Signs from Apostles of allah, what are they?

[*Paul*]

F.V.M, I am simply asking what the clear signs are that allah has given that He alone is to be worshipped and why they are such clear cut signs as to leave those who are in hell without hope for mercy or reprieve when in Islam some people do only go to hell temporarily. It is surely a matter of great importance and worth exploring. Someone has said every nation has had it's messenger from allah. Whose is the english? What clear signs were we given that allah must be worshiped as creator and not Brahma? Do you understand my questioning here, reading moududis explanation of the verse in the koran made me wonder, i think it is the right interpretation and is the plain sense from the text which is usually the correct one.

I have obviously annoyed you and it seems as though you are begrudgingly discussing this with me and have lost all patience with me. I understand why this is and if it is any consolation I have learned more about islam from you than anyone else. I am more interested in discussion on this subject than debate, i am not saying that you are right or wrong if you notice i am simply asking how it is that the signs are said to be so clear as to deny those who reject them any chance of mercy while suffering the torments of hell, even though it is possible in Islam for people to be released from hellfire. And what exactly are these signs?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Paul I know it seemed my post was angry. I am not angry with you at all, but am a little frustrated nonetheless. You are quite intelligent. More intelligent that many other christians I have had the pleasure of discussing Islam with. Yet it seems that small ideas go over you i.e, Allah is the God of Abraham and so on not a different God. You say you are seeking truth. Had you said that to me six months ago I would have thought you were being dishonest, but I believe you now more than ever. You are trying to be a good christian which I admire although I know you aren't seeking my admiration. You stand for what you believe to be true, and wish more than anything else to gain the pleasure of God and nearness to Him. You might cringe at this next statement, but I see in you the qualities of a believer.

This is where I get frustrated at Paul. You are quite dilligent in your studies and persistent in your questioning which is a good thing. Yet, if you cannot get past this whole Allah is not God thing we can't move forward. If Allah is not God the line of questioning is moot. Even though you have said that to me on countless occasions (well maybe not countless) I don't think you really believe that. Call me crazy, I may be right or I may be wrong. But I don't think you honestly believe what you say because if you did you would not concern yourself with what we believe. You would only concern yourself with how to best approach us to guide us if anything.

You have given me reasons to dislike you but I don't. Far from that, my heart is softened towards you more than any other non-muslim I have encountered on a forum. Inexplicably I really like you because I see goodness in you, and a resolve to submit to God regardless of the naysayers or the ramifications.

So I'm sorry if I come to harshly at you. Really I do not mean offense. Forgive me for anything I may have said that caused you any ill feelings, or caused any offense to you at all. May we continue?

 

[TashaN]

Maybe because we don't speak Arabic and so never called it that? Injil is nothing more than an Arabised version of the Greek Evangelion, which is still what the Greeks call a Gospel

My point still exist because i'm aware that Injil is the Gospel. So why not to follow the Gospel alone?

 

[TashaN]

I truly appreciate the work you have put in to this and your sincerity as I do the lenght of time F.V.M put into her post, i assure you I have read it and considered what you have both written, i keep getting into debates with muslims and we strongly disagree; but i don't hate any of you, i don't even dislike any of you, i have love and compassion in my heart for you all so i want you to know (if you believe me) that i do not write from a position of maelevolence or spite, but out of Zeal for the Truth.

"God willing", we will help each other to get to the truth as much as we can. Amen.

This is where i can not be found guilty friend (sorry i know you can't take me as a friend)

Why can't we be friends, my friend?

Any specific reason?

I have examined the doctrines i hold, i believe no doctrine simply because I am told to. When i was first born again during that first year there were things that as i Christian I was expected to believe; however I refused to beleiev anything (and still do) that i had no reason to believe out of the bible. Everthing has been checked to see if that is what God says if it can be verified in the bible. I remember asking my Dad about the Jesus being God for example ( i believed it but didn't really understand why or how) and the answer he gave me was very unsatisfactory so I searched the scriptures and studied constantly praying to God that I would not be decieved on my own with no one to help but God this i have done throughout my faith. I listen to teachers but check if what they are saying is in fact true.

That's somthing great which only brave people can do and i congratulate you for that.

I don't believe that i'm afraid.

So you mean, God of Abraham and Jesus and Moses, etc is not your God?

Or you just don't see how my God and your God are the same one?

Rom 4v2-5: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And he did:
Gen 18v1-2: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Are you making the point that these verses from the bible are the same as the veres in the Quran?

I say become a Christian and be justifed as Abraham was.

Abraham was a christian?

Ex 3v6: Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Ex 6v2-3: And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Lev 26v42: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Someone is missing here

Isma'il?

Gen 22v2: And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac

So Abraham has only one son? are you sure?

Anyway, the bible mentioned 8 sons for Abraham and if we really went through this, we would need an entire thread for it. I hope you can discuss it with me if you are interested in separate thread which i already wrote before. You can find it in this link below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21362

The bible simply means collection but with the word Holy in front of it, it is a Holy collection of all of Gods Word to man.

Why not to take only the words of God to Jesus?

Who gave the authority to others to reciece revelation from God?

It's well known amongest Christians that the bible is a collection of the Gospel revealed to Jesus and also several letters and messages between men.

no bible = no gospel.

