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Featured Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Mar 14, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How do you know? I for one know that taught things I did not know before I read it.
    They have a divine nature as well as a human nature.

    “And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.....The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.””
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

    Yes, there is no reason God would send Messengers. God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. For God to choose to send someone would imply God has a purpose. Having purpose means God has some kind of need or desire driving the purpose.

    If God sent Messengers all it would mean is that God has a purpose for humans. That does not mean that God has any needs or desires of His own. God has no needs but since humans have needs God sends Messengers to meet their needs.
    Then why haven’t we solved our problems? I propose it is because most of humanity rejected the latest Messenger, His teachings, His laws, and His program to fix things. Humanity has te potential to be perfect but not without Guidance from God.
    I do not want to argue that point anymore except to say the Will of God is not the same as the Mind of God. Is my volition the same as my mind?
    You are right, God needs nothing from us, but we need something from God.
    You can communicate to God directly but God is not going to communicate back. No, they would not teach that because there is no reason why humans would ever need to communicate to God directly, since God sends Messengers who act as intermediates.
    It would be the height of hubris if they were pretending. Do you believe that Jesus was pretending to speak for God?
    That is exactly what Baha’u’llah taught us, independent investigation of truth.
    No, you did not get it. You, like many believers and nonbelievers, cannot stand the idea that someone God appointed knows more than you do. That is the height of hubris.

    Baha’is do not worship the Messengers of God, we worship only God. The Messengers simply act as a Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of God.
    Where in that passage does it say that God has a need to be worshipped? Nowhere. The throne is symbolic for a high place where God rules.
    Again, you believe in a fantasy God who never punishes anyone even when they deserve it. What kind of a parent would never punish a child? A bad parent. That is not love when you allow people to hurt other people with no consequences.

    Letting everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal Heavenly bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion is complete injustice.
    Where did you get that information? Oh I forgot, you made it up.
    Your God does not exist. However, a loving God does exist.

    "How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light." ('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

    God’s love knows no bounds but God’s justice also knows no bounds. Treating everyone the same way no matter how good or evil they are in not justice.
    Again, I did not say that God was going to carry out a judgment, like the judgment day Christians believe in. I said we reap what we sow. That is the law of karma. God is not going to reward people for evil deeds with a welcome mat in heaven. If we earned heaven by our faith and deeds we will get there.
    That is true as noted in my quote above.
    Or wait till you die and then you will reap what you sowed. That is justice.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is a straw man. I never said God has needs. God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining.
    That is another straw man. I do not hate God. Hitler does not go to heaven because Hitler does not deserve to go to heaven. This has nothing to do with God, God us not standing at some pearly gates handing out passes.
    Nobody has to be perfect to get to heaven. Nobody has to be sin free. God is forgiving. We just have to lead a moral life and live by the golden rule.
    I do not believe in Adam and Eve and original sin. I believe in free will but I also believe it has many constraints. Only God can judge us because only God knows what our capacities are. If we did not have the capacity then God won’t hold us accountable.
    God does not have to go to anyone for answers because God is All-Knowing. It is only God who knows what is evil and not because God sets the standards for morality.
    Wow! That is quite a fantasy you have concocted. This is not supported by any NDEs because those people were not fully dead and it is not supported by any accounts from mediums who have communicated with those who are in the spiritual world. All accounts are of various levels people end up at according to their moral center of gravity.

    Moreover, there is never a time when there is nothing left to learn because there would be no reason to live forever if we could not continue to progress and learn. How boring that would be.

