Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

[Trailblazer]

No one has ever experienced God's justice.

Just because nobody has experienced God’s justice that does not mean it does not exist.

Nobody has died and come back to tell about it, and you would not want to now anyway. That is one reason Baha’u’llah did not reveal more about the afterlife.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings, p. 345

Every belief system is a straw man. Every belief system is built on a set of assumptions. It's just that some people think their assumptions are better than others.

I agree, but you are no different from any other believer. You have your own set of assumptions and you ‘believe’ it is correct and you believe that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Other than your opinion you have no proof God doles out anything. You are just assuming your messengers are speaking for God.

Other than your opinion you have no proof God does not dole out anything. You are just assuming the messengers are not speaking for God.

I see the World as being awesome! Life is great! People are awesome!

Sure, there are problems. The pandemic is a big problem. But I see heroism all around. I am touched, moved, and inspired by people sacrificing for others. I do not need some goofy scripture written by some goat herder 2000 years ago to know what is important in life.

I see the same things and I do not need any scripture to see them.

Haha! I am not the one who is delusional here. Nature is not evil. Nature is indifferent. A virus is just a virus. It means nothing. People attribute meaning to every experience they have. If you think covad-19 is punishing everyone because people are evil or people are no believing the right way you are delusional. Attributing evil meaning to our experiences is superstitious non-sense.

I absolutely do not believe that Covid-19 is punishing everyone because people are evil or people do not believe the right way. I believe it is a fact of nature but your all-loving God made nature, so maybe you can do the math.

You worship false idols.

Only is God does not exist.

If I hold an apple in my hand and we both look at the same time and I say "apple" there is no denying the existence of apples. Yes, you are absolutely right. My ideas of God are completely imaginary. For me, God is just a word. Since God is just a word it has meaning that only exists within my mind. This is what I mean when I say absolute authority comes from within. I have a different set of ideas than you about the nature of God. The difference between you and me is you are delusional in thinking your version of God exists like "apple" because your messengers are telling you what and how to think about God.

I am starting to understand where you are coming from. So here is the difference between me and you. God is not just a word to me; God is a reality, because I know that God exists.

You are correct that I would be delusional in thinking my version of God exists if God does not exist as the Messengers depicted God.

However, you are not correct in saying that the Messengers are telling me what and how to think about God. What really happened is that Baha’u’llah revealed what He did about God in His Writings and I chose to believe it was true, but only after I came to believe that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God.

And now I have a question for you: Why would you believe in a God you have no evidence for?

You are follower not a leader. It's okay. There are many ways of being. I purposely choose the content of my belief system. You are taking the content of what you believe from someone else. You are just fine the way you are!

I could never have a belief system I made up myself because that is illogical. It makes no sense to think that you are going to know what the real God is like with no way to know that, and it makes no sense to believe in a God you have created in your own imagination because that precludes you ever knowing what the real God is like. So if there is a real God that is different from what you imagine, you will never know because you refuse to look at any depiction of God other than the one you imagine exists. If you cannot see how that is logically problematic I cannot help you.

The good news is when you die you will go into the light and experience God's infinite beauty like everyone else regardless of your devotion to your messenger idols.

You have no evidence to support that belief, so it is just something you want to believe.

Whatever fills your needs. If you want to pretend God will do your bidding doling out justice then whatever floats your boat.

Whatever fills your needs. If you want to pretend God will do your bidding by not doling out justice then whatever floats your boat.

Is there any other kind? You tell me where I can walk up and shake hands with your God in reality.

You can bet your life that there is another kind of God, a God that really exists but remains unknowable.

You are so delusion if you can't see you are doing the exact same thing I am doing. So let me get this straight. You think your way of thinking is absolute truth because your messengers told you how to think. And you think everything I think is imaginary because I am not one of your idols.

Nobody tells me how to think. I choose to think the way I do and thus I choose to believe the way I do. Haven’t you ever heard of free will?

I think what you believe is imaginary because you made it up in your own mind and you even admitted that. I think what I believe is real because it came from a Messenger of God who had a direct line to God.

You like punishing. And you probably like being punished too. The way I see it is sometimes the only way people can figure out right from wrong is by learning it on their own.

I do not like punishing or being punished but I accept punishment if I do something wrong. Do criminals figure out by learning it on their own? You live in a complete fantasy if you believe nobody should ever be punished for wrongdoing. The entire structure of the world is based upon rewards and punishments and that is how order is maintained in the world.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219

Your version of god is a god of hate. My version of God does not dole out justice. The problem with justice is it is based on evil. What is evil and what is not evil is purely subjective.

Evil is not subjective to God because God knows who is evil, since God knows everything, and God will dole out justice accordingly. Justice is not hate.

What is evil and what is not evil is not so simple and absolute.

It is simple to God because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise as well as Infallible.

You claim the messengers are telling you what is evil and who is worth hating or judging.

No, I never made such a claim. ONLY God knows who is evil and ONLY God can judge but God does not hate anyone. Judging is not hating.

Since God is omnipotent and has no needs or desires I doubt very much God cares how we treat each other either now or in the afterlife.

God cares for our sakes, not for His sake, since God has no needs or desires. The way God demonstrates His caring is by sending Messengers who tell us how to treat each other.

I have not seen God ever strike someone down with a lightening bolt because they robbed someone or committed a felony. The only justice I have ever seen in my life comes from a secular court of law.

God does not intervene in the material world to prevent free will actions.

I think God loves every aspect of His creation equally no matter what. My God of love saves everyone no matter what. This is because my God is strong enough not to be offended or bothered by people's behaviors which are a result of people having needs and desires because each of us is created with imperfections. God knows we have have imperfections. Everyone is allowed to go into the light after we die. There just is no other choice than to go into the light an experience God.

It is not justice for everyone to experience the same afterlife no matter how they lived this life because it gives nobody any inventive to lead a better life, moreover it is not justice.

You do not know that there just is no other choice than to go into the light an experience God. You just want it to be that way so you believe it is that way.

Your quibble of about my God of love not being "just" is just your petty desires of revenge and hate for people who do not behave the way you like. My God of love has no desire for justice because my God of love has no needs. This is what perfect, whole, and complete means. .

You continue to misrepresent my position in order to try to strengthen your position. The God I believe in does not desire revenge and He does not hate anyone. The God I believe in has no needs, but humans have needs and God fulfills those needs.

I totally agree. You implying I don't think punishment is warranted by making this statement is a straw man argument. Yes, people should be punished and that is often the result in a secular court of law. If you want justice the only place you will get it is from a secular court of law.

Justice is not always accomplished in a court of law. Sometimes murderers are never caught and sometimes they are found innocent and go free. When that happens, they will have to pay for their crime after they die. Whether it is something God doles out or simply the realization of what they have done and suffering as a result, it all amounts to the same thing. They are not going to get off scot-free.

Claiming God is going to do your hard work of attaining justice for you is a pleasant thought but it is delusional. God has no need to believe the way you want Him to believe.

Nothing is too hard for an omnipotent God.

God has no need to be the way you want Him to be.

 

[Trailblazer]

God has no need to send any messengers. God has everything God needs.

God has no needs, but humans have needs and that is why God sends Messengers, for humans who have needs.

I have no wants. All I have is my choice. I choose to believe in a omnipotent God of unconditional love because I believe there is no other god worth my devotion.

You believe on a God you made up because you choose to believe in a God that suits your fancy, even if such a God does not exist. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard on RF.

You claim to know the true nature of God. But you do not know God's true nature and either do I. You choose to believe what someone else, the messengers, are tell you what is the true nature of God.

I never claimed to know God’s nature, nobody knows that, not even the Messengers. All I ever claimed to know is God’s Will for humans.

You claim your god is a god of justice. I choose not to believe in lesser gods who have human values and human needs. My God just exists. My God's being is beyond human comprehension. For me, God just exists.

Justice is a human value and a human need and that is why God cares about it, since God cares about human needs.

God's being is beyond human comprehension but God’s Will isn’t.

You are the one who is living a foolish life pretending your messengers are speaking for God. My truth is just as good as your truth.

So all the Christians and Muslims in the world are pretending Jesus and Moses spoke for God and you know as much as they do.

Yes, I do close my mind to your delusions of projecting an anthropomorphic type God having your human values of justice.

God value justice because humans need justice.

Am I foolish, you have know way of knowing because you haven't died and then come back to tell us how not to be foolish. You are just as foolish if you think the way you believe is absolute truth.

I never said it is absolute truth. Only God has absolute truth. All other truth is relative truth.

I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who allows everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternally Heavenly bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practice or not practiced our religion. An omnipotent God has no need or desire not to save every soul.

