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Significance of Shiva Nataraja

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
Namaste,

I’d like to have some information on Shiva Nataraja. I had bought a Shiva Nataraja statue a couple of years ago and the shop owner (an Indian) told me Shiva’s dance somehow was related to Destruction or the end of the world. Well, that’s basically all I know. :confused:

Here are some questions: Does Shiva’s dance cause destruction or does destruction start when he finishes his dance? What does the fire ring signify?

I also recall having read somewhere that Brahma was related to Creation (sattva guna), Vishnu to Preservation/rajoguna (or the other way around, depending on the denomination) and that Shiva was related to Destruction/ Ignorance/ tamo guna. Maybe a Shaivite could explain to me how a supposedly tamasic deity can grant salvation? IMHO, adding destruction to destruction only leads to more destruction? Could you come up with positive examples (when destruction is good?)

I sincerely hope I didn’t offend anyone, I’d just like to understand better. For a short time I was into Tibetan Buddhism, where there are “wrathful deities” who are supposed to help people overcome certain character flaws. Is this concept comparable to Shivaism?

Thanks for your replies.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I very much prefer 'dissolution' over 'destruction'. It's a step in the everlasting cycle of emanation ... sustaining ... dissolution ... stillness ... emanation ...

For Saivas, within Siva there are 5 powers and all within Nataraja:
srishti, emanation, represented by the drum, sound,
sthithi, preservation, represented by His lower right hand
samhara, dissolution, absorption, represented by fire
tirobhava, obscuring grace, represented by His right foot
and anugraha, revealing grace, represented by the raised left foot

All this and much more ... but if you want more detail, just search on 'symbolism of Nataraja' and you'll get lots of hits. Even Shakti is there, in the earring.

So from the Saiva POV, (like mine) He is all, and in All, there is none other that Shiva.

Of course from other Hindu schools, or Abrahamic or scholarly interpretations, you will get different POVs.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
I'm not Shaiva or Vaishnava, but I'd rather have Mahadeva the terrible grant me moksha than seek it from the Vishnu that today's Vaishnava-s worship.
The reason for this is very simple:

I find great camaraderie amongst the Shaiva-s. They are staunchly proud to be Hindus, to be called Hindus, and to be recognized as Hindus. Even the Shaiva-s outside of India, those that are adopted by Bholenath like the Shaiva Siddhanta Church ... extremely proud to be called Hindus. They are more than willing to bring in non-Shaiva-s under the banner of Dharma, without digressing into useless theological digressions. Most of the Vaishnava-s that I have encountered, on the other hand, have a difficult time getting down from their high horse---thinking they are so high and mighty in their self-anointed "sattvic"-ness. Plus, have you ever yelled with all the vigor you can muster Har Har Mahadev!? No? Yeah, you're missing out on a lot, bro. Trust me.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The reason for this is very simple:

I find great camaraderie amongst the Shaiva-s. They are staunchly proud to be Hindus, to be called Hindus, and to be recognized as Hindus. Even the Shaiva-s outside of India, those that are adopted by Bholenath like the Shaiva Siddhanta Church ... extremely proud to be called Hindus. They are more than willing to bring in non-Shaiva-s under the banner of Dharma, without digressing into useless theological digressions. Most of the Vaishnava-s that I have encountered, on the other hand, have a difficult time getting down from their high horse---thinking they are so high and mighty in their self-anointed "sattvic"-ness. Plus, have you ever yelled with all the vigor you can muster Har Har Mahadev!? No? Yeah, you're missing out on a lot, bro. Trust me.

Why, how kind of you, young man.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
I very much prefer 'dissolution' over 'destruction'. It's a step in the everlasting cycle of emanation ... sustaining ... dissolution ... stillness ... emanation ...

Thanks for the information.

All this and much more ... but if you want more detail, just search on 'symbolism of Nataraja' and you'll get lots of hits. Even Shakti is there, in the earring.

So from the Saiva POV, (like mine) He is all, and in All, there is none other that Shiva.

I looked up some facts on the symbolism of Nataraja but I'd like to understand better what Nataraja as a whole stands for [additionally to being God]. IMHO Krishna embodies the playful side of God and Kali the Dark Mother, for example. Is Shiva Nataraja something like an ideal to be followed by humans or something completely beyond human understanding? In other words, can one become like Shiva Nataraja and what would this state be like?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Tough question, and I contemplate that form every day in sadhana. He was this soul's introduction to Hinduism. Definitely completely beyond human INTELLECTUAL understanding. Far more intuitive than that. I've stood in front of Him at Chidambaram, and at the main monastery temple of Saiva Siddhanta Church in Hawaii, where He's also enshrined. The first time there I actually fell over, couldn't stand from the shakti. I thought I was going to melt. So overall, it's just this indescribable sense of awe that's far more than any other feeling you've ever had in your life. An incredibly strong sense of the infinite God.

