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Featured Sign of the end (day of the LORD/judgment)?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Why you ask me, go ask Christ Jesus since he's the one that gave the book of Revelation.
    You seem to think you know more than Christ Jesus that gave the book of Revelation in the first place.

    In Revelation 13:1 what is the beast,
    having 7 heads, and 10 horns, and 7 crowns,
    What does Christ Jesus say, they represent in the book of Revelation?

    You seem to think, you know more than the one who gave the book of Revelation.

    So go into the book of Revelation and see what Christ Jesus will tell what they Represents?
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Who wants to know what “stupid” me thinks. I want to know your answer to your own question. Revelation 13:1 is answered in Revelation 13:2, which is answered in Daniel 7:4-7.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Present tense. Not 'going to be' but already are. I find Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 is already going around the world taking place right now. We are at the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14 because even modern technology has made possible rapid Bible translation so that people living in remote areas of Earth now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages. So, we are nearing the ' final signal ' so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 before the start of the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14, then Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill such as those of Matthew 25:37,40.
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 25:37,40 precedes Matthew 25:41, whereas he says to those on his left, “Depart from me accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels”. I am thinking the people on the left are not thinking that this is “global peace on earth”. The “great tribulation” also includes (Revelation 9:18), whereas “a third of mankind was killed”. I am not seeing the “global peace” with the coming “day of the LORD”, I am seeing judgment, with elect barely making it through the episode, only because it was “cut short” (Matthew 24:22)
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, I agree you should see judgement as that is what Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 is about.
    It is No wonder Jesus' stressed a person would have to 'endure' to the end at Matthew 24:13.
    There will be a final judgement on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.
    The figurative humble 'sheep'-like people are placed at Jesus' right hand of favor, so to speak.
    The figurative haughty 'goat'-like people will Not be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth.

    Satan and his demonic angels will end up in ' second death ' as per Revelation 21:8.
    Jesus destroys Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
    So, ' second death ' is that figurative ' eternal fire '.
    Just as 'Gehenna' (in English as hellfire) was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever, and Not kept burning forever, then that symbolic ' eternal fire ' is the ' second death ' of Revelation 20:13-14.
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t want to mention it, because of the turmoil it might cause, but Matthew 25:33-46 points to the end of the millennium, whereas there will be an everlasting punishment. The judgment at the beginning of the millennium is quite different. Those who love lying, etc., who survive, “at the end of the age” (Matthew 13:39) will simply be put outside the gate (Revelation 22:14-15), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:51 & Matthew 13:42). The second death happens at the end of the millennium, where the “false prophet” at that time, was already in the “lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10), waiting for the “devil”, who had just been released “for a short time” (Revelation 20:3). As for who will end up with a “second death”, that will be all who are not written in the book of life” (Revelation 20:15). Now as far as the “false prophet”, apparently he wasn’t struck out of the book of life, for he apparently will “be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). So you see, a second death would be desirable for those thrown into the lake of fire.

    As for the separation of the tares from the wheat, the tares will be gathered up “first”, and thrown into the fire, and then the wheat will be gathered. (Matthew 13:30) The tares will end up “in that place where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:42). The same occurrence happens with respect to Matthew 24:40, when “there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left”. The tare, now shown as the “evil slave” will be taken first as shown in Matthew 13:30) & (Matthew 24:51), as the tare and the “evil slave”, all wind up where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 24:51).
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The definition of the lake of fire is defined at Revelation 20:13-14.
    The lake of fire is defined as the ' second death '. Satan ends up in 'second death' as per Revelation 21:8 B.
    At Hebrews 2:14 B Jesus destroys Satan, then ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
    As in ALL the wicked ( sinner Satan is wicked ) will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7.


    Interesting that you say Matthew 25:31-33 is at the end of the millennium.
    Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
    The haughty ' goats ' are Not persons of goodwill. They will Not be part of the millennium.
    They are executed by Jesus' words as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
    Sure there will also be a final judgement at the end of the thousand years because the majority of mankind (John 3:13) lived and died before hearing or learning about Jesus. So, being resurrected back to life on Earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth gives them the opportunity to accept Jesus at that thousand-year time frame.
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Your “second death” does not apply to Satan, for he has everlasting life. The “false prophet”, and the “beast”, would also be included, because they apparently also have eternal life, and will be “tormented day and night forever and ever”(Revelation 20:10).