An omnipotent God has no need or desire to save every soul, only those who deserve to be saved..

If you want to choose to worship a god of hate who makes choices about how people behave it is up to you.

God does not make choices about how people behave, people make their own choices about how to behave and the they reap the consequences.

I choose differently because I think everyone is sacred and divine.

So a mass murderer who killed dozens of people is just as good as anyone else.

Yes, people make bad choices. But if God wanted to really test people's morality he would have given us all omnipotent powers so we can define the list of choices we get to choose from.

God gave us all free will so we can choose between good and evil. That is why we are responsible for our choices.

But he did not. So who are you to judge God for allowing evil to exist by having a creation with so many imperfections? I choose not to judge any part of God's creation as being anything more than just what it is. I choose not to judge God.

God allows evil to exist because God does not interfere with free will choices people make.

I do not judge God.

You are so easily manipulated! No agenda here: "Clinical social worker Kimberly Clark Sharp observed, “All the people I know who have had negative experiences have become Bible-based Christians"

No, no agenda here because the article was not promoting Christianity. It sure helps to read the article in context:

“A classic response to profound spiritual experience is conversion, not necessarily changing one’s religion but in the original sense of the Latin convertere meaning “to turn around.” The terrifying NDE is interpreted as a warning about unwise or wrong behaviors, and to turn one’s life around: “I was being shown that I had to shape up or ship out, one or the other. In other words, ‘get your act together,’ and I did just that.”4, p. 46

Movement toward a dogmatic religious community is common in this group. Clinical social worker Kimberly Clark Sharp observed, “All the people I know who have had negative experiences have become Bible-based Christians…. They might express it in various sects. But they all feel that they have come back from an awful situation and have a second chance.”5, p. 85

How Common Are Distressing NDEs?

The estimated incidence of distressing NDEs (dNDEs) has ranged from 1% to 15% of all NDEs (Bonenfant, 2001). The results of prospective studies in which the researchers interviewed everyone who experienced cardiac arrest in one or more hospitals during a period of at least several months are noteworthy. In the four prospective studies conducted between 1984 and 2001 1, 2, 3, 4 involving a total of 130 NDErs, none reported distressing experiences. This finding seems to confirm that the experience is relatively rare.

However, dNDEs may occur more frequently than they are reported. One possible reason for underreporting might be repression, in which traumatic experiences are relegated to the unconscious mind. However, a cardiologist who has been present at numerous resuscitations and has been open to hearing about dNDEs, disagreed that repression could be occurring: "These experiences are so profound...that repression is hardly an option" (Rommer, 2000, p. 25).

Other possible reasons that the dNDE may be underreported are that dNDErs avoid talking about the experience, perhaps because they:

• Hope the distressing experience will just go away,
• Want to avoid re-experiencing the distress that occurs when they talk about the experience,
• Feel ashamed for having had a distressing experience when so many other people have reported pleasurable experiences, and/or
• Are afraid that others will judge them as bad or crazy.

Although distressing NDEs appear to occur much less often than pleasurable NDEs, exactly how frequently the distressing types occur is not yet known. Hopefully, future research will produce a clearer answer to this question.

Distressing Near-Death Experiences

Nobody knows what happens after we die. This is why we have faith. People choose what they believe. I just choose differently than you do. I have no desire to see anyone suffer regardless of any bad decisions or behaviors as a result of someone's God given imperfections. I choose to only see the good in people. I choose to see everyone as being sacred and divine regardless of any results because of God given imperfections. I choose NOT to hold up a ruler of perfection to measure other people's imperfections so I can judge them. This is because I do not have hate in my heart. I am forgiving of other people because I know they are doing the best they can with their God given imperfections as I am doing.

God given imperfections? Now it is God’s fault that people are evil. So I suppose that you do not believe anyone deserves to be punished because it is God’s fault they sin? I never heard anything more ridiculous in my entire life.

God created everyone good. Then some people chose to commit evil acts because they had free will so they had a choice. They could have chosen good but instead they chose evil so they are culpable.

 

[dfnj]

Just because nobody has experienced God’s justice that does not mean it does not exist.

It only exists because you say it exists.

Nobody has died and come back to tell about it, and you would not want to now anyway. That is one reason Baha’u’llah did not reveal more about the afterlife.

Baha revealed nothing. You just say she did.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings, p. 345

Meaningless gibberish.

I agree, but you are no different from any other believer. You have your own set of assumptions and you ‘believe’ it is correct and you believe that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

I never said otherwise. But I am absolute against any form of evangelicalism. People cannot let other people learn calculus for them. Same with religion. if you do you are just a fan. Fandom is not the real thing as being on the field of play.

Other than your opinion you have no proof God does not dole out anything. You are just assuming the messengers are not speaking for God.

Yes, I agree.

I see the same things and I do not need any scripture to see them.

Scripture is just someone else's opinion. People idolize scripture.

I absolutely do not believe that Covid-19 is punishing everyone because people are evil or people do not believe the right way. I believe it is a fact of nature but your all-loving God made nature, so maybe you can do the math.

Parents of serial killers do not receive capital punishment because of what their child has done.

Only is God does not exist.

God absolutely exists. God is just a word. Nobody denies the existence of the word God.

I am starting to understand where you are coming from. So here is the difference between me and you. God is not just a word to me; God is a reality, because I know that God exists.

If I hold and apple in my hand and we both look at and I say, "apple" nobody denies the existence of the word apple. Belief in God only exists in thought-space and is purely subjective and an act of faith. If you are claiming otherwise you are delusional.

You are correct that I would be delusional in thinking my version of God exists if God does not exist as the Messengers depicted God.

The messengers are just making it up no different than I am.

However, you are not correct in saying that the Messengers are telling me what and how to think about God. What really happened is that Baha’u’llah revealed what He did about God in His Writings and I chose to believe it was true, but only after I came to believe that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God.

As I said, you are being told what to think. You are knee bending follower with very little absolute authority from within. You are letting others walk the path of your own salvation for you. You are fan. You are not someone on the field of play getting a bloody nose.

And now I have a question for you: Why would you believe in a God you have no evidence for?

I have faith in my version of God precisely because there is no evidence for your version of God. Your evidence the messengers told you so is very weak and unconvincing.

I could never have a belief system I made up myself because that is illogical.

Nonsense. You choose to idolize your messengers and what they say as absolute truth. You made this up.

It makes no sense to think that you are going to know what the real God is like with no way to know that, and it makes no sense to believe in a God you have created in your own imagination because that precludes you ever knowing what the real God is like. So if there is a real God that is different from what you imagine, you will never know because you refuse to look at any depiction of God other than the one you imagine exists. If you cannot see how that is logically problematic I cannot help you.

Every act of faith is based on intuition derived from experience and reason.

Any modern religious belief system has to take into account modern science and atheism. If it does not then it is just silly superstition.

We have a set of disparate data points. What makes a conspiracy theory great is when you can take the data points and connect them in a compelling and imaginative narrative.

 

[dfnj]

You have no evidence to support that belief, so it is just something you want to believe.

Absolutely not true. Here is piece of evidence we live in a cyclical Universe:

https://phys.org/news/2015-10-white-holes.html

Our Big Bang was not the beginning of time. Our Big Bang was the result of a star collapsing to a black hole in a previously existing space-time dimension.

And then there's the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

You can't just hold the narrow minded view of goat herder religions in such high esteem and completely ignore modern physics.

Whatever fills your needs. If you want to pretend God will do your bidding by not doling out justice then whatever floats your boat.

I agree.

You can bet your life that there is another kind of God, a God that really exists but remains unknowable.

Yes, my faith is stronger than yours because I am willing to make this bet. I am willing to put all my trust and hope in my all-loving God.

Nobody tells me how to think. I choose to think the way I do and thus I choose to believe the way I do. Haven’t you ever heard of free will?

Yes, you have chosen to let your messengers think for you. I cannot disagree with your stubbornness not to do the hard work yourself.

I think what you believe is imaginary because you made it up in your own mind and you even admitted that. I think what I believe is real because it came from a Messenger of God who had a direct line to God.

You just made this imaginary thought: "I think what I believe is real because it came from a Messenger"

You are no different than me. Yes, my religion is made up. Like all belief systems I have a set of assumptions I hold true without any proof. And like all belief systems people who do not share or agree with my assumptions I think are insane. Yes, I believe my own personal dogma is the only right one to have.

