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Featured Signs of eloquence in Quran

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Link, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    The first sign of eloquence, I would like to mention and analyze is verse 2:255. The Prophet (s) has been reported to have said, everything has a peak, and the peak of Quran is the sign of the chair or verse of the chair.

    Now keeping this in mind, it maybe that it means your emotions reach a climax here at this point 2:255 in Quran, spiritual emotion elevated higher then everywhere else. There are many reasons for this, among them the foundation starting with "and they believe in that which is hidden" and the tone of this chapter.

    But something I would like us to observe is the mirror way of this verse:

    God there is no God but he(1a)
    the Living The Subsisting no slumber him takes nor sleep(2a)
    to him belongs what is in the earth and heavens(3a)
    who can intercede with him except by his permission(4a)
    he knows what precedes them(5a)
    and what comes after them(5b)
    nor do they encompass in knowledge except what he pleases(4b)
    encompasses his seat the heavens and the earth(3b)
    Nor does keeping them tire him(2b)
    And he is the exalted the great(1b)

    As for 1a and 1b, God means the same thing as Exalted but it's absoluter greater then "exalted" such that his exalted ones should not be equated with God, and exalted means the same thing as great, except believers are great and the exalted ones are chosen MUCH above them and it's evil to think we can reach their high status with God "nor can you reach the mountains in height." But what is wonderful about this mirror is the end is a cool down of the former, and so we can see the peak is going down from the beginning of the verse with the end.

    As for 2a and 2b we can tiredness is related to slumber doesn't take nor sleep, that explains subsisting and that explains the living.

    As for 3a and 3b, the first explains universe and earth belongs to God, and the other shows his seat encompasses everything in it and so God rules his creation, which is an argument for his religion, since those who take position of seat are his representatives.

    As for 4a and 4b, this about God's chosen ones, they intercede by his permission, and Quran has emphasizes God chosen them out of his knowledge of their path they will remain upon and trusts them to walk that path, and so again we see relationship between two statements in mirror.

    5a and 5b are next to each other, one is about before and the other after them....

    This way we can see the verse is like a mirror with respect to it's verses. In it we see also a relationship between the titles God Exalted and Great.

    As for the seat verse, it's mirror with "to him belongs what is in the heavens and earth" with "his seat encompasses the heavens and the earth" and dialogue of authority of David and Talut, it's as if water flows down from this verse in emotion to all verses about "to him is what is in the heavens and the earth" with "to him is the authority of the heavens and earth" with "authority" (mulk) and so we see it's as if this is rain cloud from Quran, that waters all the verses through out Quran about mulk (40 verses about Arabic word "mulk" (authority) and that in turn is related to "Amr" and that relates to the holy spirit and the spirit from his command (same thing), which is about those honored servants which God knows what is before them and after them and hence chose them.

    It's as if this verses gives all the mulk verses emotional life, and so this also goes well with the living discussion.

    And since religion is often described to be submission, this highly important to recognize as the peak.

    In this regard the Prophet describing it as the climax, and the mirror way it flows, and how that relates to the Quran and many topics within this verse, and how it gives it life, is no doubt amazing.

    Now this just observing one verse. I will explain more about it with respect to the chapter and context, then we will see something amazing on that, with respect to the next chapter (Auli-Imran).

    This is just noting the position of Ayatul Kursi. We are so far discussing the place of one verse with respect to Quran and looking at what Nabi (s) said about it.

    It's amazing. Also, when discussing Suratal Ikhlas (chapter 112), I will come back to the importance of "Al-Hayu" and we will see how Quran discussed this through out.
     
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  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    As for what someone asked pertaining to "objective", I would say so far, the mirror way this verse is, is an objective observation. Maybe we are all amazed at it differently, some will say well that's cool, others amazing, others will get a much bigger wow factor if they know the place of the verse 2:255 with it's own chapter and Quran, etc....

    And so this another thing about Quran. The more knowledge you gain of it and from it, you gain more access to signs in it, which open access points to more of it's signs. I will get into this in more detail and remind of it as I explain eloquent signs within Quran.
     
