy is pretty common.
There are few groups more conservative than liberal feminists.

 

[joe1776]

Everyone gives reasons for their opinions.
So I'm not inclined to believe that the existence of reasons removes value judgment.

When someone gives you reasons to support their claim, they've given you a logical argument.

If you disagree with the argument in the OP, you can give reasons to counter it. Your opinion that it's a "value judgment" won't cut it.

I recall Dick Cheney being pro-gay marriage back when Bill & Hillary said that marriage was for a man & woman only. This dichotomy is pretty common. There are few groups more conservative than liberal feminists

The fact that ALL conservatives and ALL progressives are not ALWAYS consistent doesn't render the conclusion to my argument a "value judgment."
.

 

[Revoltingest]

When someone gives you reasons to support their claim, they've given you a logical argument.

If you disagree with the argument in the OP, you can give reasons to counter it. Your opinion that it's a "value judgment" won't cut it.

The fact that ALL conservatives and ALL progressives are not ALWAYS consistent doesn't render the conclusion to my argument a "value judgment."
.

We'll have to agree to disagree about "arrogance" being a psychological term.

 

[joe1776]

We'll have to agree to disagree about "arrogance" being a psychological term.

Arrogance isn't what psychologists would call it. Their term to describe the very same attitude is narcissism. I don't use narcissism because I'm not a psychologist writing for other psychologists.

 

[Augustus]

You are trying to find exceptions to my general statement linking conservatism to arrogance. Do you agree with my position as a general statement?

You said: 'People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance.' You are not framing it as 'arrogant people are more likely to be conservative', but 'conservatives are likely to be arrogant'.

It's not an 'exception' to point out that the average person is likely to be average. I think there is little difference between the average conservative and average progressive.

True, but once again, you are looking for exceptions to my general statement. Do you disagree that as a general rule progressives are not likely to be arrogant?

It's not an 'exception', it is a wholesale rejection.

I've met countless insufferably arrogant progressives, just as I've met countless insufferably arrogant conservatives.

For discussion's sake, let's assume conservatives, on average, are a little bit more arrogant. This would be a completely meaningless predictor on the individual level.

It's like having a coin that is 51% biased to heads against 49% tails. This has almost no predictive value for the outcome of any given toss, even though the average favours heads.

An assumption about an abstract group that doesn't have any meaningful predictive value about any given individual in that group is just prejudice. It's the kind of nonsense that racialists use to present their group as 'superior', and thus themselves as superior.

Of course not, however the opinions of others who observe their behavior and know them fairly well is a reliable indicator... We can't "measure it objectively." However, we can answer the question logically -- which I did in the OP.

You are making generic judgements about millions of people, not people you know well. Judgements that are clouded by your own personal biases. How do you know your logic is not simply a cognitive bias based on your own arrogance and/or selective perception/confirmation bias?

Do you accept that we are more likely to judge people as arrogant when we disagree with them on emotionally important issues?

I can't guess Donald Trump's IQ, but it seems obvious to me that he is extremely arrogant. So, the psychologists who describe him as a narcissist ( highly arrogant) are correct in my opinion.

Trump is hardly representative of the average conservative though. He's even extreme for a politician.

Which do you think would be a better predictor of arrogance:

a) Generic conservatism/progressivism
b) Person is a successful politician

 

[Mock Turtle]

Arrogance isn't what psychologists would call it. Their term to describe the very same attitude is narcissism. I don't use narcissism because I'm not a psychologist writing for other psychologists.

But the two are not synonymous - as in, a narcissist is usually arrogant, but someone can be arrogant without being a narcissist. For example, narcissism might affect much of a person's life, whilst arrogance might only affect certain attitudes in some without all the other narcissist traits occurring.

 

[joe1776]

You said: 'People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance.' You are not framing it as 'arrogant people are more likely to be conservative', but 'conservatives are likely to be arrogant'.

That's correct and you have been trying to find exceptions to my general statement.

It's not an 'exception' to point out that the average person is likely to be average. I think there is little difference between the average conservative and average progressive.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that an "average person" can't be high or low in arrogance? That he/she is average in all traits?

I've met countless insufferably arrogant progressives, just as I've met countless insufferably arrogant conservatives.

And you offer your unsupported claim as a counter-argument?

For discussion's sake, let's assume conservatives, on average, are a little bit more arrogant. This would be a completely meaningless predictor on the individual level.

Irrelevant since I didn't claim that I've invented a predictor on the individual level.

You are making generic judgements about millions of people, not people you know well. Judgements that are clouded by your own personal biases. How do you know your logic is not simply a cognitive bias based on your own arrogance and/or selective perception/confirmation bias?

Your questions are legit but if you can't point out a flaw in my argument, I'll gain confidence that I'm right.