I think you do not understand the purpose of religion. As I've said, religion exists to give concrete answers to the four unanswerable existential questions of our lives:

1. Who am I?
2. Why am I here?
3. What does it all mean?
4. What is going to happen to me when I die?

My religion answers these questions just as much as yours does. There is no objective way to know which belief system is the "right" one. Choosing a religion is purely a subjective judgment based on opinion. I have never said my way of thinking is an absolute truth. I think you have said yours is several times.

I do not like punishing or being punished but I accept punishment if I do something wrong. Do criminals figure out by learning it on their own? You live in a complete fantasy if you believe nobody should ever be punished for wrongdoing. The entire structure of the world is based upon rewards and punishments and that is how order is maintained in the world.

We have secular laws. People understand and believe in the golden rule without ever reading any religion. Children know very early how not to hurt themselves. Children know very early not to punch someone or you will get punched back. People generally know how to avoid pain.

We have plenty of order in the World. We have 7.5 billion people on the planet. Someone is doing something right otherwise woman would not have babies.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219

Gibberish nonsense.

Evil is not subjective to God because God knows who is evil, since God knows everything, and God will dole out justice accordingly. Justice is not hate.

The idea God will dole out justice is pure delusional fantasy. You have absolutely no evidence. An omnipotent God has absolutely no reason to care about justice. And omnipotent God has everything He needs.

Your idea of justice is hate. You are holding people up to a ruler of perfection measuring each person's imperfections. Why are you surprised people do not meet your expectations. The problem is not with the people you dub as being evil requiring your hateful idea of justice. The problem is you take pleasure in the idea of people you dub as being evil receiving what they "deserve" according to your subjective judgment. You are just assuming God's subjective judgment will be the same one as yours even though you do not have a shred of evidence support your belief. It is an assumption on your part. Nothing more. I choose to have a different assumption about God.

It is simple to God because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise as well as Infallible.

You seem to be operating under the delusion God has anthropomorphic qualities. It is neither simple nor complex to God because God just exists as being perfect, whole, and complete. What God is thinking beyond our comprehension. You say things about God I would never say. I would never doubt God by attributing any anthropomorphic quality to God which would be implying God has limitations. My faith in God is too strong to allow me to do it.

No, I never made such a claim. ONLY God knows who is evil and ONLY God can judge but God does not hate anyone. Judging is not hating.

Your judging of other people requiring justices is hate. Nobody knows what God knows.

Since God is omnipotent and has no needs or desires I doubt very much God cares how we treat each other either now or in the afterlife.

Yes, I agree. God does not care. If we crap in our own beds it is up to us to clean it up. If you want justice you have to get it from a secular court of law.

God just exists. God does not have human qualities. To suggest God has human qualities implies God has limitations. God has no limitations.

God cares for our sakes, not for His sake, since God has no needs or desires. The way God demonstrates His caring is by sending Messengers who tell us how to treat each other.

If you say so whatever floats your boat.

God does not intervene in the material world to prevent free will actions.

Yes, I agree. There is no amount of evil God will not tolerate as history has proven.

It is not justice for everyone to experience the same afterlife no matter how they lived this life because it gives nobody any inventive to lead a better life, moreover it is not justice.

So what. There is no justice in the afterlife. So what.

You do not know that there just is no other choice than to go into the light an experience God. You just want it to be that way so you believe it is that way.

I see no reason not to believe it is the way I have chosen to believe. My way of thinking is just as good as yours. The way I believe is a chosen act of faith.

You continue to misrepresent my position in order to try to strengthen your position. The God I believe in does not desire revenge and He does not hate anyone. The God I believe in has no needs, but humans have needs and God fulfills those needs.

You have no position. You just believe what the messengers tell you to believe. Your only position is "believe what the messengers are you telling me."

Justice is not always accomplished in a court of law. Sometimes murderers are never caught and sometimes they are found innocent and go free. When that happens, they will have to pay for their crime after they die. Whether it is something God doles out or simply the realization of what they have done and suffering as a result, it all amounts to the same thing. They are not going to get off scot-free.

Again, you are taking pleasure in the idea evil doers will eventually face justice. It's is a lovely thought. But it is purely delusional and makes no sense if you accept the omnipotent nature of God.

Nothing is too hard for an omnipotent God.

Again you are choosing to believe in a lesser god by attributing a human quality of "hard" and "not hard" to God. God does not have any human qualities.

God has no need to be the way you want Him to be.

I agree.

 

[Trailblazer]

It only exists because you say it exists.

No, it exists because scripture says it exists.

Baha revealed nothing. You just say she did.

He revealed many things: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

But whether one believes they came from God or not is another matter.

Scripture is just someone else's opinion. People idolize scripture.

I do not idolize scripture. I just believe it comes from God. I believe that the Bible was divinely inspired but since it was written by men it has many problems. By comparison, the Qur’an is more authentic since it was dictated by Muhammad to scribes who wrote it down but the Writings of Baha’u’llah are wholly authentic because He wrote them in His Own Pen.

Parents of serial killers do not receive capital punishment because of what their child has done.

I agree, if you are talking about humans, but that analogy does not fly because God is not a human being. God is responsible for creating this world and everything in it. Humans are responsible for the choices that they make because God gave humans free will.

God absolutely exists. God is just a word. Nobody denies the existence of the word God.

If God is just a word and God does not exist in reality, then it would be really foolish to worship God.

If I hold and apple in my hand and we both look at and I say, "apple" nobody denies the existence of the word apple. Belief in God only exists in thought-space and is purely subjective and an act of faith. If you are claiming otherwise you are delusional.

You are correct, belief in God only exists in thought-space and is purely subjective and an act of faith. However, that does not mean that God only exists in the mind. God exists in reality but where and how God exists we cannot know. That is the mystery of mysteries.

The messengers are just making it up no different than I am.

You are free to believe that because you have free will. Obviously I do not share those beliefs.

As I said, you are being told what to think.

Unless you can find any Baha’i Writings that order us to believe what Baha’u’llah wrote, you are up the creek without a paddle.

You are knee bending follower with very little absolute authority from within. You are letting others walk the path of your own salvation for you. You are fan. You are not someone on the field of play getting a bloody nose.

I have no authority from within because I am not God and I am not a Messenger of God.

Trailblazer said: And now I have a question for you: Why would you believe in a God you have no evidence for?

I have faith in my version of God precisely because there is no evidence for your version of God. Your evidence the messengers told you so is very weak and unconvincing.

There is evidence for my version of God, but there is no evidence for your version of God. The evidence for my version is not that the messengers told me so. That would not be a reason to believe at all. The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is everything that surrounds His Life and Revelation, including His early life; His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

Nonsense. You choose to idolize your messengers and what they say as absolute truth. You made this up.

I do not idolize any Messengers. I choose to believe in Baha’u’llah because of all the evidence I sited above.

Every act of faith is based on intuition derived from experience and reason.

That is true, but my faith is also based upon evidence, as noted above. It is based upon my reason applied to the evidence.

Any modern religious belief system has to take into account modern science and atheism. If it does not then it is just silly superstition.

I fully agree. The need for science as well as religion is an important Baha’i principle.

FOURTH PRINCIPLE—THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATION BETWEEN RELIGION AND SCIENCE

The harmony between science and religion is an important Baha’i principle.

Harmony between science and religion

ʻAbdu'l-Bahá explained that religious teachings which are at variance with science should not be accepted; he explained that religion has to be reasonable since God endowed humankind with reason so that they can discover truth.

Baháʼí Faith and science - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Absolutely not true. Here is piece of evidence we live in a cyclical Universe:

https://phys.org/news/2015-10-white-holes.html

Our Big Bang was not the beginning of time. Our Big Bang was the result of a star collapsing to a black hole in a previously existing space-time dimension.

And then there's the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

You can't just hold the narrow minded view of goat herder religions in such high esteem and completely ignore modern physics.

How does that prove we live in a cyclical universe?

You say this is modern physics. What does that mean? Do you really think that all physicists agree on these matters? I just ran this across a physicist who has a PhD in physics and teaches at a university. He is an atheist and a forum owner on a religious forum I post on. He said “A cyclical universe is a possibility, but there is precious little evidence in its favor and some significant evidence against it.”

dfnj said: The good news is when you die you will go into the light and experience God's infinite beauty like everyone else regardless of your devotion to your messenger idols.

Even if we live in a cyclical universe, how does that prove what you said above about going into the light and experiencing God's infinite beauty?

Yes, my faith is stronger than yours because I am willing to make this bet. I am willing to put all my trust and hope in my all-loving God.

Why do you think that makes your faith stronger than my faith? I put all my trust and hope in an all-loving God who is also just.

Yes, you have chosen to let your messengers think for you. I cannot disagree with your stubbornness not to do the hard work yourself.