Why not to depend on the gospel?

I follow the literal word of God, the koran came after the bible, and contradicts it in many places.

The NT came after the OT and contradict it in many places.

So who's changing what?

I'll have to ask the same question.

Not only that but the gospel is confirmed by early christian writings too.

So you mean there were christians living before the collection of the bible?

The death and ressurection of Jesus is not in the koran but denied and that 600-700 years after it happened with no eyewitness accounts.

None of the deciples saw Jesus Christ crucified on the cross but they just heard so.

I told you, if we talked about this, we will have to go for many threads but only in the one at hand. So you want to go for the details of things in the bible and the Quran or you want to concentrate in the signs of the Quran and the similarities we have?

 

[*Paul*]

You say you are seeking truth.

I have never said that to my knowledge and i really hope i haven't to do so would be a denial of what has been revealed to me. I know that that is not what i would have meant. I just want you to know that i have full confidence in the things i believe and not leave the wrong impression.

You have given me reasons to dislike you but I don't. Far from that, my heart is softened towards you more than any other non-muslim I have encountered on a forum. Inexplicably I really like you because I see goodness in you, and a resolve to submit to God regardless of the naysayers or the ramifications.

So I'm sorry if I come to harshly at you. Really I do not mean offense. Forgive me for anything I may have said that caused you any ill feelings, or caused any offense to you at all. May we continue?

As always there is no offense, it takes insults of the highest level to offend me usually because my heart is shielded by my mind first, things have to get through that gate before they get a place where they can either hurt me or please me. So i can usually see where you are coming from and i absolutley accept that i have given you reasons to dislike me. We spend a fair bit of time apologising to each other don't we. I asked questions in the post you responded to would you mind addressing them please? And if you can answer my question in the shi'ite dir thread that would be really helpful as i was shocked to read that.

 

[*Paul*]

I told you, if we talked about this, we will have to go for many threads but only in the one at hand. So you want to go for the details of things in the bible and the Quran or you want to concentrate in the signs of the Quran and the similarities we have?

I could answer every one of your questions here but i can't be bothered today as they will only lead to more questions and so on till either the thread is derailed or stopped to save any one any offense. You are doubtess aware already that Jesus spoke to Mary while he was on the cross but i'm sure you have a ready made answer. See i nearly started answering them all. This is off topic. I am asking questions about this Koran verse and what it means, i haven't exactly had them answered as yet. What signs would an english person with no specific religion have that would cause her to believe over all other religions that there is no Ilah but allah and mohammed is his prophet? And what messenger or apostle have they had that would leave them without excuse. Sure they've heard of Islam and they see the muslims in their clothing going to prayers and walking around being very modest but so do Hindus. Muslims believe in one God but so do Jews and Christians. Will everyone that hasn't heard of Islam escape hellfire? If so then why spread it at all?

 

[TashaN]

I could answer every one of your questions here but i can't be bothered today as they will only lead to more questions and so on till either the thread is derailed or stopped to save any one any offense.

I'll always be around when you want to talk about it in the future "God willing".

You are doubtess aware already that Jesus spoke to Mary while he was on the cross but i'm sure you have a ready made answer.

Sorry, can you please elaborate in here.

See i nearly started answering them all. This is off topic.

Fair enough, I agree with you.

I am asking questions about this Koran verse and what it means, i haven't exactly had them answered as yet.

I'll assume that my pervious posts didn't help. Let us start all over again then.

First of all, you have to know that none of us in here is a scholar in Islam even though some of us are trying or willing to be in the future "God willing", so i don't think you will get a perfect answer for all your questions but we are just trying our best to tell you what do we understand but of course Allah only knows.

I'll give you an example. Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" once said about a dream of his when two angels came into that dream and one of them gave him an example which is that, Mohammed and his followers are like a King who has a land then built a house there and a big table inside that house, then sending a messenger to ask people over to come and eat from that great food on the table, so as you know, there is those who will accept the invitation and those who refuse, so Allah is the King, and that land is Islam, and who so ever enter to Islam will enter to Paradise, and who so ever enter to Paradise will eat from it. (End of the explaination of the hadith)

So, in the Quran, Allah mentioned many Messengers and Prophets and each one of them was sent to ceratin people to remind them of their lord, one God. Then it's their choice whether to believe in God or not.

As for people of the book (i.e. Jews and Christians), it's in their scriptures and it's well known that a prophet will would come after Jesus Christ "according to the bible".

Please read carfully this thread: Mohamed (PBUH) in the bible

Also, Did all Prophets including Jesus prayed to God the same as Muslism pray now?

Nevertheless, in general, as we said before, for every single nation God sent prophets to wran from hellfire and guide them to all the truth and believe in one God "Tawheedin arabic", also, to tell them about the next prophet who shall come unto them. After that, they have no excuse because it's in their own scriptures from a prophet whom they trust, a prophet who was sent to them and they believed in him and follow him and his teaching. Nevertheless, it's not right for them to follow some of their prophet's teaching and ignore others, don't you think so?

If they didn't follow all what their prophet said so that's their own mistake and shortcoming but not Allah's fault, because they decided not to follow what their prophet teach as a whole without any change.