Do you accept that we are more likely to judge people as arrogant when we disagree with them on emotionally important issues?

Yes, of course. What does that have to do with the argument in the OP?

Trump is hardly representative of the average conservative though. He's even extreme for a politician.

You missed the point which was that we can't read intelligence but arrogance is obvious in the man.

 

[joe1776]

But the two are not synonymous - as in, a narcissist is usually arrogant, but someone can be arrogant without being a narcissist. For example, narcissism might affect much of a person's life, whilst arrogance might only affect certain attitudes in some without all the other narcissist traits occurring.

Remember that, like all traits, arrogance occurs in a range from low to high. "Narcissism" is jargon which equals "high arrogance." It describes people trying to satisfy the strong need to feel superior to others.

Here's a list of symptoms for NPD. You won't find any on the list which can't be credibly explained just as well as "extreme arrogance."

Narcissistic personality disorder - Symptoms and causes

 

[Revoltingest]

You said: 'People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance.' You are not framing it as 'arrogant people are more likely to be conservative', but 'conservatives are likely to be arrogant'.

It's not an 'exception' to point out that the average person is likely to be average. I think there is little difference between the average conservative and average progressive.



It's not an 'exception', it is a wholesale rejection.

I've met countless insufferably arrogant progressives, just as I've met countless insufferably arrogant conservatives.

For discussion's sake, let's assume conservatives, on average, are a little bit more arrogant. This would be a completely meaningless predictor on the individual level.

It's like having a coin that is 51% biased to heads against 49% tails. This has almost no predictive value for the outcome of any given toss, even though the average favours heads.

An assumption about an abstract group that doesn't have any meaningful predictive value about any given individual in that group is just prejudice. It's the kind of nonsense that racialists use to present their group as 'superior', and thus themselves as superior.



You are making generic judgements about millions of people, not people you know well. Judgements that are clouded by your own personal biases. How do you know your logic is not simply a cognitive bias based on your own arrogance and/or selective perception/confirmation bias?

Do you accept that we are more likely to judge people as arrogant when we disagree with them on emotionally important issues?



Trump is hardly representative of the average conservative though. He's even extreme for a politician.

Which do you think would be a better predictor of arrogance:

a) Generic conservatism/progressivism
b) Person is a successful politician

My experience on RF & IRL is that liberals are far less tolerant of
different views. They tend to be more abusive, quicker to anger,
& less able to consider alternatives. Of course, this is general.
I can't predict whether someone will be civil & receptive or abusive
& closed minded based solely upon knowing their side of the aisle.

 

[Augustus]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that an "average person" can't be high or low in arrogance? That he/she is average in all traits?

No, I'm saying the person who is average in arrogance is likely to be average in arrogance. I believe most conservatives and most progressives are roughly average in arrogance (whatever that actually means).

If most progressives are less arrogant than average, and most conservatives are more arrogant than average, you'll have to present some actual evidence for this (and seeing as you can't measure arrogance, I don't see how this is possible).

And you offer your unsupported claim as a counter-argument?

You missed the point which was that we can't read intelligence but arrogance is obvious in the man.

Your whole claim is unsupported with evidence, but let's ignore that for a second.

You've just said the only way to 'measure' arrogance is personal observation, yet you are saying my personal observation is not relevant

And while it's obvious with Trump, how can you measure the average person who may be slightly above or slightly below average?

Irrelevant since I didn't claim that I've invented a predictor on the individual level.

Then what you are proposing is simply prejudice.

Your questions are legit but if you can't point out a flaw in my argument, I'll gain confidence that I'm right.

Then answer them

Unless you can explain how we can meaningfully measure arrogance across a large group of people we have never met, you haven't got an argument, just an unsupported statement of your own experience/prejudice which hold no more weight that the experience of others who may disagree with you.

Yes, of course. What does that have to do with the argument in the OP?

You admit we are all biased in judging the arrogance of others, yet rule out the possibility that your entire argument is based on your biased judgement.

What makes you so sure you are not simply falling victim to bias the arrogant belief your side is 'superior', hence you are superior?

 

[joe1776]

No, I'm saying the person who is average in arrogance is likely to be average in arrogance. I believe most conservatives and most progressives are roughly average in arrogance (whatever that actually means).

So, you disagree with the argument in the OP. I understand that. But your opinion isn't making a counter-argument.

If most progressives are less arrogant than average, and most conservatives are more arrogant than average, you'll have to present some actual evidence for this (and seeing as you can't measure arrogance, I don't see how this is possible).

I've offered a reasoned argument supporting my conclusion. Your demand for actual evidence is absurd because most theories of human behavior haven't been tested. The question is does the theory make sense or not.