  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    @Nimos this thread will go into details about signs of eloquence in Quran. This is where the details to your query about Quran will be, not in a thread where it will all get lost and mixed. :)
     
  5. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Cheers :D

    I don't really have a lot of questions about it, because im not really sure what you are talking about? I have heard people claim that the Quran is written in such a special way that it like nothing else, I don't know if that is what you refer to when you say signs of eloquence? But I don't buy that as an valid reason, if that is the case.
     
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  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The following thread we are talking about whether it's legitimate challenge or not, but this thread we are simply observing eloquent signs and making a cumulative case (so you can comment on the specific observations I making about Quran):

    The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge? | Religious Forums

    The thread I linked to is more in lines to do with, if Quran is full of eloquence higher then what all other humans till this day can do (or even Jinn of soothsayers for those believe in them), is it a legitimate claim to make that no one being able to bring like of it is a sign of it being from God.

    I like to keep things clean and crispy. Each topic with it's own debate and dialogue, not mix everything up.
     
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  7. Viker

    Viker Filia Diaboli, in a shroud of metaphor and mystery

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    I'm not really qualified in the slightest to get in a Qur'an based discussion/debate. I've rarely have even touched a Qur'an. Maybe out of fear of spontaneous combustion. :p

    You could help by explaining further what is meant by the OP, though. :D
     
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  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    We are going to discuss the build up a little bit. Before that, I feel, we have to understand a bit of how Quran is introduced in the final form it is now in.

    The Quran talks about the 7 Mathani and that refers to the opening chapter (Surah Fatiha). One thing to note on this chapter, it's that, it's very neutral yet very potent in proving everything in the Quran. It says things almost everyone can relate to and agree upon (except Atheists).

    By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, the (especially) Compassionate.
    The praise is to God Lord of the Worlds.
    The (universally) Compassionate, the (especially) Compassionate.
    The Master/Controller of the day of Judgment.
    You do we Worship and You do we seek help from.
    Guide us the straight path.
    The path of those who your favor is regarding, other than who's your wrath is regarding, nor of those who are astray.


    This chapter is very neutral yet very specific to believers in understanding when they read the Quran. The Quran could've said "the path of Mohammad and ....", but it left very general, the path of those who his favor is regarding. It can mean anyone really who is favored by God, but it can and Quran will argue, it means those who the favor towards humanity is regarding, which is his chosen ones. In this time, it refers to Mohammad and his family, but that will be seen through out Quran as to why. The verses themselves are general, and leave it open for interpretation. The Quran interprets this way eventually, but it takes time to see how Quran explains them all.

    The way these verses are very general yet how Quran argues by them, and expands on them, is itself very eloquent. The name of God, people can say it means anything, but there is specific meaning to it, and there are houses that God makes it remembered therein

    It is said all the clear signs in Quran, are somehow found in this chapter. 7 simple sentences so simple yet so deep. It also appeals to all humans yet Quran through these verses goes into details and expands.

    The place of these 7 chapters is that they should be recited in every Salah. We repeat this chapter and so can get bored of it, or we can always relate it to each Surah we read, and so then our understanding of these 7 verses improve and then it doesn't become boring to recite in prayer over and over again.
     
    #8 Link, Jun 16, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    So far, to make it short. I've discussed the mirror image of 2:255 and some eloquence of that with respect to what hadiths saying about it being the peak in Quran. As well, I talked about the amazing way the first chapter is neutral for humans of any religion yet Quran expands on it and shows how it proves everything as well.

    I believe so far these observations:
    (1) Mirror image in 2:255 and it being a peak according to hadiths
    (2) Neutral generality for first chapter and it being repeated in Salah for a reason
    (3) Specific argument for the 7 Mathani in rest of Quran and augmenting understanding of Al-Fatiha and making it not boring to repeat everyday.

    These are objective observations. And we are scratching a little bit of high features of eloquence.
     