God doesn't need blood atonement to be worshipped fully but we only have to fully obey and worship him alone without any partner beside him in order to be saved. And Jesus said to Him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone".

To know the whole story you better start with Prophet Abraham all the way down till we reach to prophet Mohammed because that's an essential part in our discussion because the verse which you did post stated that the signs came with prophets so we must know what did the prophes came with.

You can also join in the The Christian Muslim Dialogue if you are interested.

What signs would an english person with no specific religion have that would cause her to believe over all other religions that there is no Ilah but allah and mohammed is his prophet? And what messenger or apostle have they had that would leave them without excuse. Sure they've heard of Islam and they see the muslims in their clothing going to prayers and walking around being very modest but so do Hindus. Muslims believe in one God but so do Jews and Christians. Will everyone that hasn't heard of Islam escape hellfire? If so then why spread it at all?

Allah is just and he only will punish those who rejected the message but those who didn't hear about Islam will have a special deal in the day of judgement and they might be tested but of course, Allah knows best. Regarding an ordinary man and how he will be able to know about Islam if it was the truth or not and how they will be able to accept it, you can check the experince of a muslim brother and muslim sister in this forum and how they have been guided to Islam and one of them is the muslim sister who is sharing with us her opnions in this thread, FVM.

Your Journey to Islam; Fullyveiled Muslimah, Mujahid Mohammed...

Also, check how this muslim brother in this short clip changed his life from Paganism to Islam.

If i ever did any mistake so it's from my own shortcoming and lack of deep knowledge and if i was right so it's because of the help and guidance of Allah.

I hope that i helped you this time, and if you have more questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Peace and blessing,

Peace be with you and upon you,

TT

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

i do not write from a position of maelevolence or spite, but out of Zeal for the Truth.

This was stated by you earlier in this thread. Perhaps I misread it. It happens.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Your question you asked is a very in depth one that requires an indepth answer. It is being answered slowly, because as Truth stated since the verses refer to earlier prophets and what they came with it is essential to know what that was, and how it relates to us now. My whole point will be to summerize these signs and show a direct correlation between the teachings of the previous prophets and Muhammad. This is why I have gone through a little of the history of Islam as a broadly scoped religion, so that I can demostrate how that very broad idea has culminated into the Islam you see today.

Bear with me in this because it takes me a while to formulate my thoughts effectively so that I won't get off track.

 

[*Paul*]

I'll always be around when you want to talk about it in the future "God willing".

Sorry, can you please elaborate in here.

I haven't read your post fully but just to help you out on this point but lets not make this a topic of discussion.....for now

Jesus's mother, His aunt two female disciples and the apostle who lay in His bosom saw Him & both His mother and John spoke to Him whilst He hung from the cross:

Jn 19v25-28: Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Also two different disciples took His body down and buried after their manner:
Jn 19v38-40: And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

 

[TashaN]

I haven't read your post fully but just to help you out on this point but lets not make this a topic of discussion.....for now

Jesus's mother, His aunt two female disciples and the apostle who lay in His bosom saw Him & both His mother and John spoke to Him whilst He hung from the cross:

Jn 19v25-28: Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Also two different disciples took His body down and buried after their manner:
Jn 19v38-40: And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess if i commented on this we will never end talking about it so i'll save to some other time because i'm interested to continue the topic at hand about the signs of the prophets first then we might go for other topics.

 

[*Paul*]

So, in the Quran, Allah mentioned many Messengers and Prophets and each one of them was sent to ceratin people to remind them of their lord, one God. Then it's their choice whether to believe in God or not.

What messengers have been sent to England though for example let alone other countries? I can't see any reason why the message of Islam is any more clear than that of the Hare Krishnas in the u.k. To the average person here in england which is mostly secular or nominaly christian there is no reason to adapt islam over any other religion there is no clear messenger certainly none speaking today.

As for people of the book (i.e. Jews and Christians), it's in their scriptures and it's well known that a prophet will would come after Jesus Christ "according to the bible".

Please read carfully this thread: Mohamed (PBUH) in the bible

This is only "well known" to muslims, and is no proof to the Saturday or Sunday people. What is well known to Christians is that many decievers will come and lead many astray, there is no reason for us to believe that mohammed was not one such deciever. I though i had posted on the above thread as i have discussed it twice before, once was with fully veiled muslimah on another site. Needless to say yours is not the Christian understanding of the texts involved.

Also, Did all Prophets including Jesus prayed to God the same as Muslism pray now?

The simple answer to this is that mohammed considered Moses a prophet and carried over some of the practices into his new religion also having a better chance of bringing over christians and jews with him. I guess i didn't need to say that.

Nevertheless, in general, as we said before, for every single nation God sent prophets to wran from hellfire and guide them to all the truth and believe in one God "Tawheedin arabic", also, to tell them about the next prophet who shall come unto them. After that, they have no excuse because it's in their own scriptures from a prophet whom they trust, a prophet who was sent to them and they believed in him and follow him and his teaching. Nevertheless, it's not right for them to follow some of their prophet's teaching and ignore others, don't you think so?

Well there was no muslim prophet sent to england that i'm aware of, and if you say it is in my scriptures, when i show you the things written therein you will tell me it got corrupted and so can't be trusted as the koran says. So we have no excuse because a "corrupted text" told us to believe our "prophet" and it also tells us to look for one after Him?????