    As for Revelation 19:14, if they are “persons of goodwill”, how come he has to rule them will a “rod of iron”. If they are of “good will”, why are those who die before 100 years, considered “accursed”? (Isaiah 65.20) There may be people of “goodwill” who will live in peace during the millennium, but there will also be others, such as “those who practice lying, etc., who live outside the gate (Revelation 22:14-15). The “tares” will be thrown into the fire, but will they die, or be subjected to that which causes weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:40-42). Jacob also must go through the “fire”, yet 1/3 will survive (Zechariah 13:8-9). Certainly, one third of mankind will die (Revelation 9:18) by way of the “fire and smoke and brimstone”.

    The goats would refer to the people sitting on the left with respect to the end of the millennium, not the beginning. Apparently they were the ones deceived when Satan was released from the pit. (Revelation 20:1-3).

    The “end”, which is the millennium, doesn’t come until the “gospel of the kingdom” has been preached to the whole world (Matthew 24:14). The whole world has access to that gospel through the Internet. More people have Internet access than have access to modern toilets. The only ones resurrected at the start of the millennium are the included in Revelation 20:4, which include the beheaded because of the testimony of Yeshua, and because of the Word of god, and those without the mark of the beast, which would exclude the followers of Paul.
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In my reading of Scripture I find that Satan is a sinner.
    How could sinner Satan have everlasting life in him when Romans 6:23 says that death is the price sin pays.
    No where does Scripture say angels are immortal. No where does it say Satan is immortal ( death proof ).
    Doesn't sinner Satan fit the description found at Revelation 21:8 of those who end up in ' second death '.
    I find at Hebrews 2:14 B that Jesus destroys Satan.

    The false prophet and the beast are symbolic and Not a literal person.
    I notice you used the word tormented and Not tortured forever and ever. Tormented with what.
    2 Thessalonians 1:9 says punished with everlasting destruction. Not punished with everlasting life.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Satan/devil is not a “sinner”, he is the father of lies, and “sinners” are his sons (1 John 3:8). The biggest lie is “you surely shall not die” (Genesis 3:4) The son of Satan, Paul, has you believing the same lie, in the form of his “twinkling” message.

    Angels do not die. Apparently 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God. They apparently can be locked up in the “abyss”(Revelation 20:2), but apparently they can be released from the abyss also (Revelation 20:3). As for Romans 6:23, written by the false prophet, Paul. He claimed to be the foremost sinner, yet he expected to escape death by being “twinkled”.

    The “false prophet” and the “beast” were very real, but now that they have died, their demon spirits are all that is left (Revelation 16:13-16). Demons are the surviving spirits of the offspring of heavenly watchers/angels and women of earth (Book of Enoch) and they do not die, and often seek shelter in the hearts of men and swine, as was done with the demons fleeing the man and seeking shelter in swine (Matthew 8:32).
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the Book of Enoch is Not one of the '66' harmonious Bible books, but one of the apocryphal books because it is out of harmony with the '66' books of Bible canon.

    Like father like son, chip off the old block, Satan told the first lie, thus that is why as the 'father of the lie' he could pass on lies to his spirit ' sons ' (demonic angels). Thus, sinner Satan passed on what he fathered which is sin because lying is a sin. Satan was a sinner from the beginning of his sinning or lie telling.
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And yet Paul repeats the same lie of his father, the serpent (Genesis 3:4). Surely you shall not die but be twinkled instead. And your canon comes from the Roman bishop of Alexandria, Athanasius, an associate of the "beast with two horns like a lamb", Constantine, who was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth". (Revelation 13:14).
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I wonder where Paul repeats Satan's lie. John 8:44 is Not servant Paul speaking, nor is Paul speaking at 1 John 3:8.
    I find servant Paul is teaching at 1 Corinthians 15:50 that ' flesh' (physical) can Not inherit the kingdom.....
    So, a person must die before having a resurrection. Either an earlier or a later resurrection (Later as in Acts 24:15)
    Please notice at Revelation 20:6 that there are some dead people who have a first or earlier resurrection.
    First or earlier resurrection would be the rank or order of resurrected ones at the time of 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
    So, at that time frame, Not sooner, those called to be resurrected to heaven (Revelation 2:10; 5:9-10) then do Not spend time sleeping in death as per 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Corinthians 15:23.
    Whereas the majority of mankind sleep in death until Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth when 'enemy death' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
     
  14. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    It is what most “Christians” call the rapture, whereas they do not die, but go directly to heaven. The problem was that Paul wasn’t “Changed”, but is buried in the ground, supposedly outside of Rome. This whole idea is in contravention of Jeremiah 31:30, where “everyone dies for his own iniquity”.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53King James Version (KJV)

    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    So we can leave out all the other prophecies because that's the only one that's relevant, you say?