    “And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

    Moreover, all accounts of the spiritual world from mediums as well as what Baha’u’llah wrote about the soul indicate that we retain our individual soul forever, we do not melt into God. But you are right that if we played our cards right in this world there will be no more suffering, only joy.
    Your omnipotent God of unconditional love and your corresponding afterlife does not exist. You have created a fantasy in your own mind and you believe it to be real.
    So what? It does not matter what people think about it, it only matters what God thinks, and in this life what the justice system decides.
    I agree that if you cause suffering in others it will come back to hit you in the face, if not in this life in the next. Why does it matter if someone you sinned against forgives you? That does not expatiate your sin. It is you who has to forgive yourself. If the victim does not forgive you they will suffer, not you.
    What you are saying is that humans exist for God, when the reality is that God exists from humans. You said before that God has no needs and now you are saying that God needs us to experience His omnipotence.

    Why would God have to realize His omnipotence? Why would a God who is whole and complete have a need to experience anything related to humans?
    I have to say I consider this bizarre, that God would need to depend upon humans to experience Himself, to “be all he can be” -- bizarre.
    Strange, very strange.
    Straw man. That passage says that after their physical death people will estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. There was nothing about what God would do to them in that passage.
    Did I ever say that we should not be forgiving? Did I ever say we should be hateful?
    So you believe that God revealed a message to you?
    The reason you are never going to give up your beliefs about the afterlife is because you are happy with them and as such you are looking so forward to what you believe is going to happen. If you only knew how much better the Baha’i heaven is you would drop your beliefs in a heartbeat. That is not why I am a Baha’i but it is certainly a side benefit.

    If you are interested I will post a short video that describes the afterlife according to my beliefs.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Whew! Now that is a relief. I thought you did not like religion. Why would you study it?
    Any of us can imagine anything we want to about God but God is unknowable so we cannot know what God can do or what God does. I believe God reveals messages to Messengers, but I do not claim to know anything else God does.
    I also believe that but I also believe that humans reap what they sow and there is no reason why God would be obligated to reward them for bad deeds. That is unjust. God can be all-loving and just.
    I believe I know as much as I can know about God through the Writings of Baha’u’llah and it all makes sense to me. I would never believe I could know any other way. As Jesus said, the only way to the Father was through Him, but now the way is through Baha’u’llah becayse he is the Messenger of God for this age..
    I am afraid of nothing but God.
    Unconditional love with no justice makes no sense to me. That is why you won’t find it in the Bible or any major religion.
    Not true, because when you say that God lets everyone into heaven you are speaking for the Will of God – what God chooses to do.
    God does not need to realize His omnipotence because God already knows He is omnipotent. God knows everything. God does not live through us, we live through God.
     
  4. MNoBody

    MNoBody Active Member

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    Matt. 5:48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
     
  5. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    What if you, a human, conscious, owning all thoughts and concepts creation and the cosmos not exist.

    No talking, no thinking.

    You then claim and an entity then exists by itself.

    Yet as a human thinking one space...cold deep empty space...and mass held space, and the space near it either cold or heated depending on whether gases are burning or not burning.

    Hugely diverse...so where is the spirit, the God self?

    History taught us about Satanists and Satan....for what purpose. If we were Satan as some like to preach then we owned how we formed. And then supposedly a God would say.....you deserve that form.

    So who is God? For you say Satan is the Heavenly angels!

    We live as consciousness a bio life inside of the gas mass heavenly body.

    Makes no sense.

    Therefore if I said...once no creation existed, which means that change, burning and converting and status science known would not exist either.

    Meaning what did space own when it was not emptied?

    And the answer is eternal.

    Now if a human says to self....our bio Nature can only come out into a cold gas atmosphere....yet science says, natural light where it is formed is gases burning.

    He would placate that the self had to come out into dark clear night time sky...and be lying.

    For we do not own life without light.

    We are in fact in a cooled condition, in water/oxygen that cools burning conditions.

    So you start to relate conscious perception for a human reasoning, conscious perception and why, when a conscious self, innocent put mind where it never belonged into themes reactions and change...….they inherited mind/brain change also.

    It was simple when spirit taught me that they existed, to understand a male group who said I created God.

    For you would have been in the eternal spirit as the eternal spirit who changed language...all concepts that the scientist uses...to make claims about God history.

