Signs from Apostles of allah, what are they?

[*Paul*]

I was going to ask this in the dir forum but it would doubtless end in a debate so i'll ask here:

Surah 40. The Believer, The Forgiver (god)​

49. Those in the Fire will say to the Keepers of Hell: "Pray to your Lord to lighten us the Penalty for a day (at least)!" 50. They will say: "Did there not come to you your apostles with Clear Signs?" They will say, "Yes". They will reply, "Then pray (as ye like)! But the prayer of those without Faith is nothing but (futile wandering) in (mazes of) error!"
Interpretation S.Abdul A'La Moududi:
That is, 'When the fact is this that the Messengers had come to you with the clear Signs, and you have already been sentenced to suffer punishment here, because you had refused to believe in them, it is not possible for us to pray for you to Allah. For obviously there should be some plea for such a prayer, and you have exhausted every plea by your misconduct. So, you pray for yourselves if you so like: but we would tell you beforehand that the prayers of the people who had disbelieved in the world like you have been of no avail.

What are these clear signs that leave unbelievers without excuse or hope for mercy? Who are these apostles? Who qualifies as an unbeliever?

 

[Sola*5]

This reminds me of the rich man and Lazarus account. It would be most interesting to hear the muslim perspective on this. We'll have to see if they want to get into it I suppose.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

All of the prophets of Allah have come with signs to prove to the people they were addressing, that they indeed were the messengers of Allah. Musa (as) sign was his staff and the various plagues. These were the signs to Fir'own that Musa was the prophet of Allah. Fir'own disbelieved in Allah and in the fact that Musa was a messenger of Allah and died a disbeliever. He will not be forgiven. Similarly Jesus (as) came with many signs well enumerated in the bible. The healing of the sick and so on. These were the signs from him to the bani Israel that he was the messiah. They disbelieved in him as well despite his clear signs. Muhammad came with the Quran first and foremost. Aside from that, he performed a few miracles. One instance is when they were digging the trenches. One companion as he was working could see the hunger reading on the face of the prophet. He went and pulled the prophet to the side and offered that he would feed the prophet what little food he had at home. He did not offer it to all the companions because there were a couple thousand of them, and he did not have enough food to feed them all. When he told the prophet, the prophet invited all the companions to eat, and told the man not to worry for the amount. Well the man went home and slaughtered one lamb and had a little bread. When the prophet arrived to the man's home, the prophet served the food. Then he told the man to serve but not to look into the dish itself. Only to reach his hand in and there would be food there. After all the people were fed, there was much food left over that everyone was able to take some for their own homes.


The signs of Allah are not restricted to mu'jizat or miracles. Allah's signs is the earth itself, our bodies, all of the existance we have come to know, all things in creation are His signs. Man, being apart of it and witnessing these things daily cannot deny that they exist. All the prophets that have come to the world has pointed out these things to some degree or another. This is what Allah is talking about. Through investigating and pondering over these things, we are to recognize the greatness of Allah. Allah wants us to realize that all the things we see that are wonderments in and of themselves, are originated by Allah and ultimately due to His greatness that these things exist.

 

[Sola*5]

All of the prophets of Allah have come with signs to prove to the people they were addressing, that they indeed were the messengers of Allah. Musa (as) sign was his staff and the various plagues. These were the signs to Fir'own that Musa was the prophet of Allah. ........................

It's a tragedy that Fully veiled Muslimah is the only muslim on this site who cares enough to try to warn people about what these signs might be so that they can avoid such a horrible destiny. What modern day signs are there to people alive today? Old stories about miracles years ago are hardly convincing evidence of why allah should be believed today. That could be said of all religions but this is about Islam. How is the evidence of creation a sign that a person should become a muslim and not a jew or a hindu? Some might argue that creation is so expansive that it took more than one God to do it (not me but some might say that).
Does a person just have to believe in a creator? Is a disbeliever only a person who denies a creator? It talks of not listening to messengers with their clear signs, do you think that every generation should have a messsenger with clear signs?