    Well, the Israelis have the atom bomb, and as neighbors they tend to exhibit deplorable manners, so the Middle East may be in some danger, but I'm not sure about the rest of the world.

    Besides, in Genesis 15:18 Yahweh promises Moses that his descendants would hold all the lands from the Nile to the Euphrates, and since the Muslims do that, it looks like they're the true heirs of prophecy, wouldn't you say?
     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I think you miss the point. Jacob, such as Israel and Judah, have been “crushed in judgment”(Hosea 5:11) for the last 2,000 years (Hosea 6:2). It is not until they say “Come let us return to the LORD”, that “He will raise us up on the third day”. At that time “I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you”(Jeremiah 30:11). At that time, “I will gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land” (Ezekiel 36:24). While the “clay mixed with iron”, were crushed the 1967 & 1973 Israel wars, the gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay have yet to be “crushed all at the same time”(Daniel 2:35). Tick tock.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But this has been true of Muslims for centuries, as I pointed out; and they are a branch of (forms of) Judaism and acknowledge the god of Abraham, so there's a perfectly valid argument that (a) the circumstances of the prophecy were fulfilled long ago, (b) but the predicted consequences didn't happen (c) so the prophecy was actually a dud, as prophecies routinely are.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find perhaps most 'weed/tares' Christians might call chapter 15 of Corinthians as rapture, but to me servant Paul is quite clear about ' resurrection ' (There is a BIG difference between rapture and resurrection ).
    What I comprehend at 1 Corinthians 15:50 is that ' flesh and bone ' (Physical) canNOT inherit the kingdom.
    Since ' rapture ' is physical, then there is NO rapture.
    The people 'sleeping' dead at 1 Corinthians 15:20 are in line for a resurrection.
    Jesus' brothers' (Matthew 25:40; 1 Corinthians 15:24) still alive on Earth will 'die ' as per 1 Corinthians 15:50.
    They will die, but at the time of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 they will Not spend time sleeping in death as the rest do.
    It is because those spiritual ' brothers ' of Jesus have the first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6; 2:10.
    As God resurrected Jesus in his pre-human spirit body, those called to be Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' at the soon coming time of Matthew 25:40 will also have or receive a resurrection in a spirit body - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
    They like Jesus (John 5:26) will 'put on' immortality. Not in the flesh, but in a spirit body because remember 1 Corinthians 15:50 teaches that 'flesh' (physical) can Not inherit the kingdom.
    So, that is in harmony with Jeremiah 31:30,34 which says each ' die ' for his own sins.....
    Remember: Romans 6:23 says that it is ' death ' (Not rapture) which is the total price tag that sin pays.
    Resurrection (Not any rapture) is what allows for a resurrection by Jesus - Revelation 1:18.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    But, I find a ' branch ' or a ' limb ' is Not the Tree (Bible Scripture).
    (a) I find the prophecy of Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 was Not fulfilled long ago, but is coming.
    (b) The predicted consequences of 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 is happening in these ' last days ' of badness on Earth.
    (c) Not a dud prophecy, but as the world will soon see the coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33 to take place on Earth before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing for earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2. As Revelation 21:5 states Bible words will prove to be faithful and true.
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Relying on Paul seems to have sent you into a tail spin. There is the “kingdom of heaven” which is “at hand”(Matthew 4:17), which is the here and now, and which relates to “His kingdom” (Matthew 6:33), which is sought now, and once attained, one has all these basic needs “added to you”, once you have found “His kingdom” and “His righteousness”. It is lived in the flesh, but is based on Spirit and power, and those who have entered into it, have interred into “life” (Matthew 7:14).

    As for the kingdom the kingdom of God, that is called the millennium, and follows judgment day, which is the “awesome day of the LORD” (Joel 2:31).

    And yes, Jeremiah 31:30, “everyone will die for their own iniquities”, but Paul thought that “we shall be changed”, “we shall not all sleep”, ” for this perishable shall put on the imperishable”. That never happened, and the living will not put on the imperishable. It is the dead saints which rise from the dead (Revelation 20:4). As for Matthew 25:40, that refers to the “white thrown judgment”, and occurs after the millennium, not before the millennium. That is when everyone comes out of their graves for the last judgment.(Revelation 20:13).
     
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