    And you personally would have sent it out.

    As a great big spirit could not manifest out of eternal to inherit, I caused it....a living spiritual massed body did...the Nature Garden.

    Then only small singularly owned bodies came out....humans and animals.

    Humans change, humans died....animals then humans when the atmosphere returned cooling after the ICE AGE.

    If a male keeps claiming I own all the powers in the cosmos it has to be a conscious precept that allows him to believe in that concept. As a spiritual story.

    Now if you looked at a historic Earth vision when you personally did not exist, knowing because the Earth was flooded right up to mountain tip. You study a reactive attack on Earth....you live and yet not want self karmic inheritance.

    To be conscious, to be a lower life form...a human and think for lowering of self....reaction/Satanism.

    How was the story not correct?

    The male conscious most highest self was recorded by man voice and image and put into the atmospheric body with the Satan angels. How was that not a true history.....cause science.
     
  6. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    You claim the Messengers know about the unknowable. It's the same thing except you are looking outside of yourself for spiritual answers. As Buddhist like to say, "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

    Both ways are not obligated. This would imply God had a need or desire. The same is true with punishing people you are unwilling to love. God does not share your needs and desires has been my main theme all along.

    There are many paths to God. I'm sure you will be saved no matter what regardless of how you practice your religion. This is what my omnipotent God of unconditional love does. No conditions. My God is strong. My God is perfect!

    Many people idol worship Jesus. I doubt very much joining the Jesus fan club will get you salvation. The only way to get salvation is from the people we have sinned against. Just joining the fan club or saying magic words doesn't mean anything. I am surprised you do not believe in my golden rule of karma. If you cause suffering in others you will live a life of suffering in equal proportion. If we do not clean up our own sins we will live a life of suffering here and now in the present.

    This is just awful. I cannot imagine being afraid of God. God is the source all that is good and perfect in the World. God is the juice that makes life worth living. There is nothing else more worthy to be attracted to than God. Why would you ever turn away out of fear?

    Evil is always where you least expect it. Here's the thing. People will try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. I guess since I live in the New York area we have a culture of shysters. People will try to take advantage of other people's weaknesses. This is why I say absolute authority comes from within. If anyone tells you differently they are either trying to sell you something or get you to join the power structure of their cult. There is big money in religion.

    Conservative pastor claims he "healed" viewers of coronavirus through their TV screens

    For me your Messengers are no different than televangelist Kenneth Copeland. Everything you say about your Messengers Copeland's followers say about him. It's not really Copeland's fault people are so gullible. The way you lead is by finding a parade and stepping in front of it. The thing is I would never do what Copeland is doing because I believe in the golden rule of karma. Based on the golden rule of karma who would want to live Copeland's life where everything you hope and dream for no matter how important always turns out to be a lie. Copeland cannot escape the karmic death trap created by his own self-loathing.

    Bad things will continue to happen to us on a spiritual level and in our lives until we find strength from within to stop our self-loathing. Until we stop judging ourselves and the people around us for not being perfect like God we will live lives of misery. Every facet of God's creation is sacred. Until we stop judging God, hating God, we will not be able to appreciate God. People are perfect just the way they are. The World is perfect just the way it is.

    What makes a major religion "major" is people love to hate. Hate sells almost as much as sex sells. But it doesn't have to be this way forever. The parade can or will eventually change direction.

    No, I am not. I am choosing my faith. I said nobody knows the will of God. What I said was an omnipotent God of unconditional love is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. To say God would judge people according to your version of evil is saying God has a purpose. All purposes are driven by needs or desires. God is absolute "goodness" and would be all-loving. Since God is all-loving is my reason why I claim God is allowing everyone to enter the gates of Heaven to experience eternal Heavenly bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religions. The other reason is what people have said about near death experiences for thousands of years. Everyone who has a near death experience talks about going in to the light.