If they didn't follow all what their prophet said so that's their own mistake and shortcoming but not Allah's fault, because they decided not to follow what their prophet teach as a whole without any change.

As a whole is important. And involves a lot more than Matthew Mark Luke and John.

To know the whole story you better start with Prophet Abraham all the way down till we reach to prophet Mohammed because that's an essential part in our discussion because the verse which you did post stated that the signs came with prophets so we must know what did the prophes came with.

But it's 1400 hundred years since Mohammed was died. Why should he be believed now?

You can also join in the The Christian Muslim Dialogue if you are interested.

There are no Christians on that thread. And i really shouldn't.

Allah is just and he only will punish those who rejected the message but those who didn't hear about Islam will have a special deal in the day of judgement and they might be tested but of course, Allah knows best.

So wouldn't it be a human kindness not to spread the message so that everyone gets a "special deal on Judgement day".

Regarding an ordinary man and how he will be able to know about Islam if it was the truth or not and how they will be able to accept it, you can check the experince of a muslim brother and muslim sister in this forum and how they have been guided to Islam and one of them is the muslim sister who is sharing with us her opnions in this thread, FVM.
Your Journey to Islam; Fullyveiled Muslimah, Mujahid Mohammed...

I had a private discussion with F.V.M about this before and was most intrigued, i felt however that she had rejected a false idea about what Christians believe.

Also, check how this muslim brother in this short clip changed his life from Paganism to Islam.

I could provide with many reverse testimonies, but for the majority of people who do not live in muslim countries Islam means nothing because they have had no clear message or messenger.

I hope that i helped you this time, and if you have more questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Peace and blessing,

Peace be with you and upon you,

TT

I feel that perhaps we are getting closer to an answer and i look forward to FVMs thought out response. One problem is that discussions like this just raise more and more questions and it is hard to stay on topic, particularly when you feel like you want to defend your faith. I am finding this aspect quite difficult and i thank you for the effort you have made to stay on topic.

Thnaks for your politeness and unaggressive manor it goes a long way.

We will continue soon no doubt if the Lord tarries, may Your eyes be opened before that day. ( I am wishing a good thing for you not being confrontational here )

 

[TashaN]

What messengers have been sent to England though for example let alone other countries? I can't see any reason why the message of Islam is any more clear than that of the Hare Krishnas in the u.k. To the average person here in england which is mostly secular or nominaly christian there is no reason to adapt islam over any other religion there is no clear messenger certainly none speaking today.

All those prophets were sent to humanity before Mohammed "peace be upon him" and prophet Mohammed was the last one, but the difference is that the pervious prophets were sent to a specific people in a specific time with a specific message unlike prophet Mohammed who was sent to all human beings as whole till the day of judgement. Allah won't send a prophet to each village and house in your country dear Paul. He already sent prophet Mohammed.

This is only "well known" to muslims, and is no proof to the Saturday or Sunday people. What is well known to Christians is that many decievers will come and lead many astray, there is no reason for us to believe that mohammed was not one such deciever.

Why can't he be the one?

I'll assume that you are aware of this verse:

1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
and:
1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet.

If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE" and all reffer to the comforter which is the holy spirit. So, this is spirit "the comforter" is a prophet and the prove is:

The same John, who is supposed to have authored the Gospel bearing his name, also penned three more Epistles which are also part of the Christian Bible. Amazingly he has used the same terminology of "Holy Spirit" for "Holy Prophet."

Beloved, believe not every Spirit, but try the Spirits whether they

are of God; because many false Prophets are gone out into the World.
(HOLY BIBLE) 1 John 4:1

Give me one reason which make you believe that Mohammed is a deciever.

Let us analyze this, for instance, i have all the right to say that there is no prophet after Mohammed because he said so but you have no reason to deny that a prophet might come after Jesus Christ.

In order to deny anyone who claim to be "that prophet", so you must prove that he didn't fulfill the prophicies in the bible which described him.

Therefore, we must go and analyze whether he is the one or not "based on the bible" which described a prophet who shall come after Jesus according to the OT and NT.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18

many Christians would say this is God is telling Moses that he will send Jesus and also Muslims will say he is Mohamed but how we can know which one of them is this prophet.

first of all, the one mentioned in this verse supposed to fulfill 4 criterias according to the verse:

1- God will raise this prophet from thier brethren (the Jews).
2- Like unto Moses ( like Moses ).
3- God will put his words in his mouth.
4- this prophet shall speak unto them all that God shall command him.

Now, if you can't prove for me that Mohammed can't be the one according to these 4 criterias so you have no right to believe that he is a deciever.

Needless to say yours is not the Christian understanding of the texts involved.

I'm interested more in your understanding not the Christian understanding in this issue. Otherwise, we can't go forward if we kept believing in what we have been told to believe in as i said before. If you are really looking for the truth, as i do so, so you we should look in the scripture together and examine it and i won't force my understanding upon you but i'll just ask and analyze it with you till we reach to a conclusion based in what we find out through our discussion but not in what i want you to believe in as you think.