 

[TashaN]

It's a tragedy that Fully veiled Muslimah is the only muslim on this site who cares enough to try to warn people about what these signs might be so that they can avoid such a horrible destiny.

That doesn't mean the others don't care but rather, waiting for the feedback from the writer of this thread or any other members toward the post written by FVM, in order to go on in the discussion.

 

[*Paul*]

That doesn't mean the others don't care but rather, waiting for the feedback from the writer of this thread or any other members toward the post written by FVM, in order to go on in the discussion.

Well it looks like Sola*5 has asked some questions that aren't too difficult to answer, so have at it by all means.

 

[mohamedhassan]

Does a person just have to believe in a creator? Is a disbeliever only a person who denies a creator? It talks of not listening to messengers with their clear signs, do you think that every generation should have a messsenger with clear signs?

To start use the word prophet or messenger. This is because christians consider people like Paul an aplostale of god which no muslim exepts because between Jesus (as) and Mohammed (saw) there was no prophet

Firstly, the modern day signs are many for anyone willing to comprehend the truth. Today, people believe in what science and scientists say and the quran contains many miracles (you can check some on mirclesofislam.(com) also contains historical miracles which were predicted and were fulfilled. NONE of the perdictions ever made in the quran can be denied because they were fulfilled. An example is as a pose to christianity Allah says "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message(the quran and hadeeth); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." Which has proven true for 1400 years and will prove to be true to the last day.

So the miracles exist till today and one only has to read the quran and see the miracles it produces.

About the abostles of Allah(sw), they start with Adam (as) and ended with Mohammed (s.a.w). The muslims today are the messengers of the messenger of Allah (sw). this is because no messenger will be sent to man kind After Mohammed (saw) because Allah(sw) has promised to protect his message from curroption like he didn't for those before (as in the true blievers of the messages of Musa(as) and Jesus (as)). Those messages were curropted and altered in many ways over time(Which every scholor of the bible and torah will admit)

Sorry if i couldn't be of any help but i'm running late to class but i hope you understand the concepts of Islam and i pray that Allah guides us all on the straght path

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

What modern day signs are there to people alive today? Old stories about miracles years ago are hardly convincing evidence of why allah should be believed today.

This what you have said is very true. This is why you will hardly find talk amongst the muslims about the miracles performed by the prophet. The miracles performed by the various prophets of Allah are almost irrelavent to people nowadays.

This is a question that requires long and thoughtful answer Sola so forgive me if it takes more than one or two posts to truly get across what I want to say. Modern day signs consist mainly in the intellect of mankind. Man has evolved intellectually since our inception in this world. We are able now more than ever to ponder over deeper concepts, and ask deeper questions. With this comes a greater responsibility than that of the people of the past. In the past it was required of the people to only believe with a minimal amount of actions, and also a minimal amount of question asking. This is mainly because these people had the various prophets in thier presence, or it was in the recent past. We today do not have the honor of actually seeing or communicating with any of the prophets of Allah. All we really have is the account of the prophets given to us via the many holy books that are in existance. In light of this seeming disadvantage Allah has supplied us with more intellect and capacity to understand vast concepts as well as simple ones. So what I am saying is with this intelligence, we should be able to understand and decipher the truth from these various writings. I say decipher because many of these books have been altered for many reasons. I won't get into that as it will take me far from what you are asking.



It is worthwhile for me to do a little backtracking and explanation. First, I would like to clarify what a messenger is in Islam. A messenger/prophet is a person that has been divinely chosen by Allah from among their own people to guide them to the straight path, from which they have either deviated or never known before. Allah says in Quran:

24. Verily! We have sent you with the truth, a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner. And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them.