  10. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    I don't see anything remarkable about those 3 points though...

    Have you heard Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I have a dream"? That's what I call eloquence.
     
  11. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    Yes, the qur'an is just so eloquent. Take 47:15 for example - "... those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder". Or 22:19-20 - "But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water by which is melted that within their bellies and [their] skins". Even those two pale compared to 4:56 - "Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment".

    O, the eloquence.

    Move over, Keats. Move over.
     
  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    If hell is a good thing to believe in and God's wrath is important to be manifested and to what exactly his wrath covers, in your view, does Quran do it eloquently or not?
     
  13. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    What the Hell (pun intended) is eloquent about bowels being cut up?
     
  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It signifies eloquently the depth of God's wrath and punishment for oppressors while also manifesting hell clearly for what it is clarifying it through out what it is.
     
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    One of the amazing features of Quran is how it is layered in layers for all humans.

    At one level, all it wants from it's viewers is not to dismiss it:

    Say, ‘Tell me, if it is from Allah and you disbelieve in it, who will be more astray than those who are in extreme defiance?’ (41:52)

    He said: O my people! have you considered if I have a clear proof from my Lord and He has given me a goodly sustenance from Himself, and I do not desire that in opposition to you I should betake myself to that which I forbid you: I desire nothing but reform so far as I am able, and with none but Allah is the direction of my affair to a right issue; on Him do I rely and to Him do I turn. (11:88)


    Just consider it possible, and there is many verses. At another level it has even if it's false approach, don't dismiss the logic of sending Messengers and God's breathing his words of light to life in general:

    Or do they say: He has forged a lie against Allah? So if Allah pleased, He would seal your heart and Allah will blot out the falsehood and confirm the truth with His words; surely He is Cognizant of what is in the breasts.(42:24)

    The last phrase is saying say Mohammad is false, then don't dismiss Messengers in general. And we find, that the Quran says there would be a family of the reminder regardless if Mohammad's (s) family is that, and so don't dismiss the logic of God sending Messengers even if you don't believe in the specific one Mohammad (s).

    I personally find this very eloquent, in how it's layered "have you considered if I am true and there is clear proof than why then would it be that you don't see me as truth?" and "even if say I am a liar and forger, is it not true that God annuls falsehood and verifies the truth with his words as not to dismiss the logic of God sending guidance in general?".

    This is beautifully put in my perspective and this theme is found through out Quran. This to me is a major sign that Quran is for all humans, doubters and believers alike, to reflect about.
     
  16. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    Another amazing point is how it reminds of God's existence, and how it emphasized particularly on God's sight of us to remind of himself:

    Does he think that no one sees him? (90:7)

    Does he not know God sees?
    (96:14)

    We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? (41:53)

    What, He who stands over every soul for what it has earned? -- And yet they ascribe to God associates. Say: 'Name them! Or will you tell Him what He knows not in the earth? Or in apparent words?' Nay; but decked out fair to the unbelievers is their devising, and they are barred from the way; and whomsoever God leads astray, no guide has he.(13:33)


    To see details of how this reminds and proves he exists: Objective Value and seeing argument! | Religious Forums
     
    #16 Link, Jun 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
  17. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    Mohsin Khan's take on 42:24: Or say they: "He has invented a lie against Allah?" If Allah willed, He could have sealed your heart (so that you forget all that you know of the Quran). And Allah wipes out falsehood, and establishes the truth (Islam) by His Word (this Quran). Verily, He knows well what (the secrets) are in the breasts (of mankind).

    I don't understand your version. It makes no sense to me.
     
  18. stevecanuck

    stevecanuck Member

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    This is a debate forum, not a preaching forum.
     
  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The fact Quran picked this as the argument that should suffice with respect to God, I find highly eloquent and beautiful. Of course, if you don't believe in the argument, that's different. But for those who understand it and believe in it, it should be a major sign of how Quran eloquently reminds of God's existence.
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    What doesn't make sense to you? What don't you understand?
     
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