They do not think for me, I do my own thinking but some of my thinking is based upon the teachings of Baha’u’llah. What is hard about making stuff up and then believing it? That is what you do.

You just made this imaginary thought: "I think what I believe is real because it came from a Messenger"

Allow me to rephrase that: Imo, what I believe is real because it came from a real Messenger of a real God.

You are no different than me. Yes, my religion is made up. Like all belief systems I have a set of assumptions I hold true without any proof. And like all belief systems people who do not share or agree with my assumptions I think are insane. Yes, I believe my own personal dogma is the only right one to have.

I am different from you because (1) I do not believe that people who do not share or agree with my assumptions are insane, and (2) I do not believe that my own personal dogma is the “only right” one to have.

I think you do not understand the purpose of religion. As I've said, religion exists to give concrete answers to the four unanswerable existential questions of our lives:

1. Who am I?
2. Why am I here?
3. What does it all mean?
4. What is going to happen to me when I die?

My religion answers these questions just as much as yours does. There is no objective way to know which belief system is the "right" one. Choosing a religion is purely a subjective judgment based on opinion. I have never said my way of thinking is an absolute truth. I think you have said yours is several times.

You made up the answers to these profound questions without a way to know the answers. You can do that if you want to but please do not all it a religion. Religion comes from God. What you believe comes from yourself.

I never said that my belief is the absolute truth. I said that God’s truth is relative and only God has absolute truth. By contrast you said you believe your own personal dogma is the only right one to have which means you cannot even imagined you could be wrong.

We have secular laws. People understand and believe in the golden rule without ever reading any religion.

The Golden Rule originated in religion and that is why people follow it. Nobody was born with that knowledge. Whether they are an atheist or a believer with no religion, by living in society they were influenced by religion and that is why they follow the Golden Rule.

Children know very early how not to hurt themselves. Children know very early not to punch someone or you will get punched back. People generally know how to avoid pain.

No child was born with that knowledge. They had to learn it somewhere, from parents and teachers.

We have plenty of order in the World. We have 7.5 billion people on the planet. Someone is doing something right otherwise woman would not have babies.

Women have babies because they have sex. What does this have to do with order in the world?

The idea God will dole out justice is pure delusional fantasy. You have absolutely no evidence.

The idea God will not dole out justice is pure delusional fantasy. You have absolutely no evidence.

Your idea of justice is hate.

My idea of justice is not hate.

What is the true meaning of justice?

the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause. ... the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
Justice | Definition of Justice at Dictionary.com

What hate really means?

hate, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe mean to feel strong aversion or intense dislike for. hate implies an emotional aversion often coupled with enmity or malice. hated the enemy with a passion detest suggests violent antipathy.
Hate | Definition of Hate by Merriam-Webster

You are holding people up to a ruler of perfection measuring each person's imperfections. Why are you surprised people do not meet your expectations.

I am not doing that because that is God’s job. Only God can judge.

The problem is not with the people you dub as being evil requiring your hateful idea of justice. The problem is you take pleasure in the idea of people you dub as being evil receiving what they "deserve" according to your subjective judgment.

This has nothing to do with me, nothing. Only God can judge and He will judge according to His mercy and His justice.

You are just assuming God's subjective judgment will be the same one as yours even though you do not have a shred of evidence support your belief. It is an assumption on your part. Nothing more. I choose to have a different assumption about God.

I do not assume anything about God’s judgment and what it will be. I certainly do not assume it will be the same as mine. For if I had my way there would be no mercy for certain evil people. I am fairly certain that God is a lot more loving than I would be, although I could be wrong.

You seem to be operating under the delusion God has anthropomorphic qualities.

All-Knowing and All-Wise and Infallible are not anthropomorphic qualities.

It is neither simple nor complex to God because God just exists as being perfect, whole, and complete.

That is simply your belief, and it is not based upon anything except what you want to believe. I agree that God is perfect, whole, and complete, but that belief is based upon scripture, I did not just pull it out of my hat.

What God is thinking beyond our comprehension. You say things about God I would never say. I would never doubt God by attributing any anthropomorphic quality to God which would be implying God has limitations. My faith in God is too strong to allow me to do it.

I agree that what God is thinking is beyond our comprehension. You say things about God I would never say such as how we will all look into the face of God as if God has a face. If that is not anthropomorphic I do not know what is.

I never implied that God has any limitations. That means that God is not limited by your conception of Him as being all-loving.

Your judging of other people requiring justices is hate. Nobody knows what God knows.

It is not hate by any definition of the word hate. You define it as hate because you hate the idea that God might dare to judge anyone, as if you are the one who determines what God has a right to do.

But you are correct in saying that nobody knows what God knows.

God just exists. God does not have human qualities. To suggest God has human qualities implies God has limitations. God has no limitations.

I never said or even implied that God has human qualities.

Yes, I agree. There is no amount of evil God will not tolerate as history has proven.

True, but that does not mean that evil will not be punishable by God after death. That is the only way justice can be served if it is not served in a secular court of law. By the way, in Baha’u’llah’s Book of Laws He states that if a murderer receives the death penalty ,God will not impose a second penalty upon Him. If I were God I would not be that merciful.

So what. There is no justice in the afterlife. So what.

And you know that how?

I see no reason not to believe it is the way I have chosen to believe. My way of thinking is just as good as yours. The way I believe is a chosen act of faith.

I see no reason not to believe it is the way you have chosen to believe because it is not based upon any evidence. The way you believe is an act of faith, with no supporting evidence. I consider that pie in the sky.

You have no position. You just believe what the messengers tell you to believe. Your only position is "believe what the messengers are you telling me."

What I believe is based upon scripture. Nobody “tells” me to believe that, I choose to believe it.

Again, you are taking pleasure in the idea evil doers will eventually face justice. It's is a lovely thought. But it is purely delusional and makes no sense if you accept the omnipotent nature of God.

Even if I do take pleasure in the idea that evil doers will face justice that is completely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is what God actually does, not my feelings.

It makes perfect sense if one accepts the omnipotent nature of God according to scripture rather than a made up version of omnipotence.

Again you are choosing to believe in a lesser god by attributing a human quality of "hard" and "not hard" to God. God does not have any human qualities.

Nothing is too difficult for a God who is All-Powerful. That is logic 101.

I agree.

Then why are you making God in your own image?

 

[dfnj]

God has no needs, but humans have needs and that is why God sends Messengers, for humans who have needs.

Your messengers are just pretending to speak for God.

You believe on a God you made up because you choose to believe in a God that suits your fancy, even if such a God does not exist. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard on RF.

Your lack of faith in God's unconditional love is mine.

I never claimed to know God’s nature, nobody knows that, not even the Messengers. All I ever claimed to know is God’s Will for humans.

You claim the messengers speak for God. You cannot be more delusional.

Justice is a human value and a human need and that is why God cares about it, since God cares about human needs.

If you say God acts like human being then whatever floats your boat.

God's being is beyond human comprehension but God’s Will isn’t.

You don't know what God is thinking. The messengers you idolize do not know either. You are just choosing to believe they do. It's no different than what I am doing. I just have different choices than you do.

So all the Christians and Muslims in the world are pretending Jesus and Moses spoke for God and you know as much as they do.

I don't idolize the words of the Bible like you do. People more often than not use scripture to manipulate people for the sake of power. Of course it's built on monarchy and obedience to authority because the person who is head of the church would not have any power if it were not. It's pure BS. You are just a follower. Your baha church is not trying to give you power it's trying to take it way. Your religion is not giving you anything you do not already have.

God value justice because humans need justice.

If you say God is human being whatever floats your boat. I think God's being is beyond our comprehension.

I never said it is absolute truth. Only God has absolute truth. All other truth is relative truth.

You have no idea what God has or doesn't have.

An omnipotent God has no need or desire to save every soul, only those who deserve to be saved..

Nice try but fail. You have no idea what God will do any more than I do. People say when they die they see a light. People go into the light. This is all we know.

God does not make choices about how people behave, people make their own choices about how to behave and the they reap the consequences.

Yes God does not make choices. Yes, people suffer when they cause other people to suffer before they die. After they die everyone goes into the light and consciousness stops.

So a mass murderer who killed dozens of people is just as good as anyone else.

Not just as good. But just as saved by God.

God gave us all free will so we can choose between good and evil. That is why we are responsible for our choices.

We don't have free-will. If we had omnipotent powers and were able to control the list of choices we get to choose from only then would we have free-will. Life forces us to choose evil all the time because we have no other choice.

We are only responsible for choosing our own beliefs.

God allows evil to exist because God does not interfere with free will choices people make.