Nation here does not mean country it means more like race of people. Allah is saying that He has sent to the nations of the world prophets from among them. The bani Israel had quite a few of them as borne out in the Bible. The Arabs received Muhammad and so on. I won't list them as that takes too long. A prophet is that person that is designated to make efforts to change the hearts of the people they are around. Changing the heart inevitably changes the actions of a person. A person cannot become a prophet through their own piety, sacrifices, own in any way of their own accord. Prophets will either be true or false. A true prophet of Allah teaches three things in general. They are:

a) Tawheed--- this is the oneness of Allah. Every prophet from Adam to Muhammad have all taught the same thing. That God is one without partners or co-Gods. Basically monotheism.

b) Risalat---- this is the teaching that they themselves were to be believed in as the messengers of God. They affirm the prophets that came before, and if there were any to follow they gave indication of that as well.

c) Akhirat---- This is the teaching that there is a such thing as hereafter. They teach that heaven and hell are actual places and how to avoid hell and obtain heaven.

As far as muslims are concerned Muhammad is the last prophet to come to the world. He is not the founder of Islam in general. He is the summary or the ending of the line of prophets.

What is Islam?

Allah has only ever revealed one religion to mankind and that is the religion of monotheism. That is the oldest religion. If you take a moment to do a little research, you will find that a great many religions, regardless of what they have become started out as monotheistic in nature. Even some religions who are admittedly polytheistic, when you read the earliest doctrines associated with that belief system, we find that there is a root somewhere in monotheism.


I am not finished, but since this requires such long explanation I will continue it tomorrow.

 

[croak]

It's a tragedy that Fully veiled Muslimah is the only muslim on this site who cares enough to try to warn people about what these signs might be so that they can avoid such a horrible destiny.

... Sure. I'm supposing you can back up that claim by having asked every Muslim on http://www.religiousforums.com whether they care?

As for the signs, well, you'll know what they are when you see them, I guess. Those apostles could be anyone. And who qualifies as an unbeliever... undoubtedly it is explained in the Qur'an.

 

[*Paul*]

Firstly, the modern day signs are many for anyone willing to comprehend the truth. Today, people believe in what science and scientists say and the quran contains many miracles (you can check some on mirclesofislam.(com) also contains historical miracles which were predicted and were fulfilled.

The same can be said for the bible though and the tanakh. Though i do not believe what science says if it contradicts the bible. God knows best.

NONE of the perdictions ever made in the quran can be denied because they were fulfilled. An example is as a pose to christianity Allah says "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message(the quran and hadeeth); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." Which has proven true for 1400 years and will prove to be true to the last day.

People contest the same thing for the bible, many people in fact. Prophecy is still being fulfilled today from the Old and New testaments.

So the miracles exist till today and one only has to read the quran and see the miracles it produces.

I must have read at least half of the koran now but knowing the bible as I do in my honest opinion it is incomparable though i'm sure you would expect a Christian to say such a thing.

About the abostles of Allah(sw), they start with Adam (as) and ended with Mohammed (s.a.w). The muslims today are the messengers of the messenger of Allah (sw).

This does creat a problem though because there is no clear right path of Islam to an outsider, personally i think those in Saudi Arabia practice true Islam, but some would say sunnis do and yet others would say what we call moderate Islam is the correct one or sufism, they can't all be messengers can they?

this is because no messenger will be sent to man kind After Mohammed (saw) because Allah(sw) has promised to protect his message from curroption like he didn't for those before (as in the true blievers of the messages of Musa(as) and Jesus (as)). Those messages were curropted and altered in many ways over time(Which every scholor of the bible and torah will admit)

Every scholar? I'm afraid you have been misinformed here. There are some who deny this: Dean Burgon; Dr Henry Cloud;Dr Samuel Gipp; Dr Jeffrey Khoo; Dr Thomas M Strouse(seminary proffesor); Dr Robert Barnett; Dr Ron Tottingham (Phd,Th.d,Lit.d); Joel R Grassi (Th.M Pastor D.A Waite (Th.D,Phd); I could name many others.

Here is a comment by Francis Turretin i like which i believe still stands true:

"TENTH QUESTION: THE PURITY OF THE SOURCES -- Have the original texts of the Old and New Testaments come down to us pure and uncorrupted? We affirm against the papists."