    Again, my faith is choice. I choose to my faith. Of course I could be wrong. But my faith in an all-loving God is much stronger than my fears.


    Of course God lives through us! We would simply not exist without the word of God. We would simply not exist without the breath of God. Our God the Father is the source of all being. But existence doesn't exist on it's own. Surely you've felt a presence to your life bigger than yourself. Have you ever enjoyed a sunrise or sunset. God is in the rain.

    An omnipotent God is certainly able to create a Universe where even He has to wait to see or experience the results. An omnipotent God has no limitations. Being omnipotent is boring. Having limitations is thrilling. I think our Universe exists for the purpose of the realization of unimaginable possibilities. I believe we live in a cyclical Universe where every choice we can make eventually happens over an insanely long about of time throughout many different cycles of our Universe. But every cycle of our Universe, every set of choices we can make, is an integral part of God realizing His omnipotence.
     
    #306 dfnj, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
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  7. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Answering your posts is like praying for me. It takes me an hour. I have to read everything I say 20 times over like mantra. Okay, here we go!

    Thank you agreeing with me on the nature of the one true God.

    I love it when you express the power of your own inner authority!

    I disagree. Living a moral life is a choice we make now. The consequences of our choices are experience we have now in our lives. Hitler experienced the complete collapse of his hubris before he died. For a megalomaniac sociopath there is no greater level of suffering. As much as you hate Hitler doesn't mean anything. Hate is hate. Hating Hitler is allowing Hitler to steal something important from you. People only take away from you what you let them. Don't let them!

    Oh come on. Unless we have omnipotent powers to control our choices there is no test of morality. God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about.

    God created us with imperfections. What will God judge? How can one set of imperfections be gauged against another. Maybe Hitler had a brain tumor pressing the right supramarginal gyrus.

    The Neuroscience of Empathy

    We normally do not judge people who are mentally retarded in the same we do for average people. Except in Texas and the death penalty:

    Will the Supreme Court Stop Texas from Executing the Intellectually Disabled?

    Who are we to judge who is saved and who is not. Nobody knows all the facts. I choose not to have faith in a lesser God who makes choices over who is saved based on petty human desires of revenge and hate.

    Anyone claiming to know what God's standards for morality is delusional. No one knows the mind of God or God's will. We know from our life experiences based on human experiments there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. God is always dropping the ball with short-term unnecessary evil in favor of His long term plan. If we want justice it only comes from us. I know God judging people to suffer for all eternity is a very popular idea with people who are petty, looking for revenge, and are full of hate. But I see no reason think God would share our same needs and desires.

    There is no evidence of people ending up anywhere according to some level of morality except the fantasy delusions of your Messengers pretending to speak for God.

    Hogwash. You are suffering from ego delusion. No one invented sex yet we all have the delusion we invented it. The same is true with every other facet of human character. Everything you think about your own ego that is unique is delusion. Every single way of being you have lives in millions of other people. Nobody really dies because none of us is actually uniquely alive. We all live on in other people in millions of ways. Once you accept your own ego is delusion, your ego will die. And you will be reborn to a greater more fulfilling experience of humanity. We are not like each other. We ARE each other.

    We all simply exist as an expression of God's consciousness. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself.

    Other than the uses of authoritarian words and language there's nothing here I disagree with in regards to this bit of scripture. But I would say it this way:

    "With regards to our death, we will experience the presence of God, we will experience eternal Heavenly bliss, where our Father is the ground of all being. the ultimate consciousness, we will have no needs or desires as we experience God's absolute perfection, wholeness, and completeness forever and ever."

    Words matter. You can't have sovereignty without slavery. The problem with using authoritarian words in this context is people become sadists and masochists. I choose love over hate.

    If you think your Messengers are speaking for God whatever floats your boat. Keep bending your knee to some authority outside of yourself. But I think you are being a victim of a trickster pretending to be God:



    This may be your natural state but it is not mine. I do not crave subjagation.