But that's the Saiva way.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I also recall having read somewhere that Brahma was related to Creation (sattva guna), Vishnu to Preservation/rajoguna (or the other way around, depending on the denomination) and that Shiva was related to Destruction/ Ignorance/ tamo guna. Maybe a Shaivite could explain to me how a supposedly tamasic deity can grant salvation? IMHO, adding destruction to destruction only leads to more destruction? Could you come up with positive examples (when destruction is good?)
I am pleased to see that you have corroborated my studies in what you write here on the Trimurti on the gunas and these deities. You talk about salvation. What do you mean by this word? The only thing worth striving for is liberation that is freedom from attachments, freedom from delusions, freedom from desires, etc. This can only come from pursuing truth. Following a tamasic deity, that is Shiva, will never lead to liberation. It will lead to attachments that will destroy one's mind so that there is no peace.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Only Vaishnavas consider Shiva as Tamasic.

Shaivas obviously see Shiva as the Supreme Being or Brahman who can grant liberation.
Relegating various deities as rajasic, tamasic, or sattvic reminds me of rigorists from a particular epistemology condemning "foreign" gods as "false". And I'm sure the legitimate and conscious pro-Hindus untainted by sectarian squabbling know of which meme I speak.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
I am not sure whether Ishvara and Brahman can be regarded as god or God.

Probably not, because these words (god and God) were coined before the 12th Century CE by people who had never heard of any Indian Gods, including Shiva, Krishna, Ishvara and Brahman. It is very likely that their definition of these words were limited to Christianity and a few other Western beliefs.

In other words, I would not be surprised if the people who created these words would disallow them to be used for Indian religion - given the exclusive nature of their own God, with all other Gods/gods being false.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Probably not, because these words (god and God) were coined before the 12th Century CE by people who had never heard of any Indian Gods, including Shiva, Krishna, Ishvara and Brahman. It is very likely that their definition of these words were limited to Christianity and a few other Western beliefs.

In other words, I would not be surprised if the people who created these words would disallow them to be used for Indian religion - given the exclusive nature of their own God, with all other Gods/gods being false.
The word 'god' just means supernatural beings that we cannot see but who have powers to influence things in the material world. And 'God' refers to the Creator who may also be the Preserver of the universe.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Probably not, because these words (god and God) were coined before the 12th Century CE by people who had never heard of any Indian Gods, including Shiva, Krishna, Ishvara and Brahman. It is very likely that their definition of these words were limited to Christianity and a few other Western beliefs.

In other words, I would not be surprised if the people who created these words would disallow them to be used for Indian religion - given the exclusive nature of their own God, with all other Gods/gods being false.

This is similar to the debate over the term 'Hindu'. We all know that the correct term is Sanatana Dharma, but in everyday usage its just so common we use it. If I say 'God' this entire forum gets it. If I say 'Shiva' only a few do. So correct or not, it is the reality. I consider Brahman to be God, but as you know that concept of God is incredibly different from the Abrahamic one. There are tons of English or 'foreign' terms that are now part of Hinduism, whether totally accurate or not, like reincarnation versus samsara.

But this is way off the topic of Nataraja now, so I will cease and desist.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Only Vaishnavas consider Shiva as Tamasic.
Sorry, that's not what we believe.. We only consider him as the controller of "Tamo Guna" and this is based on pramanas in Puranas and Itihasa. He is a Parama Vaishnavite for us, we have respect for him.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Sirona, I'm so sorry your simple and respectful question went so far off topic. I do hope that you gleaned some valuable information from Saivites from the answers. Thank you again for being so respectful. That goes such a long way in meaningful communication. Aum Namasivaya
 

ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
My response regarding Nataraj segways from two perspectives. The second is the obvious religious aspect in the context of Living Hinduism. But the first may even seem “un-Hindu” and comes from the perspective of an “artistic” continuance of the Human Psyche where the MURTI of Nataraj is a World Treasure of Human expression of the Divine.

Firstly, there are certain images, art treasures, great works, timeless images that live on as part of the greatest contributions of the human expression. These are the World Treasures of the deepest beauty and art of the human mind even though they are inspired by the Divine in the Divine’s own Presence.

We may think of, for example, the Statue of David. Now, in this example, there is only one originally sculptured by Michelangelo in the year circa 1502 AD. It is a World Treasure. If not destroyed (by Shiva Himself eventually at some marker in Time, otherwise even at the hands of some crazed religious zealots who oppose the nakedness of this Statue of David), hundreds of years from now it will still be a world treasure. It is one of a kind. Or we may think of the great oil painting “The Girl with the Pearl Earring” by Vermeer painted circa 1665 AD. Again one of a kind. Such world treasures will follow humans into time, into the future, and for whatever reason had, and have great impact upon the human psyche.

