1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Signs from Apostles of allah, what are they?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by *Paul*, Jan 29, 2007.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    That doesn't prove Jesus's divinity because you are fully aware of the things which was added to the scripture as explainations and further more dogmas which support the chruch stance on Jesus status.

    Until now you didn't produce any prove that Jesus is God. If you did so, so he is no more a prophet.

    You better look into my pervious post to see how obedient he was on the cross.

    You are talking about different chapters and combine them to prove somthing. His anointed doesn't only reffer to Jesus and i find it hard to believe that the scripture make it hard for you to prove that Jesus was the only son and that he was God. Still, i don't understand how come there is two begotten sons which make me think of the other sons mentioned in the bible as well and you know about it.
     
  2. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    I'll have to go now and i'll come back to reply to the other posts and i hope that you will wait for me till i finish my reply to the other posts of you.

    Peace be with you and upon you. :)
     
  3. fullyveiled muslimah

    fullyveiled muslimah Evil incarnate!

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,095
    Ratings:
    +465
    interesting. I would open a thread about this next comment of mine if I had a way to be consistently posting but maybe another qualified person of knowledge here will follow my trian of thought.

    Side note: It is of interest to me that whenever Paul posts something from the Bible to prove the divinity of Jesus, he goes to the latter books of the new testement. These latter books as we know are merely letters from Paul to the various people he was addressing. Not once have I seen as comprehensive amount of quotes of these natures coming from what Jesus is reported to have said. Most of them are from Paul. It was a very shrewd trick indeed putting Paul's letters inside of the Bible like that. At best, Paul was no more than a scholar if you will, that wrote a series of letters as an exegesis on the Injeel. The letters he writes contain he musings on what he thought Jesus meant to say as was presented to him. Never should these letters been introduced between the covers of a book from Allah. The equivalent of that action to Islam is like placing the exegesis of Ibn Kathir inside of the Quran itself. That would be a mistake of the gravest order. Placing the writings of Ibn Kathir inside of Quran gives it a sanctity and authority that it otherwise does not have. This is essentially what has been done with the case of Paul. He wrote some letters on how he interpreted the sayings of Jesus. These letters were somehow deemed good enough to be placed alongside the sayings of Jesus in one volume. On the immediate reading of what Paul wrote one will find that in many places he contradicts Jesus, and in other places he gives a very fanciful explanation of Jesus' words without any proof of why he thinks what he thinks. However, there were placed in the Bible. This presents a quandry for a good christian. A christian would never believe in part of the book and not the rest, so therefore must believe Paul's writings as a truth no less than from God Himself. So even vary contradictory words of Paul must be explained somehow to fit in with what Jesus said because neither can be denied based on the fact that both are contained in the Bible.

    Whether or not Paul was correct is almost irrelevant. For instance, muslims know that Muhammad (saw) was never wrong about Islam. However, there is no way we would ever include hadith amidst the verses of Quran. They simply aren't the same. The hadith is the speech of the Prophet as inspired by Allah, and Quran is kalamullah/speech of Allah directly.........not the same thing. If hadith had been included in Quran we would have to accept even fabricated hadith as good, without a basis on which to deny it seeing as how it is in the Quran. ANy good muslim will have to accept it. However, since hadith are not included in the text of Quran, we are free to differentiate between what is authentic and what is not based on many facets of knowledge.

    This is the corruption of which muslims speak. The mixing of words. Mixing the truth of God with the lies of people. The is the issue we take with the Bible. It is not a false book, it's a book that has undergone unauthorised change.....there is a difference.


    Do not allow this post to sidetrack this thread. I would like to see someone open this as a thread topic if desired and continue with this train of thought if possible. I would request one of my muslim bros/sis to continue in this thread with my trian of thought. If possible I want Mujahid to do it since I think he has the info. I was going ot set about providing info on what it was that the prophets of old taught through the ages, and directly link that with what the Prophet taught. This will essentially help answer the questioned posed in the OP. When this can be done, I believe the universality of the true messege of ISlam will become apparent. oh yeah, go back further than Ibrahim. Start at the top and work your way down. Long task I know but I think it is important.
     