God doesn't think like you and me. God's being is beyond our comprehension. You have no idea what God thinks about or allows.

I do not judge God.

You are worse because you judge people as being evil when you should be looking in the mirror.

No, no agenda here because the article was not promoting Christianity. It sure helps to read the article in context:

Well, you are wrong.

“A classic response to profound spiritual experience is conversion, not necessarily changing one’s religion but in the original sense of the Latin convertere meaning “to turn around.” The terrifying NDE is interpreted as a warning about unwise or wrong behaviors, and to turn one’s life around: “I was being shown that I had to shape up or ship out, one or the other. In other words, ‘get your act together,’ and I did just that.”4, p. 46

Movement toward a dogmatic religious community is common in this group. Clinical social worker Kimberly Clark Sharp observed, “All the people I know

[/QUOTE]

All the people I know say differently. So we are equal.

No, it exists because scripture says it exists.
He revealed many things: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

You idolize scripture. You are an idol worshiper.

God doesn't reveal anything. God has no need or desire to.

But whether one believes they came from God or not is another matter.
I do not idolize scripture. I just believe it comes from God. I believe that the Bible was divinely inspired but since it was written by men it has many problems. By comparison, the Qur’an is more authentic since it was dictated by Muhammad to scribes who wrote it down but the Writings of Baha’u’llah are wholly authentic because He wrote them in His Own Pen.

If you say so whatever floats your boat. One man's religion is another man's cult.

I agree, if you are talking about humans, but that analogy does not fly because God is not a human being. God is responsible for creating this world and everything in it. Humans are responsible for the choices that they make because God gave humans free will.

You sound like you talk to God every day. I used to have an imaginary friend when I was six. Then I grew up.

If God is just a word and God does not exist in reality, then it would be really foolish to worship God.

Yes. Religion and scripture is about obedience to authority. It has nothing to do with God. All scripture is about creating a power structure so the person in charge of the religion can pretend they are speaking for God and have people do their bidding. Or say messengers speak for God so they can sell bibles. As I've said absolute authority comes from within. If anyone tells you differently they are trying to sell you something or get you to join their cult.

You are correct, belief in God only exists in thought-space and is purely subjective and an act of faith. However, that does not mean that God only exists in the mind. God exists in reality but where and how God exists we cannot know. That is the mystery of mysteries.

Nobody speaks for God. God is indifferent to the affairs of man. Otherwise he would be bellowing from the clouds.

People pretending to speak for God are delusions. And people who claim other people are speaking for God are just as delusional.

You are free to believe that because you have free will. Obviously I do not share those beliefs.

If you see the Buddha on the road kill him.

Unless you can find any Baha’i Writings that order us to believe what Baha’u’llah wrote, you are up the creek without a paddle.

Your religion is just another dogma based on opinions.

I have no authority from within because I am not God and I am not a Messenger of God.

Sad.

There is evidence for my version of God, but there is no evidence for your version of God.

One man's religion is another man's cult. Your evidence is BS.

The evidence for my version is not that the messengers told me so. That would not be a reason to believe at all. The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is everything that surrounds His Life and Revelation, including His early life; His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

You have a very nice opinion but it is still just an opinion and not evidence.

I do not idolize any Messengers. I choose to believe in Baha’u’llah because of all the evidence I sited above.

You choose to believe in false idols. There is only one true all-power all-long God. And that God is God.

That is true, but my faith is also based upon evidence, as noted above. It is based upon my reason applied to the evidence.
he harmony between science and religion is an important Baha’i principle.
Harmony between science and religion
ʻAbdu'l-Bahá explained that religious teachings which are at variance with science should not be accepted; he explained that religion has to be reasonable since God endowed humankind with reason so that they can discover truth.

Your cult just wants you to pay dues.

Faith is a choice. Decisions are based on reasons.

Your opinions on what is subjective versus what is objective is noted. Your opinions are facts while my opinions are delusions. Got. it.

I fully agree. The need for science as well as religion is an important Baha’i principle.
FOURTH PRINCIPLE—THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATION BETWEEN RELIGION AND SCIENCE

I can see you are very proud of your schools colors.

 

[dfnj]

How does that prove we live in a cyclical universe?

Billions of stars collapse into black holes creating a new Universe allowing everything to repeat. All that matters is after an infinite number of big bangs everything that is possible will eventually happen at least once.

You say this is modern physics. What does that mean? Do you really think that all physicists agree on these matters? I just ran this across a physicist who has a PhD in physics and teaches at a university. He is an atheist and a forum owner on a religious forum I post on. He said “A cyclical universe is a possibility, but there is precious little evidence in its favor and some significant evidence against it.”

It's better than your religion from goat herders.

Why do you think that makes your faith stronger than my faith? I put all my trust and hope in an all-loving God who is also just.

I am willing to take the chance and put all my faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. You are not willing to trust your faith so you listen to your messengers for answers.

They do not think for me, I do my own thinking but some of my thinking is based upon the teachings of Baha’u’llah. What is hard about making stuff up and then believing it? That is what you do.

Yes, you made up the belief your messengers are speaking to you as if God were human like and talking with you.

Allow me to rephrase that: Imo, what I believe is real because it came from a real Messenger of a real God.

You have a find opinion about what is real.

You made up the answers to these profound questions without a way to know the answers. You can do that if you want to but please do not all it a religion. Religion comes from God. What you believe comes from yourself.

You are no different. What you choose to have faith in doesn't come from God either. It only does because you say it does.

There is nothing the messengers are giving you that you could not figure for yourself.

I never said that my belief is the absolute truth. I said that God’s truth is relative and only God has absolute truth. By contrast you said you believe your own personal dogma is the only right one to have which means you cannot even imagined you could be wrong.

I have said many times I may be wrong. You just never say. You think your messengers are absolute truth from God.

I said because I have no evidence directly from God I choose my faith.

No child was born with that knowledge. They had to learn it somewhere, from parents and teachers.

You are wrong.

Women have babies because they have sex. What does this have to do with order in the world?

Because I say it does.

My idea of justice is not hate.
What hate really means?

Yes it is.

You do not accept my idea everyone is saved by God because you love the idea of people finally getting their just deserts for their life of causing other people misery. In my opinion, this is delusional wishful thinking on your part. God saves everyone no matter what. This is what unconditional love means. No conditions. Your desire to see other people suffering because you want justice is hate. You do not have enough love to forgive people you feel need to held to be judged so there can be justice. I said my God is strong than your god because my God is strong enough to put love before justice.

I am not doing that because that is God’s job. Only God can judge.

You have no idea what God does. Your opinion is not better than mine.

This has nothing to do with me, nothing. Only God can judge and He will judge according to His mercy and His justice.

Mercy would be you giving up on selling your false religion.

All-Knowing and All-Wise and Infallible are not anthropomorphic qualities.

Judging people is an anthropomorphic quality. God is perfect and whole and absolutely no need to judge people according to your opinion based morality for the purpose of justice. God has no need for justice. Only human beings do who lack power because they are knee bending slaves to authority.

That is simply your belief, and it is not based upon anything except what you want to believe. I agree that God is perfect, whole, and complete, but that belief is based upon scripture, I did not just pull it out of my hat.

All our thoughts come out of our hat.

I agree that what God is thinking is beyond our comprehension. You say things about God I would never say such as how we will all look into the face of God as if God has a face. If that is not anthropomorphic I do not know what is.

The face of God in this context means come face to face or be in the presence of God.

I never implied that God has any limitations. That means that God is not limited by your conception of Him as being all-loving.

You do it all the time. Your idea of God doling put justices is attributing God is satisfying His presumed needs for justice.

It is not hate by any definition of the word hate. You define it as hate because you hate the idea that God might dare to judge anyone, as if you are the one who determines what God has a right to do.

I don't hate God. I just accept do not accept your idea god has the desire or need to judge anyone.

True, but that does not mean that evil will not be punishable by God after death. That is the only way justice can be served if it is not served in a secular court of law. By the way, in Baha’u’llah’s Book of Laws He states that if a murderer receives the death penalty ,God will not impose a second penalty upon Him. If I were God I would not be that merciful.

When we die we go into the light. Our thoughts stop.

And you know that how?

I choose to have faith according to my dogma. My choice in my own words is just as good of a choice as your choice in your messengers are the end-all be-all opinions about God.

I see no reason not to believe it is the way you have chosen to believe because it is not based upon any evidence. The way you believe is an act of faith, with no supporting evidence. I consider that pie in the sky.

Choices are not based on evidence. Decisions are based on evidence. A true choice is not based on reason. I make my choice because I know it is true based on my intuition coming from within.