​

"By the original texts, we do not mean the autographs written by the hand of Moses, of the prophets and of the apostles, which certainly do not now exist. We mean their apographs which are so called because they set forth to us the word of God in the very words of those who wrote under the immediate inspiration of the Holy Spirit."
"Rather the question is have the original texts (or the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts) been so corrupted either by copyists through carelessness (or by the Jews and heretics through malice) that they can no longer be regarded as the judge of controversies and the rule to which all the versions must be applied? The papists affirm, we deny it."
Turretin says, "The providence of God proves that the sources have not been corrupted." "The following arguments prove that the sources have not been corrupted. (1) The providence of God which could not permit books which it willed to be written by inspiration (theopneustois) for the salvation of men (and to continue unto the end of the world that they might draw from them waters of salvation) to become so corrupted as to render them unfit for this purpose.... (2) The fidelity of the Christian church and unceasing labor in preserving the manuscripts. (3) The religion of the Jews who have bestowed upon the sacred manuscripts great care and labor amounting even to superstition.... (4) The carefulness of the Masoretes not only about verses and words, but also about single letters (which, together with all the variations of punctuation and writing, they not only counted, but also wrote down, so that no ground or even suspicion of corruption could arise). (5) The multitude of copies; for as the manuscripts were scattered far and wide, how could they all be corrupted either by the carelessness of librarians or the wickedness of enemies?... (6) If the sources had been corrupted, it must have been done before Christ or after, neither of which is true. Not before because Christ would not have passed it over in silence (for he does censure the various departures in doctrine), nor could he bear to use corrupted books....Not afterward, both because the copies circulated among Christians would have rendered such attempts futile, and because no trace of any such corruption appears..... (7) The Jews neither would nor could corrupt the sources...." Turretin argues that if the Jews had corrupted any scripture it would have been concerning the Messiah and prophecy used by Christians. On the other hand, Christians would immediately have noticed any changes made by the Jews since the time of Christ.
Turretin made a difference between corruption and variants: "A corruption differs from a variant reading. We acknowledge that many variant readings occur both in the old and New Testament arising from a comparison of different manuscripts, but we deny corruption (at least corruption that is universal)."

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I could find many more but you have to believe that it was corrupted because the koran says so, even though it allegedly came from allah whose words apparantly can't be changed.

 

[TashaN]

What modern day signs are there to people alive today?

There is alot of modern day signs which make it so hard for those who are looking for the truth to deny that Islam is the right path.

How is the evidence of creation a sign that a person should become a muslim and not a jew or a hindu? Some might argue that creation is so expansive that it took more than one God to do it (not me but some might say that).

Does a person just have to believe in a creator? Is a disbeliever only a person who denies a creator? It talks of not listening to messengers with their clear signs, do you think that every generation should have a messsenger with clear signs?

[40] Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done) He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward. (Quran 4:40)

Allah says in this verse that he is never unjust toward us and in case we did any good deeds so he will double it for us.

We believe that God gives to people signs in their lives and it's their choice whether to believe or to reject the truth. Belief is not just being a Jew, a Christian or a Hindu as anyone might think but rather, it's a commitment toward God's instructions and divine revelations in this life and it doesn't stop into being part of that religion or that unless God say so.

For example, if someone is a Jew so it's his/her duty to believe in Jesus Christ and follow him because he was sent by Allah almighty. Human beings have free will, whether to believe in God or reject him, but when they want to believe in him, it won't be in their ways. They must follow excatly what God wants from them and they can't just pick any religion to believe in. We believe in divine revelations revealed to prophet such as Moses and Jesus and no muslim is a muslim if he didn't believe in the Torah and Injil.

Some people might think that just because he believe in one God so it's not enough. The answer is no, you can't just say i believe there is God then "full stop". We must believe in God's prophets whom he sent to us and if we didn't so whether we believe in him or not that's won't make any change because at that moment, it would be clear that arrogance or any other reasons such as ignorant have derived this person from obeying God.