The simple answer to this is that mohammed considered Moses a prophet and carried over some of the practices into his new religion also having a better chance of bringing over christians and jews with him. I guess i didn't need to say that.

Can you prove that he was looking into the bible (which wasn't arabic at that time) and did as you mentioned?

even if there was an arabic bible at that time so he won't be able to read it simply because he is an illiterate.

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isaiah 29:12 (KJV)

When Gabriel said to Mohammed read, Mohammed "peace be upon him" told him that he can't read, why? because he is illiterate and he is not learned.

That's a fulfill for the prophecy, then after 3 times of asking him to READ, Gabriel taught him to read in the name of Allah.

'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created
(all that exists) has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (Quran: Surah 96).

Now, before you start preparing yourself to answer and maybe defend your pervious unjustfied belief in prophet Mohammed, keep in mind that this is not a competition between who win and who will lose but it's just about a discussion who will lead either of us to the truth if we really want to.

when i show you the things written therein you will tell me it got corrupted and so can't be trusted as the koran says.

Impossible. The Quran never mentioned even once that the previous word of God can't be trusted as you claim. God ordered us to believe in the pervious scriptures as we believe in the Quran because all of them are the word of God.

As a whole is important. And involves a lot more than Matthew Mark Luke and John. But it's 1400 hundred years since Mohammed was died. Why should he be believed now?

I didn't get what you mean in here, can you please elaborate. Do you mean just because Mohammed died so he is no more a prophet?

So wouldn't it be a human kindness not to spread the message so that everyone gets a "special deal on Judgement day".

Nope, I believe that a risk you won't take.

Islam is not somthing which one must escape from but rather, it's a true happeness for the true believers who were waiting for prophet Mohammed to appear and it's the belief which will rescue those people who are confused in this life and have no reason to "in their mind" to live. It's simply, a great oprtunity to live happy in this life. So if you asked me about being kind to people, it will definitely be through my behavior which my faith planted in me and encouraged me to act upon. Islam came to save humanity, my friend. It's the feel of being near God and there is no true happeness without believing in him.

I had a private discussion with F.V.M about this before and was most intrigued, i felt however that she had rejected a false idea about what Christians believe.

I guess she can answer you for that.

I could provide with many reverse testimonies, but for the majority of people who do not live in muslim countries Islam means nothing because they have had no clear message or messenger.

What about rejecting the truth after finding it?

What do you say about that?

I feel that perhaps we are getting closer to an answer and i look forward to FVMs thought out response. One problem is that discussions like this just raise more and more questions and it is hard to stay on topic

Don't worry about that, we still in topic and we will try to be so as well as much as we can.

particularly when you feel like you want to defend your faith. I am finding this aspect quite difficult and i thank you for the effort you have made to stay on topic.

Thnaks for your politeness and unaggressive manor it goes a long way.

We will continue soon no doubt if the Lord tarries, may Your eyes be opened before that day. ( I am wishing a good thing for you not being confrontational here )

Well, you have the right to defend your faith and your beliefs as long as that doesn't involve rejecting things just because it doesn't fit with your background and what you have been taught. We will try "God willing" to reason well and discuss and we ask God to help us and guide us to all the truth. May God open our heart and minds to the truth, Amen.

 

[*Paul*]

All those prophets were sent to humanity before Mohammed "peace be upon him" and prophet Mohammed was the last one, but the difference is that the pervious prophets were sent to a specific people in a specific time with a specific message unlike prophet Mohammed who was sent to all human beings as whole till the day of judgement. Allah won't send a prophet to each village and house in your country dear Paul. He already sent prophet Mohammed.

Where exactly was Mohammed sent, and how many miles is it from England? I'm not asking for an example of one per village, just one for the whole country? Is it abu hamza?

Why can't he be the one?

The one what??

I'll assume that you are aware of this verse:

1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
and:
1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet.

Yes, as is aid i have discussed it at least twice before, one identical thread with fully veiled muslimah.

If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE" and all reffer to the comforter which is the holy spirit. So, this is spirit "the comforter" is a prophet and the prove is:

The same John, who is supposed to have authored the Gospel bearing his name, also penned three more Epistles which are also part of the Christian Bible. Amazingly he has used the same terminology of "Holy Spirit" for "Holy Prophet."
Beloved, believe not every Spirit, but try the Spirits whether they
are of God; because many false Prophets are gone out into the World.
(HOLY BIBLE) 1 John 4:1

the Spirits inside the prophets. Some prophets have believed lying spirits. Seriously it is a weak arguement and can go no way to convincing me that Mohammed is prophesied of in the bible, i have read all such claims to this and it would be funny if it were not so sad. It is outside of the scope of this thread to answer this.

Give me one reason which make you believe that Mohammed is a deciever.

I mean that he was decieved and then spread that deception not that he was deliberatly decieving. Simple he taught that Jesus did not die for your sins and my sins, this will lead people to hell.

Let us analyze this, for instance, i have all the right to say that there is no prophet after Mohammed because he said so but you have no reason to deny that a prophet might come after Jesus Christ.

Right but there won't be another messiah. If a man comes along claiming to be a prophet of God I will test what he says against scripture - Genesis to Revelation

In order to deny anyone who claim to be "that prophet", so you must prove that he didn't fulfill the prophicies in the bible which described him.