  4. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,224
    Ratings:
    +171
    Religion:
    Christian
    I will answer you both soon, while i was waiting I have got involved in a debate with a catholic which I view as a far more dangerous religion than Islam, please be patient.
     
  5. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    And this devil ask them to believe in one God and ask them to believe in the pervious scriptures?

    That's Paul's saying but not Jesus and not even God.

    Paul is the one who said that ...


    16 For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. 17 And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep: 21 For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22 And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.


    And what is that is supposed to look like?

    A ressurected body is supposed to be like a ghost "spirit" or with a body with a flesh and blood?

    Based on no proof.

    Paul again, but not God's or Jesus's words.


    LOL.


    You are confusing me now. You believe Jesus was a man or God?

    I guess you have no idea what the Quran says about Jesus Christ.


    How do you know that Mohammed taught contrary to what Jesus taught?

    He is the last prophet of God and the Quran proved that.


    So?

    Now, you are proving your tendency to disagree just for the sake of disagreement.

    I won't comment on what you said because it's clear even for a child that that verse talkd about 3 different people.

    Christ, Elias, and that prophet.

    You are trying to make it appear as the bible is saying somthing which it doesn't, Paul.

    Jesus is God or a prophet, make up your mind.

    Don't worry, you have the time to search it anytime but i want the verse from you not from anyone else to know whether you are claiming somthing which you saw or you are just saying things which you didn't see by yourself.




    Paul, is that a proof now. :D

    Rev 20:15:
    "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (unsaved)

    The idea that Jesus is the only way to God or that only those who have been washed in the blood of Christ are ever to be listed among the saved, has become anathema and even dangerous in our shrinking world."
    Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong. (saved)

    So which one is it? are we saved if we are unbaptized or not?




    That doesn't say anyting about the trinity but what you think of it to be. :)

    That didn't answer my question. Jesus clearly stated that we should only worship "God in heave" but you still insisting to worship Jesus. You answered me with other verses. Are you saying that what you brought contradict with what i posted for you in my question?

    That's the only thing i understand what you answer me by posting other verses instead of explaining for me the one i posted for you.
     
  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    You are going for the little details which might happen to all prophets and ignoring the big picture.

    I was asking for significant similarities which no other one has with him in that way. Anyway, i'll post somthing for you which happened between a muslim and a christian.


    Three Unlikes
    So staying, I reasoned with him: "In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! SECONDLY, according to you - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Mose s did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses! THIRDLY, according to you - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s." I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" "But dominee," I continued: "these are not hard facts, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, shall we?" The dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion.
    Father and Mother
    (1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is lik e Moses!".

    Miraculous Birth
    (2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St.Matthew 1:18".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST.' And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announded to her, Mary reasoned:'.......HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE:......'(Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:

    " O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? "
    The angel says in reply:
    "EVEN SO:
    ALLAH CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH:
    WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN,
    HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE,"
    AND IT IS " (9) (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47).

    It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus.

    (When I compared the Qur'an and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest City, and when I enquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the QUR'ANIC version or the BIBLICAL version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Qur'anic.") In short, I said to the dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhummed?"He replied proudly:"Yes!" I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses."

    Marriage Ties
    (3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

    Jesus Rejected by his People
    (3) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life imposs ible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, ofter two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejeted him. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES."
     
  7. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,497
    Ratings:
    +1,247
    Religion:
    Islam
    "Other-Wordly" Kingdom
    (5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day , and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people. There are instances in the Bible of persons who wer e given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their mesage, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charg e: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE"(John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possessio n of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true?" The dominee answered:"Yes." I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

    No New Laws
    (6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.

    "From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.


    "As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an imposter with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT IAM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: IAM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they al wasy levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed. Is this true?" I asked the dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said:"Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."
    How they Departed
    (7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.(10) Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

    Heavenly Abode
    (8) "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Is this true?" The dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

    http://www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.html
     
  8. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    First when you give a verse of Quran please take the time to find the Tafsir of this Ayat. ayat is the term in arabic for signs. It also means evidences, or verses, or books from Allah, or any miracle Allah performs through his creation as an evidence for the people to believe. The proper context of the verse will be achieved through the tafsir. they use what is authentic. Now the tafsir of the ayat starts from verse 47 and should be included as part of the verses.