Regarding sending a messenger to every nation, it means that God won't leave people unaware of his message that's why he sent to every single nation a messenger to warn them and remind them of Allah their creator.

Allah says in the Holy Quran:

[44] Verily Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul. (Quran 10:44)

The verse clearly state that Allah will never deal unjustly with us but we wrongs our ownselves then blame God for that later on.

Why did i mention thise verse?

To let you know that we have to follow the truth wherever it's but not to say that it's my way or the high way. We have to purify our hearts from the disease of rejection, arrogance, blind following for certain groups or like that, we only will worship indirectly those whom we follow blindly but not God.

You would ask me now for instance, what should i do?

The answer is in this verse:

[110] If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 4:110)

The door is wide open for those who seek forgiveness and it's not late once someone realize the truth and find it. As God sent Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and so many prophets, he also sent prophet Mohammed to the whole world as the final prophet to human beings from God almighty.

That's why, we must believe in prophet Mohammed as we believed in the pervious prophets because we don't considered to be believers if we just picked what we want, but rather, we must believe in all the instructions and verses of Allah.

 

[doppelganger]

I know "Yield" is one of them.

 

[TashaN]

The same can be said for the bible though and the tanakh....

People contest the same thing for the bible ...

I must have read at least half of the koran now but knowing the bible .....

Sometimes, people tend to defend themselves by grapping somthing to hold upon, so instead of thinking outside the box, they keep closing their eyes and they keep believing in what people wants them to believe in, instead of searching for what really they SHOULD believe in. Don't ever let others to choose for you how to believe in God, but look it out for yourself if you really wants to believe in the truth.

Also, I noticed that you try to compare the Quran with the bible and you forgot that we believe in the same God, the God of Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

God said in the Quran ...

[130] And who turns away from the religion of Ibrahim but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.


[131] Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" he said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."


[132] And this was the Legacy that Ibrahim left to his sons, and so did Ya'qub; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah).


[133] Were ye witnesses when Death appeared before Ya'qub? Behold he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, - of Ibrahim, Isma'il and Ishaq, - the One (True) God: to Him we bow (in Islam)."

[134] That was a People that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!


[135] They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Ibrahim, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."


[136] Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and that given to Musa and 'Isa, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

[137] So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.


[138] (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah: and who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.


[139] Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?


[140] Or do ye say that Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!

[141] That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case: (Quran 2:130-141)

That was the religion of all prophets as you can see.

Also read in here with me ...

[49] "And (appoint him) a Messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;


[50] "(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

[51] "It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight." (Quran 3:49-51)

This does creat a problem though because there is no clear right path of Islam to an outsider, personally i think those in Saudi Arabia practice true Islam, but some would say sunnis do and yet others would say what we call moderate Islam is the correct one or sufism, they can't all be messengers can they?

There is no messenger after prophet Mohammed and those muslim scholars after him are nothing but knowledgable human beings who came to remind us. That's why the concept of a prophet is different in Islam the other religions. Just because someone came to guide people so that doesn't mean he is talking to God or somthing.

I could find many more but you have to believe that it was corrupted because the koran says so, even though it allegedly came from allah whose words apparantly can't be changed.

Why the Injil no more called Injil?

Why they call it the bible?

Do you really know or heard about the difference between the bible and the Injil or not?

That's why we say, the word of Allah can't be changed but people might come up with a modified version which they want to believe in and if they just followed the litreal word of God, no one would go astray.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I have long since lost my train of thought from my last post so I will go ahead with other questions.

How is the evidence of creation a sign that a person should become a muslim and not a jew or a hindu?

A muslim is one who submits themselves to One God. I know you've heard that before but it is important to mention again. It is a universal concept that has been occuring for ages. The people of the past who submitted themselves have all been muslims. All the prophets were those who submitted themselves to One God. It isn't something new at all.