Jesus did and He did it first.

15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
From the midst of thee??? Tell me, where was Mohammed born & where was he raised?? Who are called the Jews brethren in the book of deuteronomy?? 10v19, 15v7,17v15,24v14 & 33v9. There is the context for you to look up if it matters to you.
From the midst:
Hebrew = kereb:
Meaning: inward part; physical sense; as a seat of thought and emotion; as faculty of thought and emotion; in the midst, among, from among (a number of persons), entrails (of sacrifice of animals)
Given that Thy Brethren is always used of the Jews in Deuteronomy and that this prophet must come from the midst or inward part of the people, How does Mohammed fit into this clear meaning?

I'm interested more in your understanding not the Christian understanding in this issue.

I am a Christian, i've come to these conclusions my self from looking at the verses and the typology between Jesus and Moses is awesome.

Otherwise, we can't go forward if we kept believing in what we have been told to believe in as i said before.

I'm not guilty of that, how much easier my life would be today if that were so.

Can you prove that he was looking into the bible (which wasn't arabic at that time) and did as you mentioned?

One only need to observer or here about the practices of the Jews, i was only guessing in any case and didn't give it too much thought as i was in a hurry.

even if there was an arabic bible at that time so he won't be able to read it simply because he is an illiterate.

HE recieved revelation from a supernatural being, all we need here is the being to know what was needed and the tell it to mohammed.

Impossible. The Quran never mentioned even once that the previous word of God can't be trusted as you claim. God ordered us to believe in the pervious scriptures as we believe in the Quran because all of them are the word of God.

I've read it for myself, it claims the injil and the torah are from allah then it says they were changed (i.e corrupted)

I didn't get what you mean in here, can you please elaborate. Do you mean just because Mohammed died so he is no more a prophet?

No thats not what i was saying i was saying that it's been 1400 years since the death of mohammed why should modern day people consider him a messenger, you'll have to read back to pick up what that was all about.

Islam is not somthing which one must escape from but rather, it's a true happeness for the true believers who were waiting for prophet Mohammed to appear and it's the belief which will rescue those people who are confused in this life and have no reason to "in their mind" to live. It's simply, a great oprtunity to live happy in this life. So if you asked me about being kind to people, it will definitely be through my behavior which my faith planted in me and encouraged me to act upon. Islam came to save humanity, my friend. It's the feel of being near God and there is no true happeness without believing in him.

I think you may have missed my point here. IF those who do not get to hear of allah get a special deal or treatment on judgment day then the only kind thing to do is not tell anyone then at least everyone does well on judgement day and has a happy eternity no matter how unhappy this short life may be for them.

What about rejecting the truth after finding it?
What do you say about that?

Damnation and reprobation. If people find the truth and do not love it, woe to them.

Well, you have the right to defend your faith and your beliefs as long as that doesn't involve rejecting things just because it doesn't fit with your background and what you have been taught.

Don't be under the impression here that i have any loyalty to my upbringing or tradition, my only loyalty is to my Creator and my Redeemer.

 

[TashaN]

Jesus did and He did it first.

15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
From the midst of thee??? Tell me, where was Mohammed born & where was he raised?? Who are called the Jews brethren in the book of deuteronomy?? 10v19, 15v7,17v15,24v14 & 33v9. There is the context for you to look up if it matters to you.

It does matter to me of course, so let's go for it based on the context as you asked me to do so.

15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

It didn't say from the sons of Israel but from the midst of thee, of thy brethren.

starting with chapter 10 ....

10:19. But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak:


10:20. For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

[16] Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur-an) to make haste therewith.

[17] It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

[18] But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated): (Surah 75)



10:21. The brother also shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the son; and the children shall rise up against their parents, and shall put them to death.


There are many muslims who believed in Mohammed killed either their fathers, their sons or brothers during battels and the most famous one is "Abu Obaida Amir bin Al-Jarah" who killed his father in one of the battels even though he tried as much as he can to avoid him but his father was insisting to face him.

10:22. And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.


Definitely, no question about that, i guess you are aware of the hate the idol worshippers in Mecca and how much they hated him for saying one God.

10:23. And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.


Do you know that the Jews weren't originally in Madina but they went there because the scriptures were telling them that the prophet will flee to Madina and he will appear amongest them, so they lived there waiting for him to appear and flee there. All history books are full of this event when the Prophet Mohammed fled to Medina when he was driven out of Mecca. He first was persecuted in Mecca then he went to Medina. But sadly, some Jews believed in him and the others didn't because simply he wasn't a Jew and they didn't like that he wasn't, even though all signs says he is the one and he is indeed one of them because he is from the sons of Ishmael and as you know Ishamel and Jacob are brothers.

10:24. The disciple is not above the master, nor the servant above his lord.

10:25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the good man of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household?
10:26. Therefore fear them not. For nothing is covered that shall not be revealed: nor hid, that shall not be known.


10:24-10:26 can be easily said about Mohammed and his disciples.


10:27. That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops.

Mohammed recieved the revelation in the first place in the DARK cave in Mecca then the prophet Mohammed preached the word of God in the light with the light to all human beings.


10:28. And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.



I guess this one is clear too.