What I believe is based upon scripture. Nobody “tells” me to believe that, I choose to believe it.

Your scripture was written by men.

Even if I do take pleasure in the idea that evil doers will face justice that is completely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is what God actually does, not my feelings.

You are only choosing the way you do because you like it. You have no evidence.

It makes perfect sense if one accepts the omnipotent nature of God according to scripture rather than a made up version of omnipotence.

One man's religion is another man's cult. It's just you do not see your religion as a cult. You think your way of thinking is absolute truth. This is because you have a huge hubris with your opinion. Where I have said all along I choose my beliefs because there's no way to know objectively what is absolute truth. Or, in your case, there is no way to know if your choice to believe your messengers are speaking for God is objectively correct. Both our choices are just as equal.

I am telling you my religion is equal to yours. This is why you are wrong. You cannot say your trust in the messengers is just as flimsy as my choice to believe in an omnipotent God of unconditional love.

Then why are you making God in your own image?

I am full of imperfections. God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. I have endless needs and desires. I have no choice over the nature of my being.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your messengers are just pretending to speak for God.

Maybe, or maybe not.

Your lack of faith in God's unconditional love is mine.

God’s love is absolute but so is God’s justice.

You claim the messengers speak for God. You cannot be more delusional.

There is nothing delusional about it. Almost everyone in the world believes that someone speaks for God, even if they don’t call them Messengers.

What is delusional is to think you can know about God without an intermediary.

If you say God acts like human being then whatever floats your boat.

God is not acting like a human being when He doles out justice. He is acting like God.

You don't know what God is thinking. The messengers you idolize do not know either. You are just choosing to believe they do. It's no different than what I am doing. I just have different choices than you do.

It is different because what I believe comes from a Messenger, who is both human and divine, but what you believe comes from you, and you are only human.

I don't idolize the words of the Bible like you do. People more often than not use scripture to manipulate people for the sake of power. Of course it's built on monarchy and obedience to authority because the person who is head of the church would not have any power if it were not. It's pure BS. You are just a follower. Your baha church is not trying to give you power it's trying to take it way. Your religion is not giving you anything you do not already have.

I do not idolize the words of the Bible. The Bible has many issues.

You can bet your bottom dollar I am a follower, a follower of Baha’u’llah. You will never be a follower because you think you know more than a Messenger of God.

My religion already gave me a lot that I did not have before since Baha’u’llah knew more than I could ever know, since God taught Him the knowledge of all that has been.

I think God's being is beyond our comprehension.

It sure is.

You have no idea what God has or doesn't have.

You have no idea what God will do to people when people die.

Nice try but fail. You have no idea what God will do any more than I do. People say when they die they see a light. People go into the light. This is all we know.

Nice try but fail. Those people were not fully dead. If they had been dead they would not have been able to come back to life. All NDEs report that there is a point in the NDE at which they can decide whether they want to die or come back.

Besides, some people go into the light, not all people. Other people have frightful NDEs, but after that they turned to religion and it changed their life. Some of those people have another NDE that is glorious.

Yes God does not make choices. Yes, people suffer when they cause other people to suffer before they die. After they die everyone goes into the light and consciousness stops.

The soul is responsible for consciousness and the soul is immortal so consciousness does not stop when we die, it continues and becomes much more pronounced than ever before because the body is no longer an impediment for the soul’s full expression. What would be the point of going into the light and not being conscious of that? Did you ever think your paradigm through?

Trailblazer said: So a mass murderer who killed dozens of people is just as good as anyone else.

Not just as good. But just as saved by God.

No, not just as saved by God, not saved at all. God does not save anyone, people have to save themselves.

We don't have free-will. If we had omnipotent powers and were able to control the list of choices we get to choose from only then would we have free-will.

Free will has nothing to do with omnipotence. Only God is omnipotent but every human has free will.

We cannot control the list of choices so we have to pick from the choices we do have.

Life forces us to choose evil all the time because we have no other choice.

I can hardly believe you just said that. What a cop-out. Life does not force anyone to choose evil, people choose evil because they are selfish.

We are only responsible for choosing our own beliefs.

That’s true.

God doesn't think like you and me. God's being is beyond our comprehension. You have no idea what God thinks about or allows.

We know God allows evil because evil exists. An omnipotent God could stop evil.

You are worse because you judge people as being evil when you should be looking in the mirror.

I do not judge anyone, but God judges them. Why not just face reality? Everyone else can see it but you, even my atheist friends.

You idolize scripture. You are an idol worshiper.

I worship only God.

God doesn't reveal anything. God has no need or desire to.

You said God is unknowable so how do you know all these things about God?

Yes. Religion and scripture is about obedience to authority. It has nothing to do with God.

Religion and scripture has everything to do with God because it is the ONLY WAY to know ANYTHING about God.

As I've said absolute authority comes from within.

Absolute authority? You must think pretty highly of yourself.

Nobody speaks for God. God is indifferent to the affairs of man. Otherwise he would be bellowing from the clouds.

God did bellow out to man through the Messengers because God cares about the affairs of man.

Sad.

What is sad is that you believe you are an absolute authority.

You choose to believe in false idols. There is only one true all-power all-long God. And that God is God.

That is true, but that God is not what you believe He is.

Your cult just wants you to pay dues.

There are no dues in the Baha’i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Billions of stars collapse into black holes creating a new Universe allowing everything to repeat. All that matters is after an infinite number of big bangs everything that is possible will eventually happen at least once.

There is no evidence to support this view, as my physicist forum owner said.

It's better than your religion from goat herders.

My religion is not a religion of goat herders as Baha’u’llah was not a goat herder, He was a Persian nobleman. You are lagging 2000 years behind.

I am willing to take the chance and put all my faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. You are not willing to trust your faith so you listen to your messengers for answers.

You mean I am not willing to trust myself and a religion I made up in my head. I consider that foolhardy. I don’t take chances because there is no need to since I have a real source of information on God-related matters.

Yes, you made up the belief your messengers are speaking to you as if God were human like and talking with you.

Nice try, but I did not make anything up, I simply believed what Baha’u’llah wrote. God is not human like and that is why God has to appoint Messengers to speak for Him.

You are no different. What you choose to have faith in doesn't come from God either. It only does because you say it does.

All true religions come from God through Messengers.

God saves everyone no matter what. This is what unconditional love means. No conditions. said my God is strong than your god because my God is strong enough to put love before justice.

No God saves everyone no matter what. Your God is a fabrication, an illusion.

You have no idea what God does.

But you just said you know what God does. Why not call a truce and agree to disagree? You can have your God and I will have mine and the truth about God will be revealed when we die.

Judging people is an anthropomorphic quality.

Judging people is one thing that an omnipotent God does. Everyone except you knows that, even atheists.

The face of God in this context means come face to face or be in the presence of God.

That is only going to happen to souls who are worthy to be in God’s presence.

When we die we go into the light. Our thoughts stop.

You have no evidence to support that. By contrast all NDEs claim they were fully conscious and all spirits that have communicated to mediums said that were fully conscious, they said nothing about “going into the light.”

Choices are not based on evidence. Decisions are based on evidence. A true choice is not based on reason. I make my choice because I know it is true based on my intuition coming from within.

Reason-based choices are based upon evidence. And then we make decisions.
Your intuition is subject to error and in your case it is so influenced by your desire to believe what you so that you cannot possibly be objective.

You are only choosing the way you do because you like it. You have no evidence.

I have mountains of evidence.

Or, in your case, there is no way to know if your choice to believe your messengers are speaking for God is objectively correct. Both our choices are just as equal.

That is true, there is no way to know if my choice to believe Messengers are speaking for God is objectively correct. But both our choices are not equal because there is evidence that indicates the Messengers got messages from God whereas you have nothing but a personal opinion about God.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is true, there is no way to know if my choice to believe Messengers are speaking for God is objectively correct. But both our choices are not equal because there is evidence that indicates the Messengers got messages from God whereas you have nothing but a personal opinion about God.

Not that you and I believe it, but in the NT and Jewish Scriptures God did things to prove he was real... usually by killing the enemies of the Israelites. He parted the seas. Destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Sent fire from heaven to burn up Elijah's offering. Sent the people manna from heaven. Had angels appear to people and so on. In the NT, God spoke from heaven, had Jesus walk on water, struck two people dead for lying about giving all their money to the Apostles. Not to mention that thing about Jesus coming back to life.

That stuff is still convincing proof for many Bible believers. Even today, some preachers and their followers hear from God in their prayers. They have healed people by calling on the name of the Lord. So to them it is all very real and the healings and answered prayer is proof... to them.

