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Featured Signs of eloquence in Quran

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    You should keep reading it, this how Quran appears to the novice, but if you reflect and keep reading, you will begin to see every chapter has a unique place in Quran but in a subtle way.
     
  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I didn't ignore your point.
     
  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    One the amazing miracles in Quran, is how God is subtle yet clear in proving the Welayah of Ali (a). I already alluded to Ulil-Amr verses, but let's go two different themes. One is the reward theme and the other which this post will be about is the prayer of Musa (a) regarding Harun (a) and how the pertains to Ali (a) and Mohammmad (s).


    (Suratal A'araaf)
    By the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, Alif Lam Mim Saud, a book we have brought down to you so there be no straightness in your breast that you may warn by it and a reminder to the believers.

    (Suratal Hijr)
    And indeed we know your breast is straightened by what they say.

    (Suratal Isra)
    And say God cause me to enter an honest entering and go forth an honest going forth, and give me from you a helping authority.

    (Suratal Inshira)
    By the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, did we not expand you your breast?


    Now a person may think, this has nothing to do with Ali and it would be a stretch to say so. But why emphasize on paraphrasing Moses words to match this:



    [Shakir 20:25] He said: O my Lord! Expand my breast for me,
    وَيَسِّرْ لِي أَمْرِي {26}
    [Shakir 20:26] And make my affair easy to me,
    وَاحْلُلْ عُقْدَةً مِنْ لِسَانِي {27}
    [Shakir 20:27] And loose the knot from my tongue,
    يَفْقَهُوا قَوْلِي {28}
    [Shakir 20:28] (That) they may understand my word;
    وَاجْعَلْ لِي وَزِيرًا مِنْ أَهْلِي {29}
    [Shakir 20:29] And give to me an aider from my family:
    هَارُونَ أَخِي {30}
    [Shakir 20:30] Haroun, my brother,
    اشْدُدْ بِهِ أَزْرِي {31}
    [Shakir 20:31] Strengthen my back by him,
    وَأَشْرِكْهُ فِي أَمْرِي {32}
    [Shakir 20:32] And associate him (with me) in my affair,
    كَيْ نُسَبِّحَكَ كَثِيرًا {33}
    [Shakir 20:33] So that we should glorify Thee much,
    وَنَذْكُرَكَ كَثِيرًا {34}
    [Shakir 20:34] And remember Thee oft.


    وَيَضِيقُ صَدْرِي وَلَا يَنْطَلِقُ لِسَانِي فَأَرْسِلْ إِلَىٰ هَارُونَ {13}
    [26:13] And my breast straitens, and my tongue does not reach, therefore send Thou to Haroun (to help me);



    وَأَخِي هَارُونُ هُوَ أَفْصَحُ مِنِّي لِسَانًا فَأَرْسِلْهُ مَعِيَ رِدْءًا يُصَدِّقُنِي ۖ إِنِّي أَخَافُ أَنْ يُكَذِّبُونِ {34}
    [Shakir 28:34] And my brother, Haroun, he is more reaching in tongue than I, therefore send him with me as an aider, verifying me: surely I fear that they would reject me.


    If we gather these verses, the ones with Mohammad and ones with Moses, the ones with Mohammad are making clear that Aaron was not better in conveying due to a fault of Moses, but that it was "due to what they say", that Moses had such constriction on his heart.

    And the verses with Moses shows Mohammad also never had a psychological weakness or anything, but that, his heart was straightened and constrained by what people were saying.

    It was due to the circumstances they were both in that such constraint took place.

    The relief of this burden weighing heavily on their backs, strengthening them and their affair, was through the conception of succession in Islam.

    Why didn't Moses say yes I can do it, but right away realized he needed a helper to convey better? Again, not due to lack of confidence or ability to convey or speak, but the circumstances.

    So this is one of the themes in Quran and shows wisdom with respect to succession.

    And while Aaron name appears 20 times in Quran (Suratal Taha is 20th Surah as well), his name beside Moses appears exactly twelve times.

    To emphasize more on this:

    By the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Have We not expanded for you your breast, 1And taken off from you your burden, 2Which pressed heavily upon your back, 3And exalted for you your esteem? 4Surely with difficulty is ease. 5With difficulty is surely ease. 6So when you are free, set. 7And make your Lord your exclusive object. 8


    The 6th verse is an allusion to the name Seth and in the same way he was set by God and Adam (a), Mohammad (s) is to set his successor. Keeping in mind the prayer of Musa (a) with Haroun (a), "the name of God" is also an allusion to that Ali (a) is that like Samuel (a) means name of God.

    Seth (a) and Samuel (a) names don't appear in the Quran in Hebrew form but can be said to be alluded here in this chapter.

    Next I will expand on the reward verses.
     
    #43 Link, Jul 26, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  4. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Active Member

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    You don't actually respond to me. You just give a vague and condescending platitude in lieu of an actual answer.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Your assertion was of the same manner. I can't expand in one post and prove all chapters have a unique position.
     