    Surah Ghafir 40:
    47 - "And when they will dispute in the Fire, the weak will say to those who were arrogant: "Verily, we followed you, can you then take from us some portion of the Fire?"

    48 - Those who where arrogant will say: "We are all (together) in this (Fire)! Verily, Allah has judged between (His) servants!"

    49 - And those in the Fire will say to the keepers (angels) of Hell: "Call upon your Lord to lighten for us the torment for a day!"

    50 - they will say: "Did there not come to you, your Messengers with (clear) evidences?" they will say: "Yes". They will reply: "Then call (as you like)! And the invocation of the disbeleivers is nothing but in vain!"

    the dispute of the People of Hell

    Allah tells us how the people of Hell will dipute and argue with one another, and Firawn and his people will be among them. the weak, who were the followers, will say to those who were arrogant, who were the leaders and masters:

    Verily, we followed you, meaning we obeyed you and heeded your call to disbelief and misguidance in the world,

    can you then take from us some portion of the fire?
    means can you carry a part of our burden for us?

    Those who were arrogant will say: "we are all together in this (fire)!...
    meaning we will not bear any part of your burden for you our own punishment is enough for us to bear.

    Verily, Allah has judged His servants

    means, He has shared out the punishment among us according to what each of us deserves. This is like the Ayah:
    He will say for each one there is double (torment), but you will know not 7:38

    and those in the fire will say to the keepers of hell: Call upon Your Lord to lighten for us the torment for a day!"

    They know Allah willl not answer them and will ot listen to their prayer, because He said, "Remain you in it with ignominy! And speak you not to Me! 23:108
    So they will ask the keepers of hell, who are like jailers watching over the people of Hell, to pray to Allah to lessen the punishment in the Fire for them if only for one day. but the keepers of Hell will refuse, saying to them,

    Did there not come to you, your Messengers with clear (evidences)?
    meaning, was not the proof established in the world on thelips of the Messengers?

    they will say: "Yes" they will reply: then call as you like!...
    means, you are on your own. we will not pray for you or listen to you; we do not want you to be saved and we have nothing to do with ou. Moreover, we tell you that it is all the same whether you offer supplication or not, because Allah willl not respond and he will not lighten the torment for you.' they will say

    And the invocation of the disbelievers is nothing but in vain
    meaning it will not be accepted or responded to.

    From the Tafsir of ibn kathir Vol 8 (abridged version)

    this particular ayat is talking to the disbelievers in general. So when it says Messenegers or as you translated apostles it is talking about them collectively because Hellfire has all of the the disbeleivers and the disbelievers are the one's who disbelieved in the Messneger. so in your case it would be Muhammed and the Quran for he came after jesus and before you so he is your prophet whether you accept it or not. In the time of Jesus the disobedient Jews of his time. Moses it would be Pharoah and his people. Each to their own. this is a future conversation between the angels who watch hell and those that occupy it.

    But in general the amount of signs or evidences are truly endless. for they are everywhere and displayed in abundance throughout the creation of Allah. the signs of Allah's infinite power and strength and control, and wisdom all constant all eternal. One sign is the Quran. It is a sign of the mercy of Allah and the truth and reality of why we were created and what steps one must take to lead a blessed life in the present and in the hereafter. It guides man to the truth of their one true Lord and tells them how to truly worship Him alone without partner and instructs the mankind through the example by the one who gave us the book. Prophet Muhammed is a sign to mankind to Allah. An unlettered prophet who not only changed the unjust social order of Arabia at that time and elevated an illiterate nation to be the leaders of the known free world but changed and impacted the social order of the globe at that time. a time where the world was in darkness and filled with injustice and oppression. A time where the superpowers of the world usurped the lives of its people for their own personal gains. Allah sent a man to the world to remind them about Him and warn them of the punishment of the grave, the Day of Judgment, and Hellfire for those who disobey and disbelieve in Allah and or disobey His prophet. He established this all under the banner of a comprehensive and complete system of rules for establishing a truely peaceful and just society. Facts that people such as Michael Hart and many other acclaimed historians have shown and illustrated in books like the 100 most influential people of all time who Hart list Muhammed as number one and illustrates why,

    the signs of creation within the creation itself. The infinitely complex structures which we call the human body. Our eyes, our ears, our minds if one truly contemplates on the billions of things going on in our body all automatic, all the time. Look at the kidneys and how it processess and analyses millions of solutions and things taken in by the body cataloguing what is bad and creating something to fight it. Look at the earth and the different ecosystems and millions of factors which not only sustain life but keeps it in constant balance at all times. Look at the number of creation. How many creatures there are on the planet. Look at the stars and the planets and the order of their orbits and the power and beauty of the stars. Look at the size of the creation.