    My faith is stronger than your fears.

    For you, it only matters what other people are telling you what God thinks.

    Oh my God you are evil! Getting forgiveness from the people we have sinned against is our only salvation. The people around us are sacred. There is no greater reverence for God than taking responsibility and cleaning up your own mess with regards to causing other people to suffer. Because any lesser behavior is turning away from the greatness and perfection that is God. Being great brings us closer to God. Treating other people badly is turning away from the greatness that is God. God is one way of being we aspire to but never fully achieve. But it's very important we try otherwise we will suffer more than we would otherwise.

    How could God be omnipotent without knowing what it means to exist with limitations.

    How else do you think God's omnipotence can happen? As I said, God achieves completeness through sharing in our experiences of having limitations. This is why every facet of God's creation is sacred.

    “Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it.” Niels Bohr

    God is the source of all our beings. All your answers with regards to spirituality come from within. You are obsessed with answers outside of yourself.

    I do not have faith in your lesser God. My God is perfect and stronger than yours. I am just fine where I am.
     
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  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    We can agree that the source of all Good comes from within, that is sound faith, taught by all the Messengers.

    The source within is the light, but we are human and like an unpolished mirror. It is written that we are created on the edge of darkness and at the beginning of light, the light is the potential that can shine from each of us, only when we remove the dross of the world that covers the mirror of our heart.

    The source of light for us, is the Messengers, they are the source of the Light of God within, we have no direct path to God, but via the light of the Messengers. They are the Sun's given of God and all we can see of God, is only the light of the Messengers.

    I see part of the dross on our hearts, is thinking that we are a source, that anything good we offer is from our own self.

    I see it is all depends on how we choose to turn to and reflect the light within.

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    I see that statement, in itself, is not reflecting what is of God.

    Regards Tony
     
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  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Do Baha'i believe that people are born as unpolished mirrors?
     
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  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    I will post this quote so you can read and consider what it is saying;

    "Man is in the highest degree of materiality, and at the beginning of spirituality — that is to say, he is the end of imperfection and the beginning of perfection. He is at the last degree of darkness, and at the beginning of light; that is why it has been said that the condition of man is the end of the night and the beginning of day, meaning that he is the sum of all the degrees of imperfection, and that he possesses the degrees of perfection. He has the animal side as well as the angelic side, and the aim of an educator is to so train human souls that their angelic aspect may overcome their animal side."

    Thus to me it is saying that we need a positive light filled Nature, Nurture and Education to bring the potential of all the light forth from us.

    This is one passage that supports that thought;

    " Man is even as steel, the essence of which is hidden: through admonition and explanation, good counsel and education, that essence will be brought to light. If, however, he be allowed to remain in his original condition, the corrosion of lusts and appetites will effectively destroy him."

    (Bahá’u’lláh, from a Tablet, translated from the Persian)

    We are told that this life is a state of being, a chance to embrace the light and be born again into the Spirit.

    This is the main message of Jesus Christ, it is the message all the Prophets have brought us. We are given the chance to embrace the light in the age we live.

    This is the age many have longed to witness, this is the age where we find the Light is from the same source and we can all connect to it.

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Spiritual human conscious self awareness.....history from spirit eternal.

    As explained in my own research, human motivation for self and family.

    Irrationality to claim it is deserved to suffer...and that karma owns a purpose.

    Falsification of human reasoning, why did I choose to harm my own self?

    Stories and themes to reason purpose of self and motivation of self to have invented as a human, a group of males in a very ancient past the state SCIENCE converting of natural form by the EVIL body, the SUN radiation mass. Extra.

    Therefore just like a scientist first would have questioned...where did creation come from and why am I standing on a planet as a human, has a concept.

    To believe you know, or to believe you do not know.

    To state I am controller, or to believe in statements I was innocent of the knowledge of change.