10:29. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.


the Muslims fall down to the ground when they pray to God.

Did all Prophets including Jesus prayed to God the same as Muslism pray now?


Paul, do you think now that all of this is just a coincidence?

 

[TashaN]

Where exactly was Mohammed sent, and how many miles is it from England? I'm not asking for an example of one per village, just one for the whole country? Is it abu hamza?

Are you being sarcastic in here, Paul? I said Mohammed and you come and mention for me abu hamza?

I thought you are much better than that.

Anyway, let me tell you somthing, did Jesus went to every country in this world and into every house and ask people to believe in him or he was sent from God so everyone hear of him and his true message believe in his message?

The one what??

Promised prophet.

the Spirits inside the prophets. Some prophets have believed lying spirits.

Sorry, i guess there is a misunderstanding in here, there is no such thing as a prophet if he was believing an lying or an evil spirit but when you say that person is a prophet from God so it means he recieved the true revelation of God.

Seriously it is a weak arguement and can go no way to convincing me that Mohammed is prophesied of in the bible, i have read all such claims to this and it would be funny if it were not so sad. It is outside of the scope of this thread to answer this.

You didn't prove for me until now why can't he be the promised prophet and what are the lies which he spread. This is in the very core of this thread because you are claiming that he is not a prophet of God while your own scripture say so. Don't just deny it but prove that denial based on facts and analyzing and testing the possible meanings for the scriptures. If both of us just kept denying anything which we don't like so that's not a discussion, not even debating. If it was a weak argument, tell me why, that's all.

I mean that he was decieved

Can you please back up this claim.

Simple he taught that Jesus did not die for your sins and my sins, this will lead people to hell.

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isaiah 29:12 (KJV)

The Quran is not the word of Mohammed but the word of God. Therefore, God said he didn't die.

Right but there won't be another messiah. If a man comes along claiming to be a prophet of God I will test what he says against scripture - Genesis to Revelation

Great, who said Mohammed is the messiah? Jesus Christ is the Messiah and prophet Mohammed is just another comforter like Jesus was.

I am a Christian, i've come to these conclusions my self from looking at the verses and the typology between Jesus and Moses is awesome.

So Moses is God too?

One only need to observer or here about the practices of the Jews, i was only guessing in any case and didn't give it too much thought as i was in a hurry.

So prophet Mohammed heard and guessed all of these details in their books?

Just wow. I hope you can back up this claim too.

HE recieved revelation from a supernatural being, all we need here is the being to know what was needed and the tell it to mohammed.

Wait, let me understand this.

Are you saying that prophet Mohammed must have been contacted with a supernatural being and he told him about what is needed to be the promised prophet?

Does angel Gabriel ring a bell to you?

What i conclude from what you said is that ..

1- You believe some supernatural being contacted with him.
2- He told Mohammed what was needed to be a prophet as promised in the bible.

If i understood this correctly so you have no more excuse to say that he wasn't prophet of God.

I've read it for myself, it claims the injil and the torah are from allah then it says they were changed (i.e corrupted)

Show me which verse in the Quran does it say so.

No thats not what i was saying i was saying that it's been 1400 years since the death of mohammed why should modern day people consider him a messenger, you'll have to read back to pick up what that was all about.

And since 1400 years and Islam is growing and considered to be the fastest growing religion. Isn't it this enough to you?

I think you may have missed my point here. IF those who do not get to hear of allah get a special deal or treatment on judgment day then the only kind thing to do is not tell anyone then at least everyone does well on judgement day and has a happy eternity no matter how unhappy this short life may be for them.

Not at all, it's the same thing whether it was on earth or in the day of judgement.

So if a person never heard about Islam, and was never warned clearly, Allah would have a special test for that person that He knows is equal to the chance that person would have had on earth.

Again, it's a kind thing from your perspective not to be a muslim but it's the opposite to me. It's kind that people enter to Islam.

Don't be under the impression here that i have any loyalty to my upbringing or tradition, my only loyalty is to my Creator and my Redeemer.

And i respect that in you Paul.

 

[TashaN]

I guess you missed some information in my post Paul.

Therefore, we must go and analyze whether he is the one or not "based on the bible" which described a prophet who shall come after Jesus according to the OT and NT.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18

many Christians would say this is God is telling Moses that he will send Jesus and also Muslims will say he is Mohamed but how we can know which one of them is this prophet.

first of all, the one mentioned in this verse supposed to fulfill 4 criterias according to the verse:

1- God will raise this prophet from thier brethren (the Jews).
2- Like unto Moses ( like Moses ).
3- God will put his words in his mouth.
4- this prophet shall speak unto them all that God shall command him.

Also ....

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isaiah 29:12 (KJV)

When Gabriel said to Mohammed read, Mohammed "peace be upon him" told him that he can't read, why? because he is illiterate and he is not learned.

That's a fulfill for the prophecy, then after 3 times of asking him to READ, Gabriel taught him to read in the name of Allah.

'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created
(all that exists) has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (Quran: Surah 96).