As for signs Allah asks us to look at the world around us, our own selves, and the systems that operate this universe. Allah draws our attention to simple things that we can easily observe, because we cannot observe Allah. For instance Allah says in Quran

31. Say (O MuhammadSAW ): "Who provides for you from the sky and from the earth? Or who owns hearing and sight? And who brings out the living from the dead and brings out the dead from the living? And who disposes the affairs?" They will say: "Allâh." Say: "Will you not then be afraid of Allâh's Punishment (for setting up rivals in worship with Allâh)?"

In this ayat Allah draws the attention to a couple of signs for us to ponder over.

I'll let you read it, then I'll be back tomorrow to go through these points one at a time.

 

[*Paul*]

As for signs Allah asks us to look at the world around us, our own selves, and the systems that operate this universe. Allah draws our attention to simple things that we can easily observe, because we cannot observe Allah. For instance Allah says in Quran...A muslim is one who submits themselves to One God.

I submit my self to my God I believe in absolute surrender to His will but i am no muslim for i do not believe Mohammed was a man sent from God, I believe God is triune, I do not believe the koran is the word of God, i will never go on pilgrimage to haajj (sorry about the spelling) and so so obviously being a Muslim means more than submitting to God it means submitting to God in the way that the koran and hadith teach.

31. Say (O MuhammadSAW ): "Who provides for you from the sky and from the earth? Or who owns hearing and sight? And who brings out the living from the dead and brings out the dead from the living? And who disposes the affairs?" They will say: "Allâh." Say: "Will you not then be afraid of Allâh's Punishment (for setting up rivals in worship with Allâh)?"

Who provides for you from the sky i.e rain, water, sunlight, heat, moonlight, beauty of the heavens? Most religions certainly Jewish and Christian believe that their God does these things and give Him thanks for them when they really consider it:
Ps 8v3-9: When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

And from the earth? Plants, vegetables, medicine, beauty, animals and so on. Again we all praise God for them and Give Him the glory and really are not grateful enough.

My point is that not any of these point specifically to allah as described in the koran anymore than they do to any other who believes in a creator, the verse you gave only assures us that those who worship gods made with their hands or the hands of others cannot possibly be God at all and assurance which the bible goves us also:

Ps 115v1-8: Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

This psalm always reminds me of the man who kept repeating it under a torturous death for smashing up the statues in a catholic church.

 

[James the Persian]

Why the Injil no more called Injil?

Why they call it the bible?

Maybe because we don't speak Arabic and so never called it that? Injil is nothing more than an Arabised version of the Greek Evangelion, which is still what the Greeks call a Gospel as is evidenced by the fact that the book of four Gospels on every Orthodox altar (we don't use the whole NT, or whole Bible in this way) is called a Tetraevangelion or 'Four Gospels'. The Gospels, of course, are quite different to the whole Bible and so your second question is roughly akin to saying 'Why don't they call it a wheel anymore? Why do they call it a car?' Hope that helps you understand the relationship between the Arabic Injil and the English term Gospel.

James

 

[*Paul*]

I truly appreciate the work you have put in to this and your sincerity as I do the lenght of time F.V.M put into her post, i assure you I have read it and considered what you have both written, i keep getting into debates with muslims and we strongly disagree; but i don't hate any of you, i don't even dislike any of you, i have love and compassion in my heart for you all so i want you to know (if you believe me) that i do not write from a position of maelevolence or spite, but out of Zeal for the Truth.

Sometimes, people tend to defend themselves by grapping somthing to hold upon, so instead of thinking outside the box, they keep closing their eyes and they keep believing in what people wants them to believe in, instead of searching for what really they SHOULD believe in.

Nobody believe something that they know they shouldn't surely. I believe what I believe for many reasons and i don't think in my mind that i SHOULD believe in anything else.

Don't ever let others to choose for you how to believe in God, but look it out for yourself if you really wants to believe in the truth.