    Spirit eternal, proved its presence in my life by communicating a vision to my conscious self...which also included changing my physical feelings to a place of complete and utter acceptance, no guilt, no feelings of egotism or status, just presence of being utterly loved wholly.

    Not anything on Earth or anything I experienced, and I experienced the Jesus effect, has ever produced that circumstance.

    Therefore I know what I should be in awareness...as a history.

    When an eternal spirit being sung up God in their eternal body...change was notified.

    Wanted.

    Then when change did not go back to what it was before.....no change.....realization was given to their being.

    That historic information in the eternal spirit is constantly communicated to us, even if you want to believe or disbelieve in spirit existing before creation, before we did....who released everything...and when we die we still own one portion of the spirit that caused creation to be released as a loss.

    What I learnt.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Lol, I do not claim that Messengers know about the unknowable God, I only claim that they receive a revelation from God. That does not mean they know God. Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about the unknowable God, but in this passage He explains how not even the Messengers can know the God, Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence.

    “So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind nor heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures; much less fathom the mystery of Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence. The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63
    I never said that God punishes people. I said that people receive their own punishment, so everyone reaps what they sow.

    Are you saying that not allowing everyone into heaven is God punishing people he is unwilling to love?

    Please note that you are saying that God has a need or desire when you say that everyone is allowed into heaven. God created heaven so it is God’s call who He allows in.
    I agree that there are many paths to God, but I do not believed in the concept of “saved” since there is nothing to be saved from except ourselves.

    God loves us unconditionally but there is no such thing as a God who has conditions for getting into heaven so your god is imaginary. Enjoy your fantasy.
    Yet you illogically believe that if we do not clean up our own sins we will not suffer in the afterlife and that God will accept us all as equals and we will all go to heaven. It is patently illogical to say that what applied to this life does not apply to the afterlife, especially since your belief has no basis. It is a made up belief and you believe just because it appeals to you emotionally.
    I did not say I would turn away from God out of fear. I agree that there is nothing else more worthy to be attracted to than God.

    I am afraid of displeasing God. I am not afraid of what God will do to me, although God can do whatever He damn well pleases to me, because God is omnipotent.
    No, you cannot imagine being afraid of God because you believe in a fantasy God who would never punish anyone, a God who thinks every human being is equal in His sight.
    I believe that absolutely authority comes from God, and it comes through God’s Messengers. To say absolute authority comes from within is to make yourself equal to God.
    Bad things will continue to happen to us on a spiritual level and in our lives until we improve our character and become less selfish. Self-dissatisfaction is a sign of progress because only when we admit to our character defects can we change them.

    You live in a complete fantasy world. Only God is perfect, people are imperfect and the World is certainly not perfect just the way it is. Do you watch any news?
    No major religion teaches anyone to hate, all major religions teach love.
    I believe that God has a purpose for humans, not a purpose for Himself. I never said that God judges according to my version of evil. God judges according to His version of evil. Only God can judge anyone because only God is All-Knowing and All-Wise.
    That is patently illogical and horribly unjust because people are not all equal so they do not all deserve to go to heaven. I could never believe in a God that is unjust.

    The other reason is what people have said about near death experiences for thousands of years. Everyone who has a near death experience talks about going in to the light.

    Not everyone who has had an NDE has had a positive experience. Also, those people were not fully dead, so NDEs are not representative of what happens when one is fully dead and living in the spiritual world..
    My faith is also a choice and I believe in a Loving God who is also Just.
    God does not live through humans, humans live through God, in the sense that we depend upon God for our very existence. God does not depend upon humans for anything at all. God is transcendent, self-sufficient and self-subsisting, independent of any of His creatures.
    God does not have to “wait and see” anything because God is All-Knowing, so God knows everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and everything that will happen in the future. God’s essential knowledge surrounds all things at all times, but God does not exist in time, only humans exist in time. That is why we speak in terms of time.
    Of course an omnipotent God has no limitations. How could you possibly know that being omnipotent is boring? You are talking about God as if He is a human being.