    Look at the signs of life and death how continuous yet none of us has control over it. Look at the signs of the Prophets who came before and gave miracle or signs to their people to proof they were men appointed by Allah to deliver a message to their people and to teach them the guidance of Allah's word. There are signs everywhere and in everything.

    so to make sure you understood the apostles or Messengers it speaks of are all them for the disbelievers are in hellfire collectively.

    the signs are many and they are clear. Who qualifies as a disbeliever. anyone who disobeys Allah, worships anything other then Him or associate anything to Him, and to disobey the ones whom God chose to give his Messege.
     
  9. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    What are you talking about every muslim on the forum tells everyone to stop being disobedient to Allah and obey the Messengers. Accept Islam or this will be your fate.


    The Quran
    Obvious you have not read the quran.

    Are Jews and Hindu's worshipping the one who created or the creation. And are they accepting the people the Creator chose to send His message of guidance to His creation to warn them of the Day of Judgment.

    I would say simply that is a contradiction of ideology. If god is the Creator there can only be one. the Creator cannot be created. Not to mention that what if one god wanted to create it this way and the other thought it was a bad idea. Whenever there is two eventually there would be an arguement. Plus one would get jealous for some people may worship the other more than the other.


    It depends do you want to go to eternal bliss or punishment. People do not have to believe in something in order for it to exist.

    No if you deny any truth or person appointed by Allah they to are a disbeliever.

    Every generation has. allah says that He has sent a messenger to every nation with a clear sign.
     
  10. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    then that is a contradiction to the definition of what is a muslim. You see being a muslim means being one who submits. so if you say you are no muslim and you submit that makes no sense.
    that is fine but reality does not need you to believe in it in order for it to exist. truth is truth.

    Yeah but what does God say about himself in the bible. Give me where verse in the bible where God says he is triune. and if god is triune as you say, then give me a verse where either of his alter ego's claim they are God. Now you say God is triune, so please provide me with the scriptural evidence to support what you are saying.

    You are rambling a little hear clarify a little better with what it being said after you say you are never going on hajj. and i am not seeing the relevance of this statement to the discussion.

    You see this is not where the shirk and kufr of what you believe comes in. We all believe in that part that God created these things in abundance and He is All Powerful, and All Mighty, and All Wise. the issues with you is that your understanding of God is not consistent with the attributes you attribute to Him, and you associate partners with Him in worship. this is where the contention lies.

    You say Allah is triune, Jesus is God in flesh, and the Holy spirit is some how a part of them. Some of you even give this title of Godship to Mary as well. You reject the original message that all the Prophet and Messengers had and came with that there is no God worthy of worship and that is God.

    so when you have these dogmas in your faith that clearly contradict verses from your book of guidance and contradict the things they have attributed to God, such as the All Powerful, All knowing, the Most Just or the Just, the King, etc. etc. this is where the problem lies. We all get the fact you believe God created everything. the Problem is you claim Jesus is God, and God died, and God talks to himself, and God sleeps, and goes to the bathroom and eats and all kinds of other inconsistent concepts which can only be attributed to man. You attribute to the Sustainer, and Originator of the Heavens and earth that He has to become the creation and die inorder to fulfill something, putting conditions on His infinite power, GOD DOES NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. You make claims that God could not have control. Or God is not smart enough to explain it to us clearly himself. God bleeds, God speaks to himself about Himself and prays to himself, and sends Himself to Himself and then protects himself. God was helpless in the arms of His mother as He the Creator who is free of all needs drank from her breast milk(astagfulllah).

    And the claims you make are not consistent with all that is contained in the bible. I know there are some statements you guys all draw from. But what about all the other statements that contradict what you say. they are in your book. I mean it just simple really. We just want you guys to give it to us straight. If you say it is it should be consistent throughout. It should not conflict anywhere.