  6. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Active Member

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    That's absurd. You're in fact saying that Allah revealed the qur'an in a less than optimum manner, and that it took mere mortals to arrange it better than He did. Are you really sure you want to hold that position on Judgement Day?

    In verse 5:3, Allah seems to think He did it right when He said, "This day I have perfected for you your religion". The compilers and you seem to think it could have been done better. Repent before it's too late.
     
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  7. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Active Member

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    Another thing. You have yet to tell us how the first Muslims managed to PERFECTLY understand Allah's wishes given that the qur'an was revealed to them in an order that needed to be COMPLETELY rearranged.
     
  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The Quran was dynamically built but with the teachings of Mohammad (a) and Ali (a). Every verse when revealed had a story and reason behind it. Then it took a place in Quran as it was dynamically being built.

    We have the final built version and we don't know exactly how it was dynamically built.

    But the light of Sunnah of the Messenger Mohammad (s) was obviously something that gave life to verses as they were revealed.
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    We had a thread about Uthman and Quran, so I disagree with Sunni version of events pertaining to building of Quran.
     
  10. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Active Member

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    Just to pile on further - If the revelation order of the qur'an needed to be changed, or if it needed further clarification as provided by Mohamed, then why did neither Allah nor Mohamed allow for that in the inevitable event of Mohamed's death? The next generation of Muslims would not have had the benefit of such knowledge. Your explanation has more holes than a whiffle ball.
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Imam Ali (a) collected a Quran that maintained a commentary with it and in that commentary he put the exact timings of each verse. People did not want the truth and so Ali (a) didn't force it on it. But because of it's nature and he didn't want this distorted and in the hands of the wrong people, Ahlulbayt (a) are saving this Quran and explanation of Mohammad (s) and how each verses was revealed and when it was revealed for Imam Mahdi (a).

    Imam Ali (a) gave the nation a chance to have this Quran, but when reject, he and Ahlulbayt (a) protected it and hid it till the Mahdi (a) will use it to show the truth.

    Imam Mahdi (a) is not a Nabi so won't bring a new revelation but he will bring this book as an explanation to Quran and is a Messenger.

    Today, through programming, if we put the dates and time in a program, we can even see how Quran is dynamically built over time. So this perhaps is saved so that the Mahdi (a) along with divine miracles will be able to display the majestic wonders of Quran at much higher level then we know today.
     
  12. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Active Member

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    All you did was confirm that neither Allah nor Mohamed did anything to make sure the qur'an was taught as needed. If what you say is true, it just shows again that Ali had to take it upon himself to do Allah's job for him.
     
  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    If Mohammad (s) did it, and Ali (a) was rejected, it would've became a tool of the enemies to distort and lie about. That is why Ali (a) hid it after offering the people it in the first place, and why Imams (a) are leaving it for the Mahdi (a) to bring to the open. It's too delicate to be the hands of anyone else and to be subject to distortion.
     
  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    @stevecanuck, per Quran itself there is a dark curse from Iblis not only regarding Quran, but all revelations of God. None of the revelations of God or what is left of them, appear in the right way to the hearts due to the dark magic of Iblis.

    But Quran with help of Ahadith of Ahlulbayt (a) as well some reflecting, struggling, prayers, and action in form of light, you can unbind the locks and break the curses and see the Quran for the majestic book of clear proofs.

    I know it's hard, trust, I disbelieved in it myself for 5 years.

    This thread, I am just trying to show some reflecting on eloquence in Quran. Try to see it beyond ego.
     
  15. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Active Member

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    If Allah wanted to clear things up he could simply vanquish Iblis with a snap of his fingers. "It's the devil's fault" is the universal get-out-of-jail-free card for all religions.
     
  16. KWED

    KWED Active Member

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    Why is claimed eloquence ("Fluent or persuasive speaking or writing" - OED) in the Quran anything remarkable?
    You have three main problems here:
    1. Eloquence is subjective. Some people find the Quran eloquent (usually Muslims). Others find it clumsy and derivative. Some just find it boring and repetitive.
    2. There are many books (some of them older than the Quran) that are seen as eloquent by many people.
    3. Pre Islamic Arabian culture had a rich tradition of poetry composition and recital. People would travel long distances to watch competitions between the most eloquent poets.

    So, what does your claim of "eloquence" actually show?
     
  17. KWED

    KWED Active Member

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    The literary or rhetorical devices that appear in the Quran were neither novel nor unique.
    As a literary work it compares poorly to older works by pagans, such as The Odyssey and the Iliad (and Homer was reportedly blind when he wrote it, truly a miracle!).
    Now obviously you might disagree, so where does that leave us? Back at my point 1 in the pervious post. Art is subjective. You are merely presenting an opinion and as such cannot be used as "proof" of anything.
     
  18. KWED

    KWED Active Member

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    So you think brutally torturing disbelievers is a necessary, good and morally acceptable thing.

    Is this just in the afterlife of do you approve of it in this world as well?
     
  19. KWED

    KWED Active Member

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    American Psycho eloquently describes a similar concept.
    And your point is...?
     
  20. KWED

    KWED Active Member

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    You really do have a remarkably low bar for what qualifies as "amazing".
     
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