    For humans, having limitations is thrilling and the world exists for the purpose of the realization of unimaginable possibilities. God does not have to “realize” anything because God created everything and knows everything about every single living thing in existence. God does not have to “wait and see.”

    God does not have to “realize” His omnipotence because God transcends everything in existence.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That has nothing to do with my own inner authority.
    That is a straw man. I never said I hated Hitler.
    I do not believe there was ever an Adam and Eve. That was an allegorical story. But let’s say God knew and God allowed them to eat the apple. So what? It just shows that they had free will and they made a mistake.
    God will judge whatever he choose to judge. As I said in the last post, God knows everything so God knows why Hitler did what he did. Since as humans we don’t know everything we cannot judge anyone.
    As fallible humans we can never judge and say who is saved or not.

    We do not have all the facts but God has all the facts and that is why God can judge.

    Holy moly! God does not make choices over who is saved based on petty human desires of revenge and hate. God makes His choices based upon what He knows about people, which is everything.
    We know God’s standards for morality by what is revealed in scriptures. If we did not have that we could not be called to account for our moral behavior.
    I never said that God allows people to suffer for all eternity. That is a Christian belief, but even if Christians believe that it does not mean that they are petty, looking for revenge, and are full of hate. They simply believe that is justice. Since we have free will we make our own choices, so why shouldn’t we pay a certain price for the choices we make? Why should we get off scot-free if we hurt or murder other people? That is not in accordance with justice.

    God is not petty, looking for revenge or full of hate, but God is just and merciful so He will deal with people accordingly. I cannot say what will happen to evil people but neither can you. According to my beliefs, in the spiritual world they will not be where they can hurt good people, but there will still be a change for them to progress. The thing you might not understand is that some people choose evil and thus send themselves to hell, so they would not want to be in the Light. Why would a loving God force them to be in the Light?
    Sorry, but the belief in levels of morality did not come from my Messengers. I suggest you read these books. The first one is online, free to read. The second one is the one that talks about levels, or spheres in great detail. These are not religious books and the second book pokes fun of the Christian heaven.

    Private Dowding
    The Afterlife Revealed
    I am all for the ego dying because ego is a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.

    However, our self is not a delusion because it is our soul, which is who we are and who we continue to be after we die. We are not each other because we all have an individual soul. We are not an expression of God’s consciousness because God is independent of all His creatures.
    I agree with you, but that is not what I believe everyone will experience. It is not pretty for sime people but they make the choice. I suggest you at least read what it says about hell in Private Dowding. Hell is not a place, it is a thought region. Since the soul is what is responsible for consciousness and it is immortal, our thoughts go with is to the spiritual world.

    “Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
    What you are doing is speaking for God and whatever floats your boat. Why can’t you see that? If all Messengers are frauds than I am being misled but what is the chance that Jesus was a fraud? To believe you are an authority on God is very arrogant.
    Belief and faith are not subjugation. Belief in self as an authority is arrogant.
    Who said I have fears? I am not going to get in a contest over who has stronger faith as that is childish. It is also irrelevant, since the only thing that matters is what we have faith in. If someone has strong faith in a false belief it would be better to have no faith at all.
    Other people may choose not to forgive us but it does not matter. Getting forgiveness from God for the people we have sinned against is our salvation.
    I can agree with all of the above.
    How could God be omnipotent if God has limitations?
    God’s omnipotence does not have to happen, it is just who God is. God is complete; God does not have to achieve completeness. Again, you talk about God as if God is a human being.
    Logically speaking, if you were right then everyone would be spiritual and this world would be a paradise, but if you look around you in the world it can be seen that is not the case. Moreover, nobody was born with spirituality; they had to learn to be spiritual. We learn that from religion, either directly or indirectly.
    There is only one God, not yours and mine. Your god conception is contrived; my God conception comes from scriptures. Your god is lesser because it does not exist.