You've just said the only way to 'measure' arrogance is personal observation, yet you are saying my personal observation is not relevant

I didn't say that you can't recognize arrogance. I said that your claim about the extent of arrogance you see in conservatives and progressives is a non-starter in debate.

And while it's obvious with Trump, how can you measure the average person who may be slightly above or slightly below average?

You can't. So what?

Then what you are proposing is simply prejudice.

No. Whether I am biased or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether my argument is sound or not.

You're giving me the impression that you are not able to recognize a reasoned argument when you read one.. The OP is an argument. I made a claim and supported it with reasons that you haven't challenged.

 

[sealchan]

Defining arrogance: In order to measure something we need a standard. Since there is no fair standard for measuring human worth, we are all born equal. However, we are not all born equal in abilities. Arrogant people 'stack the deck in their favor' by imagining that their abilities, those gifted to them at birth, are the standard for measuring human worth. For example, arrogant people who are gifted with high intelligence use intelligence as a standard while arrogant people who are born gifted with athletic ability use athleticism as a standard.

Intelligence, athleticism, arrogance, empathy -- most, if not all, human traits are inherited in a range from low to high. Most people will fall into the average group on most traits while being high or low on a few. Some traits (like arrogance and empathy) oppose each other. When one is high, the other will be low.

Our species is, and probably always has been, on an upward moral trend. We humans are treating each other better right now than at any time in our history. (A link at the bottom of this post will take you to my argument with evidence supporting this claim) This historic upward trend supports equality. A few examples:

• equality for slaves
• equality for women
• equality for homosexuals
• equality for the children of the poor
• equality for the insane or the handicapped
• equality for all minority groups

People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance. They oppose the upward moral trend because the concept of equality challenges their need to feel superior to others.

People who favor progressive positions welcome change because they are aligned with the upward moral trend. The thought that all other human beings are equal in human worth doesn't threaten their self-image.


Global Harmony is Inevitable

I suppose you could measure arrogance as follows:

• Arrogance is emotionality
• Emotionality reduces the ability to think and feel rationally

So if a person resorts to logically fallacies, evidences a preference for winning a point rather than listening and understanding another's response and is otherwise emotional, all in a way that strives to support their qualities or ideas as better than someone else's, then they are being arrogant.

I think this might even be measurable publicly on a forum such as this.

 

[sealchan]

Defining arrogance: In order to measure something we need a standard. Since there is no fair standard for measuring human worth, we are all born equal. However, we are not all born equal in abilities. Arrogant people 'stack the deck in their favor' by imagining that their abilities, those gifted to them at birth, are the standard for measuring human worth. For example, arrogant people who are gifted with high intelligence use intelligence as a standard while arrogant people who are born gifted with athletic ability use athleticism as a standard.

Intelligence, athleticism, arrogance, empathy -- most, if not all, human traits are inherited in a range from low to high. Most people will fall into the average group on most traits while being high or low on a few. Some traits (like arrogance and empathy) oppose each other. When one is high, the other will be low.

Our species is, and probably always has been, on an upward moral trend. We humans are treating each other better right now than at any time in our history. (A link at the bottom of this post will take you to my argument with evidence supporting this claim) This historic upward trend supports equality. A few examples:

• equality for slaves
• equality for women
• equality for homosexuals
• equality for the children of the poor
• equality for the insane or the handicapped
• equality for all minority groups

People who favor conservative positions are likely to be higher than average in arrogance. They oppose the upward moral trend because the concept of equality challenges their need to feel superior to others.

People who favor progressive positions welcome change because they are aligned with the upward moral trend. The thought that all other human beings are equal in human worth doesn't threaten their self-image.


Global Harmony is Inevitable

I have made the case based on polling that today's Trump conservative is a xenophobe and this somewhat supports your thesis:

A Measure of Xenophobia

At its most abstract...it may be a phenomenon based on two factors:

• The rate of change in social standards is greater than at any time in the past
• The loss of power of a dominant group within a society is happening under more or less peaceful, non-revolutionary conditions

So the formerly most entitled identity is loosing that entitlement and there is a self-chosen community of people who now identify as that "disenfranchised" identity.

It is a simple matter to realize that we are all a part of the human identity and that we can acknowledge accusations hurtled at us by...

• Acknowledging those accusations
• Empathizing with the feelings involved
• Stating that one has fundamentally similar goals as far as showing and receiving respect
• Discussing how to make the situation better collaboratively

Trump is the sort of worst nightmare example of unfeeling, name-calling (definitely a sign of arrogance), self-entitled bully and it is deeply unfortunate for those who are not like that that he has hijacked the heart of the conservative movement with the aid of the conservative media. But the conservatives have largely to blame themselves for this.

Whether the liberals will have their similar moment or not remains to be seen. But after this current nationally embarrassing moment I suspect that liberals are well cautioned not to let their own biases get too out of hand.