But even some Baha'is have "miracles" happen to them. One travelling teacher told the story of how the road she was on was washed out and she prayed and told the driver to back up and floor it. She claimed the car flew across the gully and landed on the other side, and she was able to get to the place where she was going to give a talk. Then, I heard several stories of Baha'is that had Abdul Baha' appear to them. Back then, I also had people tell me that they saw a golden door on Mr. Shasta where the flying saucers go in. So, unfortunately, there's good reason for me to doubt all of these people. And with the Bible, it means I doubt the writers, who probably weren't there, were telling the truth. Rather, for me, they were probably embellishing the stories about a God and his people.

So instead of being "proof", these claims make things worse and more reason to doubt what religious people are saying. To some, the Bible becomes a joke and those that take it literally as being gullible. So, even though only a few Baha'is say they had some vision or some miracle, but all Baha'is are putting a huge claim out there... that Baha'u'llah is The Father, is the Return of Christ, of Buddha, of Krishna and so on. And all Baha'is have to show us is the writings and how he suffered. No grand miracles. Didn't call down fire from heaven. Didn't fly into the clouds.

So what you gonna do? People have become skeptical of people and their religious claims. When we ask for solid proof or answers to tough questions, Baha'is don't have the kind of proof people are looking for. And, sometimes, Baha'is avoid or can't answer the tough questions. The good news, though, I think we all are growing from all this... except maybe.. no, I better not mention any names. But, you've changed for the better in my opinion. So keep going Trailblazer.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what you gonna do? People have become skeptical of people and their religious claims. When we ask for solid proof or answers to tough questions, Baha'is don't have the kind of proof people are looking for. And, sometimes, Baha'is avoid or can't answer the tough questions. The good news, though, I think we all are growing from all this... except maybe.. no, I better not mention any names. But, you've changed for the better in my opinion. So keep going Trailblazer.

I understand how people feel abut religious claims and why. I still believe in Baha'u'llah but have been kind of disheartened by the whole religion thing ever since this pandemic came upon us. I do not understand how religious people can keep holding their meetings 'virtually 'as if nothing is going on in the world. I do not understand why Baha'is were celebrating Naw Ruz on March 19. I do not understand how Christians can celebrate Easter. Something is sick about celebrating when people are dying all over the world.

If you do not see me as much as usual on this forum that is because I returned to the primarily atheist forum I used to post on before I came here. I will still be checking in here but I am no mood to talk about God or religion right now.

 

[dfnj]

God’s love is absolute but so is God’s justice.

God has no need to carry out justice. You are attributing your human desire for justice to God. God has no need to carry out your justice for you.

There is nothing delusional about it. Almost everyone in the world believes that someone speaks for God, even if they don’t call them Messengers.

I guess you are not unable to understand my argument. God is incomprehensible so no one can know the mind of God. If they did they would be God. God is beyond our comprehension. I don't know the mind of God. You don't know the mind of God. And without any doubts your messengers do not know the mind of God, period. No one is perfect like God. You are making counter claims to the most obvious truth.

What is delusional is to think you can know about God without an intermediary.

My opinion about God is just as good as yours or any of your messengers pretending to speak for God. You can't prove your messengers actually speak for God. You are just making it up in your delusional mind.

When you listen to other people's opinions about God, as opposed to your own, people will try to sell you bibles or get you to join the power structure of their cult.

Your religion would not give me anything more than I already have. All my answers about God come from within. And to be clear, unlike you, I am not saying my answers are the absolute end-all be-all truth.

God is not acting like a human being when He doles out justice. He is acting like God.

What is good and what is evil is purely subjective and is based on an opinion. What is justice is purely subjective and based on an opinion. There are 7.5 billion people on the planet and each one has a different idea about what is good and evil, and what is just and unjust. So out of the 7.5 billion people in the World, which one does God choose has his measuring stick of justice? He doesn't choose any is the only rationale answer.

For example, even though the executioner and the soldier commit acts of murder, depending on context or who's side you are on, changes your judgment.

It is a shame you are so narrow minded and think your own point of view is the only valid one. You are a typical evangelical.

It is different because what I believe comes from a Messenger, who is both human and divine, but what you believe comes from you, and you are only human.

As I said, I have more faith you. I believe everyone is sacred. I believe every is divine. I believe every carries messages from God.

I do not idolize the words of the Bible. The Bible has many issues.

You idolize your messengers. You claim they are the answer to all the World's problems. If only we would all think you do then everything would be peachy. I disagree. The Worlds problems are not going to be solved by silly superstitions coming from goat herders.

You can bet your bottom dollar I am a follower, a follower of Baha’u’llah. You will never be a follower because you think you know more than a Messenger of God.

No, I do not know more. I know just as much. My opinion about God is as good as yours. My opinion about God is just as good as your messengers.

Unless God starts bellowing commands from the clouds we will always have to rely on our opinions of faith.

My religion already gave me a lot that I did not have before since Baha’u’llah knew more than I could ever know, since God taught Him the knowledge of all that has been.

Yes, your religion did not you give you confidence to trust your own inner voice on matters of spirituality. When you depend on authority outside of yourself you are easily manipulated by the powers standing to benefit from your participation in their belief system they are selling for their benefit.

You have no idea what God will do to people when people die.

And either do you! I have my opinions. You have yours. We are even.

 

[dfnj]

Nice try but fail. Those people were not fully dead. If they had been dead they would not have been able to come back to life. All NDEs report that there is a point in the NDE at which they can decide whether they want to die or come back.

My opinion on this evidence is different than your opinion. Why do you think your opinion is a fact. Maybe this is a fundamental flaw with your baha religion in that it teaches you not to believe in yourself.

Besides, some people go into the light, not all people. Other people have frightful NDEs, but after that they turned to religion and it changed their life. Some of those people have another NDE that is glorious.

You are just believing in "frightful NDEs" because this is what you want to believe which supports your desire for imaginary justice.

The soul is responsible for consciousness and the soul is immortal so consciousness does not stop when we die, it continues and becomes much more pronounced than ever before because the body is no longer an impediment for the soul’s full expression. What would be the point of going into the light and not being conscious of that? Did you ever think your paradigm through?

The point is we exist so God can realized every possible reality in reality. We live in a cyclical Universe where we live our lives over and over again. As God shares in our experiences, God's omnipotence is realized as He gets to see every possible choice we could ever possibly make get played out at some point in Time. Time for God is all happens at once in a single instance. God experiences every possible possibility all at once. This is what being omnipotent means. In one lifetime we are serial killer. In another lifetime we are the greatest saint to ever live. Human beings are all possibilities all at once. So why would God judge any one of your infinite number of lifetimes as being more good or more evil than any of the others. God would not choose because God experiences every possible choice. This is what it means to be God.

Where as you and I have little peepholes of conscious experiencing time in a linear fashion full of imperfections and suffering. Where as God perfect, whole, and complete in terms of experiencing every possible possibility all at once.

You need to look into the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. I do not think the nature of existence is as simple as your religion requires.

I don't expect to to accept my point of view. We do not share the same experiences. My point of view is a synthesis of many data points. I fully accept many of my beliefs are axioms accepted as being true without any proof. But I see absolutely no reason to think your way of thinking is better than mine. You obviously are too scared and afraid to think for yourself on these topics. Your idea of god does not allow you to think for yourself. You have no authority.

No, not just as saved by God, not saved at all. God does not save anyone, people have to save themselves.

Yes people have to save themselves. But I disagree with your hateful desire to see God not save everyone. Who are you to judge some people will not be saved? Or, should I say, who do you think you are that you think your messengers are speaking for God? You don't know. You are not God. You don't know God is speaking through your messengers with absolute certainty.

My reason why I think everyone is save is very simple. I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. Any other god is weak. Any other god who does not save everyone is not worth my faith and devotion. I choose to have faith. Nobody knows what God thinks. If my faith if ill-place, which I think it is not, then I will suffer when I die. But I would rather choose to have the strongest possible faith in God than choose to have faith in your lesser god of judgment and supposed god of justice which makes no sense since justice is purely subjective.

My faith is stronger than yours because I choose to believe in a God of unconditional love. There is no bible. There is church. There's no one trying to manipulate anyone else in order to sell something or get someone to join the power structure of some cult. All that exists with my religion is the simple idea God loves everyone and everyone is saved. If you are too weak to love everyone that is your problem. Then my faith is not for you.

We cannot control the list of choices so we have to pick from the choices we do have.
I can hardly believe you just said that. What a cop-out. Life does not force anyone to choose evil, people choose evil because they are selfish.