    Well if you have assurance in that part of your understanding of who God is then give me the verses which assure someone from God's or Jesus's own statements that they are part of a triune god. give me one instance where the disciples understood Jesus as being a part of a triune God. Because if you are assured in that particular part then when you say god is triune you should be assured of that by God from statements of his from the book that gives you your path of guidance.
     
  11. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    How are you debating someone who believes in the triune figure head as you do. I think you to should team up and try to explain this concept called trinity from within the context of the bible. hopefully the same version.
     
  12. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    that is not a similarity that was the norm also Moses wound up in the house of Pharoah and he knew he was a slave but his wife wanted him. the Islamic version and charlton Heston 10 commandment version of the story are different.

    but didn't Jesus say my kingdom is not of this world.

    the people of the Prophets being oppressed and weak not something just to them only.

    Yes but Moses was eventually accepted and became their king. As was Muhammed. Jesus was never accepted by His people.

    Are you saying Jesus had a wife?

    wow, the followers of the prophets being the slaves and the weak of society. Geez that is only what is known to be one of the traits of all the prophets of Islam. Look up the hadith of the conversation between Abu Sufyan and Heraclius it is in Sahih Bukhari. Just another evidence that this is something that was consistent with all the prophets and messengers, not just Moses and Jesus, but Muhammed, Noah, etc. etc.

    Another thing that was consistent with all Prophets and Messengers. they all had miracles they performed so people would believe. Muhammed is the same, Elijah another who had the same powers as Jesus.

    People not understanding, wow that never happens to anyone other then Jesus or Moses. come on can you give a evidence where there is not an example of it in all of our lives. Something that is specific to only them.

    funny the people of Quraish felt the same way about Muhammed.

    so you are saying only stones where cast at them as messengers and prophets. Funny the same thing happed to Muhammed.

    Only if the twelve were his religious companions sworn to follow and protect him. Which they were not.

    Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of the people. Num. 11:16
    Jesus, The Lord appointed other seventy also. Luke 10:1

    What does God moaning have to do with Moses.

    and prophet Muhammed was sent to all mankind as a Messenger.

    When you say God do you mean the Father in the heavens or Jesus? The same for the people of Muhammed their hearts are hard.

     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    No the Injeel is the Gospel given to Jesus. And since your forefathers and religious leaders altered it from the beginning. Established what was canon and what was heresy for their own personal gain. and oppressing anyone who opposed their idea of what the religion of Jesus was without his or the disciples consent. Just the visions of some Pharisee, who by the way Jesus condemned. Why you guys accept the testimony of people Jesus said are cursed. But anyways since the early church fathers changed the books from the original this Injeel you speak of no longer exists and you have what you call Greek Evangelion.

    Jesus did not speak Greek, and the account that is accepted is widely argued against by many scholars on both sides showing proof and evidence that the book is not an actual account and has went through major revisions.

    The Injeel is a specific document. The Injeel is the books given to Jesus. The gospels are something else they are someone's interpretation of the version of the story he heard 5th hand. These may or may not be the books of Jesus's testimony.
     
  14. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,416
    Ratings:
    +656
    You misunderstand completely. The word Injeel is an Arabic attempt to render the Greek word Evangelion. In other words, the Arabic word is derived from, an etymological child of, the Greek. We don't, and never did, call it Injeel because we don't and never did speak Arabic. The Christians who do speak Aramaic, which is the language spoken by Christ, don't and never did call in Injeel either.

    Who said Christ spoke Greek? Nobody, but the Gospels were written in Greek. Christ certainly didn't speak Arabic either, but Aramaic, so how could He have called anything at all by an Arabic word derived from Greek? As for your knowledge of the development of the canon, I knnow both just how utterly nonexistant it is and how ridiculously dogmatically you cling to your propaganda so I have no reason to wish to debate with you. My dog would give me a profitable debate on Scripture than you.

    Then it is a fictional document, for Christ wrote nothing.

    James
     
  15. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    so make valid the claims that you say about Jesus from his or God's testimony.

    Abraham was a Christian? Where is this said in the bible.