This is where i can not be found guilty friend (sorry i know you can't take me as a friend) I have examined the doctrines i hold, i believe no doctrine simply because I am told to. When i was first born again during that first year there were things that as i Christian I was expected to believe; however I refused to beleiev anything (and still do) that i had no reason to believe out of the bible. Everthing has been checked to see if that is what God says if it can be verified in the bible. I remember asking my Dad about the Jesus being God for example ( i believed it but didn't really understand why or how) and the answer he gave me was very unsatisfactory so I searched the scriptures and studied constantly praying to God that I would not be decieved on my own with no one to help but God this i have done throughout my faith. I listen to teachers but check if what they are saying is in fact true.

Also, I noticed that you try to compare the Quran with the bible and you forgot that we believe in the same God, the God of Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

I don't believe that i'm afraid.

[130] And who turns away from the religion of Ibrahim but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

Rom 4v2-5: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[131] Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" he said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."

And he did:
Gen 18v1-2: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

[135] They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Ibrahim, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

I say become a Christian and be justifed as Abraham was. :
Rom 4v19-25;5:1: And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[136] Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and that given to Musa and 'Isa, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

Ex 3v6: Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Ex 6v2-3: And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Lev 26v42: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Someone is missing here
Gen 22v2: And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gal 4v22-3: For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4v28-31: Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Why the Injil no more called Injil?
Why they call it the bible?

The bible simply means collection but with the word Holy in front of it, it is a Holy collection of all of Gods Word to man.

Do you really know or heard about the difference between the bible and the Injil or not?

The gospel is in the bible throughout it, no bible = no gospel.

That's why we say, the word of Allah can't be changed but people might come up with a modified version which they want to believe in and if they just followed the litreal word of God, no one would go astray.

I follow the literal word of God, the koran came after the bible, and contradicts it in many places. So who's changing what? Not only that but the gospel is confirmed by early christian writings too. The death and ressurection of Jesus is not in the koran but denied and that 600-700 years after it happened with no eyewitness accounts.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Who provides for you from the sky i.e rain, water, sunlight, heat, moonlight, beauty of the heavens? Most religions certainly Jewish and Christian believe that their God does these things and give Him thanks for them when they really consider it:
Ps 8v3-9: When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

And from the earth? Plants, vegetables, medicine, beauty, animals and so on. Again we all praise God for them and Give Him the glory and really are not grateful enough.

My point is that not any of these point specifically to allah as described in the koran anymore than they do to any other who believes in a creator, the verse you gave only assures us that those who worship gods made with their hands or the hands of others cannot possibly be God at all and assurance which the bible goves us also:

You are drawing a difference where there is none. There is only one God to begin with Paul. I'm not going to get into whether or not Allah is God to you because its not the focus and I already know what you think.

Allah is the rabbus samawati wal ard the Lord of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. You can deny that if you wish by thinking Allah is a devil and so forth, but the sooner you come to realize that's not so the quicker we can come to some amicable agreements Paul. What's the deal anyway? Accepting that Allah is God does not threaten your stance as a christian anyway.

This is thing that I dislike so much. You are so busy finding the differences that you fail to see the glaring similarities. If the bible says a truth and quran speaks the same truth, why is the quran somehow incorrect? If Jesus and Muhammad saying the same thing why is Muhammad incorrect and Jesus not? If Jesus referred to the God of Abraham as his God and Muhammad refer to that same God as his God, then why would they be talking about different Gods as you seem to believe? Because Jesus said Elohim and Muhammad said Allah? Neither of them call upon Jesus as God. I call upon Allah/Elohim because it's the same thing. The difference is only that of language not of description.