My words just fly over your head. God created us with imperfections. God did not create us being perfect. If we were perfect, we would have omnipotent powers to ensure all our needs and desires were met. But we do not have omnipotent powers. What we have is needs and desires. Our needs and desires are the source of all that is evil in the World. So what is God judging when He supposedly judges us? God already knows we do not have omnipotent powers. There is no point to judging us as being perfect like God. It is YOU who is judging God as being imperfect by the implication God has a need or desire to judge other people.

Unlike you, I have made peace with all the imperfections in the Universe. I am okay with everyone being saved because I am also imperfect. People do not choose to have needs and desires. Our imperfections are God given. I choose not to blame or hate people for something they are born having. This choice is not a decision based on reasons. I make this choice because it comes from within. Everyone is sacred. Everyone is divine.

I do not judge anyone, but God judges them. Why not just face reality? Everyone else can see it but you, even my atheist friends.

You have friends! You seem like you really hate people. Your baha religion is a religion of hate!

You said God is unknowable so how do you know all these things about God?

I don't know. What I've been saying all along is my opinion about God is just as good as anyone's because no one speaks for God.

Religion and scripture has everything to do with God because it is the ONLY WAY to know ANYTHING about God.

You have a very nice opinion. But I do not agree with it.

Absolute authority? You must think pretty highly of yourself.

You must have ugly low opinion of yourself! For you, all authority comes from your messengers.

God did bellow out to man through the Messengers because God cares about the affairs of man.

Too funny! No matter how many times you say it it still makes me laugh!

What is sad is that you believe you are an absolute authority.

Everything I say just goes right over your head. What I said was I trust my opinion just as much if not more than anyone else's. I do not let other people choose for me and say, "here take my money."

That is true, but that God is not what you believe He is.
There are no dues in the Baha’i Faith.

A wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[dfnj]

There is no evidence to support this view, as my physicist forum owner said.

Well, my physicists say differently than yours.

My religion is not a religion of goat herders as Baha’u’llah was not a goat herder, He was a Persian nobleman. You are lagging 2000 years behind.

La,dee,da. Because you can always trust a "nobleman" when it comes to matters of faith.

You mean I am not willing to trust myself and a religion I made up in my head. I consider that foolhardy. I don’t take chances because there is no need to since I have a real source of information on God-related matters.

As I said, my faith is stronger than your fears.

Nice try, but I did not make anything up, I simply believed what Baha’u’llah wrote. God is not human like and that is why God has to appoint Messengers to speak for Him.

If you say so. Whatever floats your boat.

All true religions come from God through Messengers.

If you say so. Whatever floats your boat.

No God saves everyone no matter what. Your God is a fabrication, an illusion.

My God is stronger than your God because my God saves everyone.

But you just said you know what God does. Why not call a truce and agree to disagree? You can have your God and I will have mine and the truth about God will be revealed when we die.

I will keep on loving. You can keep on hating.

Judging people is one thing that an omnipotent God does. Everyone except you knows that, even atheists.

God has no need to judge us. God already knows who we are.

That is only going to happen to souls who are worthy to be in God’s presence.

Every soul is sacred. Every soul is divine. God loves every facet of His creation equally. This is because every piece of existence is part of God's soul.

You have no evidence to support that. By contrast all NDEs claim they were fully conscious and all spirits that have communicated to mediums said that were fully conscious, they said nothing about “going into the light.”

You are right. I have no evidence. Like many belief systems mine includes certain axioms I consider to be true without any proof.

But unlike you, I do not have any delusions my way of thinking is absolute truth. Everything I believe is a choice. A choice and not a decision based on reasons. My choices come from within. I just trust my inner authority when it comes to matters of faith.

Reason-based choices are based upon evidence. And then we make decisions.
Your intuition is subject to error and in your case it is so influenced by your desire to believe what you so that you cannot possibly be objective.

Yes my intuition is subject to error no different than yours or the messengers you idolize. You have the same desires. You desire your messengers are speaking for God. It is no different than what I am doing.

I have mountains of evidence.

You have mountains of opinions.

That is true, there is no way to know if my choice to believe Messengers are speaking for God is objectively correct. But both our choices are not equal because there is evidence that indicates the Messengers got messages from God whereas you have nothing but a personal opinion about God.

You have the opinion there is "evidence" the messengers are speaking for God. Whatever floats your boat.

One man's religion is another man's cult. I'm okay with it.

 

[ManSinha]

I choose to have faith. Nobody knows what God thinks. If my faith if ill-place, which I think it is not, then I will suffer when I die. But I would rather choose to have the strongest possible faith in God than choose to have faith in your lesser god of judgment and supposed god of justice which makes no sense since justice is purely subjective.

My reason why I think everyone is save is very simple. I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. Any other god is weak. Any other god who does not save everyone is not worth my faith and devotion. I choose to have faith.

And the lord agrees with you @dfnj Gita 2:47

karmaṇy-evādhikāras te mā phaleṣhu kadāchana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr mā te saṅgo ’stvakarmaṇi

You have a right to perform your prescribed duties, but you are not entitled to the fruits of your actions. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, nor be attached to inaction.

Gita 7:6

etad-yonīni bhūtāni sarvāṇītyupadhāraya
ahaṁ kṛitsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā

Know that all living beings are manifested by these two energies of mine. I am the source of the entire creation, and into me it again dissolves.

Gita 7:29

jarā-maraṇa-mokṣhāya mām āśhritya yatanti ye
te brahma tadviduḥ kṛitsnam adhyātmaṁ karma chākhilam

Those who take shelter in me, striving for liberation from old-age and death, come to know Brahman, the individual self, and the entire field of karmic action.

And, IMHO the ultimate expression of free will

Gita 18:63

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛiśhyaitad aśheṣheṇa yathechchhasi tathā kuru

Thus, I have explained to you this knowledge that is more secret than all secrets. Ponder over it deeply, and then do as you wish.

FWIW

 

[dfnj]

And the lord agrees with you @dfnj Gita 2:47

karmaṇy-evādhikāras te mā phaleṣhu kadāchana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr mā te saṅgo ’stvakarmaṇi

You have a right to perform your prescribed duties, but you are not entitled to the fruits of your actions. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, nor be attached to inaction.

Gita 7:6

etad-yonīni bhūtāni sarvāṇītyupadhāraya
ahaṁ kṛitsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā

Know that all living beings are manifested by these two energies of mine. I am the source of the entire creation, and into me it again dissolves.

Gita 7:29

jarā-maraṇa-mokṣhāya mām āśhritya yatanti ye
te brahma tadviduḥ kṛitsnam adhyātmaṁ karma chākhilam

Those who take shelter in me, striving for liberation from old-age and death, come to know Brahman, the individual self, and the entire field of karmic action.

And, IMHO the ultimate expression of free will

Gita 18:63

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛiśhyaitad aśheṣheṇa yathechchhasi tathā kuru

Thus, I have explained to you this knowledge that is more secret than all secrets. Ponder over it deeply, and then do as you wish.

FWIW

I agree with all your sentiments of your scripture. We are all two yet the same from within. We all share the same source of being.

 

[CG Didymus]

Our world is fast changing. Now this virus is closing down the world.

Does your religion say anything about these times? My religion says plenty.

So what does this virus mean to religionists? Is it a prophecy of your Faith? Or do you think it is preparing the world for something?

Please share your views as I have many passages in my Faith referring to these times but want to know what you all think, believe and feel.

Those without a Faith may like to comment on the financial and social implications of the world shutting down, how long it might last and what long term effect it could have.

Will this cause permanent changes to humanity?

So what's new? It's kind of interesting that only "essential" work is being done. What does that say about what the rest of us do to make a living?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what's new? It's kind of interesting that only "essential" work is being done. What does that say about what the rest of us do to make a living?

If it is not related to food or health of humans or animals or gas to get to the grocery or drug store then it is not essential for other people...However, if it is government that serves the public it is considered essential. i work for the state and that is considered essential, and since most of us can work at home on a laptop we are not endangering ourselves or others by continuing to work. So I have been working at home since the governor closed state offices.

I thought you were retired. I was considering retiring in the next few months but now this pandemic will delay that because I cannot make such a big decision with so much uncertainty in the country and the world. My coworker was going to retire in June but she has also pushed the date forward to the end of the the year.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that there is ample evidence that the Christ Spirit has returned.

You have not been saying it forever, but Christians have been saying it ever since Jesus died on the cross.

I believe I have that and many other Christians also but the B man didn't. A Christ Spirit is not the same thing as a Christ body. It is the bodily return that has not yet been fulfilled.

I believe it has been a long time but a long time is not forever.