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Signs from Apostles of allah, what are they?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by *Paul*, Jan 29, 2007.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Jesus never met Paul. Paul just claim that he saw a vision which appear to be so vague and confusing based on the wording of Paul himself.

    Please read in here about this issue:
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20033


    Does that mean all current christians are apostels of God the same as Moses, david, etc were?
     
  2. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    It is about Prohet Mohammed. Arabs are the brethren of Jews. Also the verse later on says "and I shall put my words in his mouth" this is the Quran which was a verbal revelation.




    Why?

    The word of Jesus is to all people or just only to his disciples and the rest have nothing to do with it "including you".

    Oh, i got it now, maybe because Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but not to all human beings.





    Simply because they are almost identical, that verse in the Holy Bible and the Quranic verses.



    Yes.



    Did Jesus said i'm the only true God? No.

    Did Jesus said i'm God? No.

    Did Jesus accepted from his disciples even to call him "good master"? Simply it's No No No.

    That's Jesus speaking in God's name.




    The same thing happened to Mohammed. So?

    Prophet Mohammed of course started his message with his vicinity as the history books show then after that to all people around him.




    The same thing with Mohammed and his desciples.





    What does this have to do with the verse i mentioned?



    To Jesus followers and to Mohammed. Please don't make this as Jesus followers against Mohammed followers because both of them were preaching the very same thing and they both asked people to believe in one God.

    We are in the same boat bro. :)
     
  3. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Do you have to jump to another Chapter to prove that. ;)

    Anyway, I thought Christians say that Jesus is God. God can do nothing out of himself?



    Again, this is not Jesus against Mohammed because simply all prophets speak nothing but in God's name.

    You are right, thanks for enlightening me and may the Lord reward you Paul. We are getting along quite great, i tell you about things which you couldn't understand in the Quran and you do the same when i don't understand specific things in the bible. :)

    Which one of them?

    David or Jesus?

    David is God's begotten son in Psalms 2:7.
     
  4. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  5. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  6. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  7. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Why it doesn't say out of the inner part of the jews or sons of Israel?

    The bible is full of things about sons of Israel except in this case, why is that?

    Mohammed is from the sons of Ishamel so he is from their brethren. If not, can you please tell me how Moses is like Jesus?

    My prove that Mohammed is like Moses but Jesus Christ is unlike Moses.

    Please read the first post in this thread.
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19750

    This is my prove that Mohammed is like Moses. If you claim that it's not about Mohammed so show me how Jesus is like Moses.



    Wait a second, i thought that Jesus is the Messiah !!!

    Was there two persons out there?



    Fulfillment.

    We all believe in Jesus, that he was a true prophet of God and that he will come again before the judgement day.

    Explain for me this please.

    and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    God can do nothing?

    Also please explain these verses for me:

    “ Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” (Matthew 4:10 AV), “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24 Av). As we see, Jesus (Jehoshua) said all worship should be directed to his father.

    Wow Paul, i'm truly happy because you are giving it a time of yours and effort to contribute in here and share with me your deep and true faith. :)

    Just i would like to ask more in this issue of you don't mind.

    Did Jesus in the whole bible ever asked people to call him God or good God?


    Was Jesus feeling ok with offering his body for the sins of the world?
     
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  8. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I'm confused in here. Jesus was a man or God?

    Why if he was God, he said that he can do nothing out of himself?


    Amen. :)

    This can be said for David too because he is the begotten son of God too, isn't it?

    Waiting for your reply also on my post # 36 so we don't go far from the original discussion. :)
     
  9. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    So why to mention him?

    We are talking about prophet Mohammed, the last prophet.

    I know, there are false prophets but those false prophets contacted no spirit but only their ego and the falsehood in their mind.

    Prophet Mohammed didn't deny the gospel. If he did so, show me where?

    Jesus didn't die but it apppeared to them as he died. The one who died is someone who looks like Jesus but not Jesus himself. (this will drag us to a new thread if you want, maybe one-on-one).

    Before i go into that, you say that the verses you mentioned is after his resurection, right?

    Was he a soul back then or in a normal body?

    Both of them are there. :)

    Did Jesus said so, or someone else?

    Jesus never mentioned in the whole bible, not even once, that he will die for the sins of the world.

    Please Paul, don't judge me.

    Dear Paul, according to christianity, Jesus is God but Moses is a man. How on earth can God be like a man?

    Please don't guess if you can't back your claim up because we only deal in here with proofs.

    Do you have any proof that it was as you described or it's just another guess of yours?

    No, he didn't tell he came instead of Jesus. Please please please try to understand that we believe in Jesus but another prophet came after him called Mohammed, the last prophet.

    If you know so no need to tell.