If they were both here before us we would see no difference. Jesus prostrated in prayer to his Lord and Muhammad did the same, Jesus said his Lord was one Lord and muhammad said the same, Jesus called his people towards righteousness and good actions, Muhammad called his people to the same things. So why is Muhammad misguided and Jesus not misguided?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I submit my self to my God I believe in absolute surrender to His will but i am no muslim for i do not believe Mohammed was a man sent from God,

I was speaking about being muslim in the general sense. The people of the past submitted themselves to one Allah but not believing in Muhammad since he was not born yet. They followed their prophet and the law given to them, and therefore were counted as believers. The jews at the time before Jesus who upheld the law and believed in Musa and the prophets were counted as believers. When Jesus came along they were called upon to believe in him also yes? Those who believed in the previous law understood Jesus to be the messiah so therefore followed him. Those who did not became misguided. However it didn't render the law of Moses false nor did it render Moses a false prophet. It is counted as misguidance because of the flat denial of Jesus when he came with clear evidence. Those jews who accepted Jesus did not make a new religion. They simply continued following the guidance given to them from thier Lord. Take the labels off, and you get one religion that Allah has always provided for mankind from the get go. Never has Allah revealed anything other than the religion of monotheism. It is people who have conjured the label and tried to adjust the commandments of Allah to fit what they wanted to do, thus coming up with a new religion often-times under the same name as the original one.

There is a common thread running through all of this. Believe in One God and believe in the prophets. Do deeds of righteousness and abstain from evil deeds, and know that we will be gathered together on the Day to render accounts. Is this not the teaching of Jesus, Moses, and the prophets? Is this not the teaching of Muhammad? If you can agree with that, which I feel a doubt coming on, then why the truth is not true coming out of the mouths of muslims? According to the words attributed to Jesus in the bible, he did not teach anything contrary to this. Jesus believed in One God, he did not deny the prophets before him, and upheld the commands. Is this not the advice he gives for salvation to the man who addressed him as good? One man reportedly asks Jesus how to obtain salvation and this is what Jesus replied:


16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, (matthew chapter 19)

Sound advice from Jesus himself on what constitutes salvation. This is the core of salvation as given in the old testament, the words of Jesus, and the words of Allah and His rasul as given in Quran and hadith. If we follow these things explicitely, why then are we misguided? Its the same thing over and over and over again that Allah is trying to convey. The different offshoots and sects, and deviations are going to occur. Therein lies the test. The messege is clear enough that even amongst the falshood the truth stands out. But because the falshood can be found within the books themsleves Allah brought another revelation i.e., Quran. Same story, only this time Allah is preventing the book itself from being distorted.....ever. Not only the words themselves cannot be changed but also a set definition and explanation was given. This was done so that bootleg interpretations can't be given. Anyone falling outside the standards too much fall outside the pale of Islam. There is no grey area, it's very balck and white at this point. Either one is believing in Allah or not.

 

[*Paul*]

You are drawing a difference where there is none. There is only one God to begin with Paul. I'm not going to get into whether or not Allah is God to you because its not the focus and I already know what you think.

Allah is the rabbus samawati wal ard the Lord of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. You can deny that if you wish by thinking Allah is a devil and so forth, but the sooner you come to realize that's not so the quicker we can come to some amicable agreements Paul. What's the deal anyway? Accepting that Allah is God does not threaten your stance as a christian anyway.

This is thing that I dislike so much. You are so busy finding the differences that you fail to see the glaring similarities. If the bible says a truth and quran speaks the same truth, why is the quran somehow incorrect? If Jesus and Muhammad saying the same thing why is Muhammad incorrect and Jesus not? If Jesus referred to the God of Abraham as his God and Muhammad refer to that same God as his God, then why would they be talking about different Gods as you seem to believe? Because Jesus said Elohim and Muhammad said Allah? Neither of them call upon Jesus as God. I call upon Allah/Elohim because it's the same thing. The difference is only that of language not of description.

If they were both here before us we would see no difference. Jesus prostrated in prayer to his Lord and Muhammad did the same, Jesus said his Lord was one Lord and muhammad said the same, Jesus called his people towards righteousness and good actions, Muhammad called his people to the same things. So why is Muhammad misguided and Jesus not misguided?

What was that all about? How is this response in any way relevant to the post you were responding too? Did you read something else I wrote? If anything i agreed with you but failed to see how the verses you posted and the ones i posted were proof or clear signs that there is one God let alone allah or Jehovah.