    The bible simply means collection but with the word Holy in front of it, it is a Holy collection of all of Gods Word to man.

    The gospel is in the bible throughout it, no bible = no gospel.

    How is it the literal word of God when it was not directly given but inspired. If it is the word of god, why does it not mention that it is. why are there so many mistakes in it. Is the literal word of God flawed. Can the literal word of God be changed. Which version of the literal word is really the literal word for they all cannot be the literal word.

    It contradicts what? The Quran contradicts the bible? Is that what you are saying? Why would it suprise you when the bible contradicts itself. And it seems you are also implying that they are they same. When they are not.

    It's obvious you guys changed the books given to the Prophets so Allah sent a book to a man directly confirming what was before without the errors and additions.

    How early are you talking. What early Christian writings.

    Maybe because it never happened as Allah says in the Quran they crucified him not and killed him not. You do not have the accounts of the eyewitness accounts. The oldest manuscripts of Luke is a copy of a copy. and the two copies they have are different.
     
  16. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    You are misunderstanding me. The Injeel is the gospel given to Jesus. The original one. Now you guys have a set of gospels you have which may or may not be the injeel that is a issue I will let you decide amonst yourselves.. The injeel as I told you is something specific. It is like an i.d. Your I.D. is your I.D. The injeel is not an arabic word for Evangelion. it is the name of a book with a complete set of religious rules and principles for the Jews given by their Messenger Jesus from the Creator of the Heavens and earth affirming what they were given in the original books given to Moses. Again it is a word that describes a specific set of books given to one of Allah's messenegers.


    You do when you say the Gospels are God's or Christs word. Depending if you are a triune believer or not. As you said they were written in Greek.

    You have no reason because you know it is true. so go and talk with your dog then its all good. Propaganda, you are funny.


    His Gospel is His gospel whether he wrote it or not it was given to him by Allah. Muhammed wrote nothing yet we have the Quran because someone preserved what was given. and your church fathers at the councils probably took the document that was true and replaced it with something that was more contured to keep many of their pagan ideologies, and festivals. Can't leave your roots which is why many of the roman pagan ideologies and mythologies were directly incorporated into the religion. Which is why the story of Mithras is strikingly very similar to the Story of jesus, as is Osiris the Egyptian sun God.
     
  17. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,416
    Ratings:
    +656
    You asked why we didn't call it the Injeel, not why we didn't use the fictional document you refer to by that name.

    I say nothing of the kind, nor have I ever done so (well not since leaving Protestantism anyway, which was long before I came here). Why assume I believe something that I do not? Just because it makes your argument easier?

    Rubbish. I know it's false, but I also know that you won't engage with any evidence that is contrary to your propaganda. Witness the debate on the 'Gospel' of Barnabas. You completely refused to provide any evidence for its authenticity or to even try to answer my evidence for it being a forgery. Debate with you, therefore, is more futile than debating my dog. He might not answer or understand but at least he'll listen, which you patently do not. Unless, of course, you're now willing to explain how come the author of the 'Gospel' of Barnabas managed to simultaneously be a 1st century Jew and an ignorant Renaissance westerner, in all probability from Spain?

    His Gospel is indeed His Gopel and your book contradicts it. There never was a council at which the canon was decided so there was no opportunity for the Fathers to do what you suggest and neither Mithraism (most of what we know of it is post-Christian anyway) or the story of Osiris is remotely similar to Christianity. You've been reading that anti-Catholic propaganda again, haven't you. How about trying a real history text, or better yet why not try reading the original sources themselves?

    James
     
  18. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,306
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Muslim
    No I did not. Truth may have I was stating how the Injeel and the Gospels are in no way the same. For one is what is given to the Messeneger and the other is man's creation through alteration.


    maybe if you have read what my whole statement when I said depening on if you are a believer in the triune you would have answered your own statement.


    How? What is your evidence?

    You have given none.

    Then as I said go and talk to your dog maybe he will teach you something.

    Have you even read it.

    Where? so does the bible?
    Whatever you say.

    I read what your scholars say about your faith and I listen to the argueing and debating amongst yourselves as to what is true and not true and what is the true interpretation. Wow, You being Christian are going to tell me about reading original sources. that's rich. You guys do not even have the concept of original within your religion.
     
Loading...