    Jesus said so?

    OK, let's find out whether it was from God or not as long as you believe he indeed recieved a revelation.

    We can see in (John 1:20-21):

    1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
    1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
    and:
    1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet.

    Where is that prophet, Paul?

    If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE",

    So, as you can see, Christ is not that prophet according to the bible.

    You believe in Jesus, isn't it, what did Jesus said?

    "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". (HOLY BIBLE) John 16:7

    " And remember, 'Isa, the son of Maryam, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery! " (Holy Quran) surah saf 16:6

    Please, just show me where in the Quran does it say so as i'm using the bible to show you what i'm talking about.


    I agree with you, may God save us and his servants from these false doctrines of devils.

    But, do you think that the Quran is the work of the devil?

    You don't have to rush, if it was the truth, then God will lead you to it if your heart was true. :)

     
  11. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  12. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  13. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  14. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  15. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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    At Moses birth, the Pharaoh wanted all Hebrew boys killed. Exodus 1:15-16
    At Christ’s birth, Herod wanted all Hebrew children killed. Matthew 2:16

    Moses, a Hebrew, was actually a prince and heir to Egypt. Acts 7:21-22; ... Hebrews 11:24; Exodus 2:10
    Christ, a carpenter’s son, was actually heir of all things. Hebrews 1:2; Philippians 2:6-2:8

    Moses lay down his position on the throne of Egypt, seeing their burdens.. Hebrews 11:24-25
    Jesus, seeing His people’s oppression, became a servant in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:6-8

    Moses was rejected when he came unto his brethren, saying who made you a ruler and a judge over us. Exodus 2:11-14; Acts 7:23-27
    Jesus was rejected as He came unto His people and was accused of using the power of the devil. Matthew 27:22; ... Matthew 12:24

    After his rejection, Moses took a Gentile Bride. Exodus 2:15-16; Exodus 2:21-22
    Christ is now gathering together His mostly Gentile Bride of Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2

    Moses went out to his brethren and he looked on their burdens. Ex. 2:11 ...ye make them rest from their burdens. Ex. 5:5
    Jesus: Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest... Matt.11:28

    Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind. Ex. 14:21
    What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the seas obey Him? Matt. 8:27

    Israel didn’t understand why when the king of Egypt died, that their bondage being increased, asked Why God?, Exodus 2:23
    His disciples didn’t understand why their Messiah had to go to the cross. The church age a mystery. Matthew 16:21-23; John 19:10-11; Acts 1:3-7

    How long shall this man be a snare unto us?, Ex. 10:7
    A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, 1 Pet. 2:8

    They be almost ready to stone me, Ex.17:4
    Then took they up stones to cast at Him, John 8:59

    Moses, took twelve men of you. Deut. 1:23
    Jesus, And he ordained twelve, that they might be with Him. Mark 3:13,14

    Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of the people. Num. 11:16
    Jesus, The Lord appointed other seventy also. Luke 10:1

    God heard their groaning, and remembered His covenant with Abraham. Exodus 2:24-25
    God will hear the cry of Israel, and remember His covenant with Abraham. Romans 11:27

    The Lord sends His deliverer, Moses to set His people free from Egyptian bondage. Exodus 3:7-10
    The Lord will send Himself, to deliver Sirael after the Tribulation. Romans 11:26-28

    The Lord sent judgment upon Egypt, Moses, the only one worthy, “broke the seals” of judgment on Egypt. Exodus 7:2-5
    Christ will be the only One worthy to open the seals of judgment on the antichrist. Revelation 5:6-9

    The Pharaoh’s heart was hardened with the judgments of God on Egypt, Exodus 7:10-13
    The world’s heart will be hardened with the judgments of God on the world. Revelation 16:9-11

    Through judgment, Israel is delivered out of Egypt. Exodus 14:8-14
    Through judgment, Israel will be delivered out of the Tribulation. Romans 11:25-29

    When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said... we don't know what has happened to him." Ex.32:1
    Where is the promise of His coming?, 2 Pet 3:3,4

    Moses, His servant, Ps.105:26... Jesus, My Servant, Matt. 12:18

    Moses, The prophet, Deut.18:15-19... Jesus, The Prophet, John 6:14, Luke 7:16

    Moses, Priest, Ps.99:6... Jesus, Priest....Heb. 7:24

    Moses, King, Deut.33:4,5... Jesus, King....Acts 17:7

    Moses, Shepherd....Ex. 3:1... Jesus, Shepherd, John 10:11,14

    Moses, Mediator, Ex. 33:8,9... Jesus, Mediator....1 Tim. 2:5

    Moses, Intercessor....Num. 21:7... Jesus, Intercessor, Rom. 8:34

    Moses, Judge, Ex. 18:13... Jesus, Judge, John 5:27, Mat.25:31-46

    For more information see :
    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/exodus1b.htm

    This is a well known fact and interpretation amongst Christians.
     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Dear Paul, thanks again for your amazing posts and i'll come back to respond to them as soon as possible because i have some exams these days. Just to let you know, i like that you stand and defend your faith the way you understand it, and i learnt from you alot of things about Christianity in this discussion more than anytime. Only few people can stay and discuss these issues openely the way you do. Thanks :)

    I'll see you soon "God willing".
     