    If you are afraid to see what my religion teaches about the afterlife I suggest you read those nonreligious books about the afterlife I posted the links to. Your afterlife might depend upon having that knowledge. Ignorance is not bliss.
     
  15. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Everyone has the right to their own opinion. You say the Messengers speak for God. How do you know? In other words, how can you trust the "dross" on is causing you to have the incorrect opinion about the Messengers. There are many forms of self-delusion. Maybe you are adding dross when you think you are clearing it.
     
  16. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    When you jump into a long conversation you obviously do not understand the context. This was in reference to the statement God judges everyone after death according to some "level" of soul whatever that means. I was claiming my faith is an omnipotent God of unconditional love who loves every equally without "levels". Since my God is powerful not to judge us after death but only to treat everyone with the same level of unconditional love then the God I have faith in is stronger. My God's love is stronger than any need or desire to judge.

    The way I understand you Baha God is your God chooses favorites. Am I incorrect?
     
  17. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    It's not possible to displease our omnipotent God of unconditional love. That would be a condition of love.

    Absolutely not. What it means is the only opinion about God that matters is the one you cultivate from within. The "Messengers" are not going to tell you anything about God you do not already know.

    One man's religion is another man's cult. The way you believe is just as offensive to me as my way is to you.

    You really hate people. I don't judge other people expecting they should be as perfect as God. This is what I mean by everything is just fine the way it is. People are living their lives and solving their problems as best they can.

    Yes I watch the news. Do you think at any other time in history the news has never been as dire? There will always be problems. Apparently I have more faith in the people than you do also.

    The way I see it all major western religions do is teach obedience to authority so someone can pretend to be God on Earth. Or in your case your Messengers are God on Earth.

    Keep worshiping your God of hate. If you want justice you have to go and get it in a secular court of law.

    An omnipotent God has no limitations. An omnipotent God can be both bored and excited at the same time. Omnipotent means without having any limitations.
     
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    God can love us and still be displeased by our behaviors. Do you actually believe that God is pleased with the behavior of a mass murderer?
    How do you think you can know about God “from within?”

    How do you know the Messengers are not going to tell you anything about God you do not already know?
    You are not going to get away with telling me I hate people or that I judge people. I do not allow anyone to speak for me. I do not judge people or hate people.

    I certainly I don't judge other people expecting they should be as perfect as God but I can also see that everything is not just fine the way it is. Yes, people are living their lives and solving their problems as best they can but in case you have not noticed people are still suffering.
    The news has not been this dire since WWII. I have faith in people but in case you have not noticed people cannot solve these problems by themselves, without help from the government.
    They are the closest we can get to God on Earth because they are Manifestations of God on Earth, perfect mirror images of God.

    Apparently you, like so many other people who make their own religions, do not like obedience to any authority, but if God sent Messengers they speak with God’s Authority.
    I do not worship a God of hate, I worship a God of love and justice. You worship an imaginary god, one you made up.
    God could be both bored and excited at the same time but there is NO WAY you can ever know that. Such is your imaginary god.
     
  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    We choose our life, God is Love and God is also Justice, God is the giver of all virtues. Our world reflects the way that system works, some know it as Karma, some see it as a judgement, in the end we are responsible for and answerable to our actions. The twin pillars of Reward and Punishment, the action is the reward, the lack of that action is the punishment.

    If this system did not exist, it would be equally right that I can hoard all the worlds wealth and live in the luxury of a king, with no morality at all and not see that as a punishment, see that it is a rightful action that an all loving God will reward.

    That can not be supported in all logic.

    Regards Tony
     
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  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    Or the result of our choice not to Love. God gives us rules, failure to live those rules, is the punishment we bring upon ourselves. This tipping of the balance is written into the fabric of this material existence, the evidence all around us.

    Regards Tony
     
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