There are other world treasures which are not one of a kind. They are reproduced many times over, but based on a timeless template that has become hardwired into the very ethos and psyche of the human expression.

That is the Murti of Nataraj. Who and when the first human made this image of the Murti of Nataraj, who can say? Perhaps it was a God who made the first. But humans now have been making Murtis in the Image of Nataraj, and empowered by Nataraj, for a long time.

Among all the world treasures of the human experience, I would say Nataraj is definitely of the top Five, if not the pinnacle of such expression itself. Thousands of years from now, when humans enter that future “museum” of the greatest World Treasures of “human expression”, there you will find the Murti of Nataraj. There is no question in my mind, this will be the case.

I have observed the effect, affect, and impact of the Murti of Nataraj first hand on several occasions when this image, sculpture of metals, is exhibited in some museum. When someone enters the room, where various “works of art” are displayed, and if that Image of Nataraj is standing far off at the other end of the room, they stop. Their eyes fixate on Nataraj. They only look left and right briefly, then … they go directly to that Image. They stop… and gaze. And are “taken over” by the impact. They stand, sometimes their mouths half open, they just … stare. Powerfully, they are “engulfed”. There is no question about it. Then the next enters the room, the same. Now two are standing side by side. Looking. Looking. Looking.

The humans know.

This is what the Murti of Nataraj is. It is the greatest “art” and expression of the very pinnacle of human expression of “art”, a world treasure, if not the most important world treasure of all time. One million years from now, it will still be so.

What and Who is Nataraj?

He is the Paradox of Time and Change – He dances, and all is motion. Nothing is the same one nano-second later. We all see that. In Him. And in this frenzy of dance and change, He holds the time, tick tick tick drum drum drum, the beat, the rings of fire, many rings expanding out into the Universe, many Universes, He dances in It, He is Behind Time itself, you see? When you see that, you have destroyed ignorance, the little midget He stands upon with One Foot. The other foot is raised, and His graceful hand points down to that Foot. It is but one moment in the Dance, soon we know the Foot will move, the Eyes, the Hair, the Moon is in His Hair, fire and time, motions and change. He is Behind it All. Now you know, you can crush ignorance by knowing. Why fear the frenzy of change, when you see He stands Behind it. Now you see His feet. Love your Lord of Dance. Surrender to his Feet. It isn’t very hard. All things will spin around you, no matter what. Time will take you. Change will come. But you will know one thing for sure, now. He Stands Behind all that Frenzy. There is Nothing to Fear Anymore.

This is Nataraj. He will bring rings of Fire, and then one ball of flame all begins. When will He throw that ball of Flame? Where are YOU in this Time of Change?

Outside the European Center for Particle Physics in Switzerland, there stands Nataraj. He is the greatest of “Art”. He is between Us and all the cosmic forces, all things, changing, and He is the Father of the Cosmic Family of Shiva, Shiva the Auspicious One. We are seeing Him all around, the Lord of Animals, the Great Lord, the Great God, the Beneficent, Shiva!

From the Religious view, to me and so many, Nataraj is exactly the same as in the eye of the human seeing the Murti of Nataraj as one of, if not the, greatest of World Treasures, the Greatest Art of Humans ever. I can tell you, many, many having seen this Murti, came to the Path of Hinduism. After seeing this Image, even only one time. Many, many, many came and come. This is the power of the This Image.

Yes, the Frenzy. Rudra. There is sound, too. When the rings spin, the howl. The sound like a million tornadoes. Rudra. And then in Nataraj, the Paradox of Time and Change, the Frenzy of Motion, the Dance. One Hand, the Hour-Glass DRUM. Time is marked. The other Hand, a Ball of Flame. It does NOT burn His hand. When will He throw it? At what Time? One Hand says “Do not Fear”. The Other points to His raised Foot, “Take shelter here”. He stands on the dwarfish Apasmara Purusha, that is the man who forgets. The inertia of the dwarf is crushed by the Paradox of Time and Change. Rings of fires around The Lord, the Light and the Universes.

The Paradox of Time and Change. The Paradox is, He is also Eternity.

That is Nataraj, to me. I think, to most. And His Image will be with humans now – forever into the future.

01shiva-571.jpg
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Thousands of years from now, when humans enter that future “museum” of the greatest World Treasures of “human expression”, there you will find the Murti of Nataraj. There is no question in my mind, this will be the case.

01shiva-571.jpg
Outstanding, flabbergasting. Yes, the universe and all that happens in it is represented by Shiva Nataraja, the creation, life, and dissolution, all.
Nataraja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ps- Thank Shiva that I am a sort of 'smarta'. I love Shiva as dearly as Vishnu, Rama, Krishna or Mother Durga. I enjoy all the fruits.
 
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