  17. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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    And may I wish you every success in your exams and congratulate you on your attitude in this thread. Thank you for your kind words.

    Don't feel pressured to respond to this thread further if you don't wish to as i'm sure there are plenty of other threads going that you may want to post on and it is easy to lose your flow if you stay away from a thread for a few days.

    I look forward to hearing from you again if the Lord tarries.

    :highfive:
     
  18. fullyveiled muslimah

    fullyveiled muslimah Evil incarnate!

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    I don't havea lot of time to post and don't know when I will be back, but the posts of likeness between Jesus and Moses are lovely. However, these same likenesses can be said for Muhammad as well. I think that is an issue for thought. Muhammad is very much like Moses in alot of respects. I think it would do well for Truth to list them, or perhaps you would like to find them and list them here yourself Paul.

    I am happy about the attitude taken in this thread, and look forward to responding further if possible.
     
  19. des

    des Active Member

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    I'm not Muslim (and maybe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing) but I have been reading "No god but God" by Reza Aslan. He has talked about "signs" in Islam and in the Arab world at that time in comparison to signs to the ancient Israelis and later to those following Jesus.

    In Moses day, a sign was essentially "magic'-- for instance turning a staff into a snake. Elijah (I think) also had a contest with God (Yahweh) burning something. Yahweh won hands down over the pagan god.

    In Jesus day it was healing and exorcism.

    But in Mohammed's day it was language. The language in the Quaran was considered the most noble, pure, and beautiful. In fact, at one point Mohammed challenges the pagans to prove their gods by coming up with poetry like that which he claimed came from Allah.


    (BTW, there are corrallaries in our cultures. Black ministers are considered especially capable and spiritual if they are the most poetic. This was part of the power of Martin Luther King's initial impact. I think there is even a term for this in the Black community. This was not in Aslan's book.)

    Anyway, I think that Aslan's views are a great little piece of perspective for Westerners and non-Muslims.

    --des
     
  20. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Hi thereeeeee, i'm back finally after finishing my exams i have the chance now to post and discuss again in RF. :)

    Ok, let me be clear on somthing first. Do you believe that Ishamael is the son of Abraham or not?

    You said so, see here.

    You are mixing verses in here and that will make our task harder.

    In the verses you mentioned above first in Isa 43. Who is the one talking?

    I believe he was God unless you think otherwise.

    To Israel the Lord says: I am thy God; I will gather thy seed; beside me there is no Savior; ye are my witnesses.
    1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have aredeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.


    So? What do you want to prove in here?

    This is God talking not Jesus !!!

    Well, what i know so far through the scriptures that Jesus was just a man and he never claimed to be God. If you want to believe that he was God so that's ok with me but you didn't bring a single proof that Jesus said he was God.

    Hmmmm, maybe he was a humble God? :rolleyes:

    It doesn't say so in that verse. That's what YOU say so.

    The trinity is somthing else. No one ever could prove it till now, it's just a matter of belief and what the Church decided to add to the system belief which wasn't originally there in the scriptures. There is no mention for the trinity in the scriptures.

    Can you prove that?

    All what i can see till now is God asking you to worship him but Jesus didn't. So simple and clear.

    Excatly, the scriptures which talk about him as a prophet but not God. Please Paul, you are trying to explain somthing which doesn't exist in your scriptures, things like that would be like ....

    Got what i mean?


    The oldest forms of Christianity do not support the 'born again' version of salvation.

    Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him?

    What happens to people who died before Jesus came?

    What happens to those who never hear this message?


    What about innocent children who die although their parents are not Christian?



    Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?



    And what about Jesus?



    Jesus did not even carry the cross -- Simon Cyre'ne, a passerby did! [Mk 15:21]



    Jesus of the Bible was NOT on the cross for longer than six (6) hours -- NOT three days -- (from the 3rd to the 9th hour) [Mk 15:25 & 15:33]



    Jesus of the Bible did not spend three days and nights in the tomb -- Friday night - until Sunday before dawn -- is not 3 days and nights!



    Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'


    ("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani? - My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?") [Mk 15:34]



    So what do you think?



     
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