Peace and blessing,

TT

 

[Muffled]

To start use the word prophet or messenger. This is because christians consider people like Paul an aplostale of god which no muslim exepts because between Jesus (as) and Mohammed (saw) there was no prophet

About the abostles of Allah(sw), they start with Adam (as) and ended with Mohammed (s.a.w). The muslims today are the messengers of the messenger of Allah (sw). this is because no messenger will be sent to man kind After Mohammed (saw) because Allah(sw) has promised to protect his message from curroption like he didn't for those before (as in the true blievers of the messages of Musa(as) and Jesus (as)). Those messages were curropted and altered in many ways over time(Which every scholor of the bible and torah will admit)

Sorry if i couldn't be of any help but i'm running late to class but i hope you understand the concepts of Islam and i pray that Allah guides us all on the straght path

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apostle means "sent by God". In that sense Paul is an apostle because Jesus sent Paul. In truth all Christians who obey the great commandment and preach the Gospel are apostles also.

It is quite possible that Mohammed is the last messenger even though Baha'u'llah wrote considerably, it could be construed as a rehash of Christianity and Islam.

 

[*Paul*]

It does matter to me of course, so let's go for it based on the context as you asked me to do so.

15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

It didn't say from the sons of Israel but from the midst of thee, of thy brethren.

You have ignored what from the midst means and what thy brethren means in Deuteronomy and then to show me the context you go to some new testamant passages which are not talking about the same thing. But a mere attempt to make them talk about Muslims and mohammed, how is that answering my repsonse about what the Deuteronomy passage means??

starting with chapter 10 ....

10:19. But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak:

Who is the YOU Jesus is talking to? It is His disciples if He were talking about muslims or mohammed He would have said THEY SHALL DELIVER THEM OR HIM UP.

10:20. For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

[16] Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur-an) to make haste therewith.
[17] It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
[18] But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated): (Surah 75)

What has these koranic verses got to do with anwering your interogaters who are persucting you for following Jesus, which is what Jesus is talking about?

10:21. The brother also shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the son; and the children shall rise up against their parents, and shall put them to death.


There are many muslims who believed in Mohammed killed either their fathers, their sons or brothers during battels and the most famous one is "Abu Obaida Amir bin Al-Jarah" who killed his father in one of the battels even though he tried as much as he can to avoid him but his father was insisting to face him.

You forgot the very next verse and a few verses previous for the context:
Mt 10v18: And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mt 10v21: And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mt 10v22: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Did all these things come upon the Mohammed and muslims for being followers of Jesus Christ?

10:22. And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
Definitely, no question about that, i guess you are aware of the hate the idol worshippers in Mecca and how much they hated him for saying one God.

So if you are comparing this with the Matthew passage are you saying Mohammed was perseucted for saying Jesus is the one true God? Of course you aren't then why are you putting these two passages together?

10:23. And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.
Do you know that the Jews weren't originally in Madina but they went there because the scriptures were telling them that the prophet will flee to Madina and he will appear amongest them, so they lived there waiting for him to appear and flee there. All history books are full of this event when the Prophet Mohammed fled to Medina when he was driven out of Mecca. He first was persecuted in Mecca then he went to Medina. But sadly, some Jews believed in him and the others didn't because simply he wasn't a Jew and they didn't like that he wasn't, even though all signs says he is the one and he is indeed one of them because he is from the sons of Ishmael and as you know Ishamel and Jacob are brothers.

Read the book of Acts for the immediate fulfillment of this passage but even more specifically it refers to the twelve He sent out to witness around Israel before He met up with them again.

10:24. The disciple is not above the master, nor the servant above his lord.
10:25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the good man of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household?
10:26. Therefore fear them not. For nothing is covered that shall not be revealed: nor hid, that shall not be known.


10:24-10:26 can be easily said about Mohammed and his disciples.

Will you behave yourself? This is clutching at straws. You would have a point if it didn't apply Jesus and His followers.

10:27. That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops.
Mohammed recieved the revelation in the first place in the DARK cave in Mecca then the prophet Mohammed preached the word of God in the light with the light to all human beings.

To all human beings or those near to those in his vicinity?

10:28. And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.
I guess this one is clear too.

Is it? This is general advice to all those who follow Jesus and as a consequence will be tortured, maimed, raped and killed, just for following Him.

10:29. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.

the Muslims fall down to the ground when they pray to God.

And birds fall to the ground when they die.
Mt 10v32: Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Did all Prophets including Jesus prayed to God the same as Muslism pray now?

Paul, do you think now that all of this is just a coincidence?

A coincidence?? I feel as though I have missed something. I am sitting here wondering what was going through your mind as you typed these words , truly I am baffled that you would think that the things that you posted applied to muslims and mohammed instead of Jesus followers.

 

[*Paul*]

I guess you missed some information in my post Paul.

I thought i would run out of space besides this was answered in my post.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18

Fulfillment:
Jn 8v28: Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jn 12v49-50: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isaiah 29:12 (KJV)

Isa 29v10-13: For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Can't you see that this is Jehovah speaking by a prophet to the Jews because of their hypocrisy and mere lip service to God?? Then He likens this blinding judgement to a sealed book that the wise say they can't read becuse it is sealed and the unlearned can't read because the are unlearned. It is not a prophecy about a coming prophet. But about Judgement upon the Jews. Read Romans 11 for more details.

1Jn 4v9-10: In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.