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Featured Should women remain silent in the churches?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Back to freedom of conscience...
     
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  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Paul was a Pharisee who contradicts Christ... Yeshua raised women up, and said those who do the work of God, male and female are his family (Matthew 12:50).

    Many of the patriarchal religions need to recognize female prophetess in the past such as Esther, and that a females retention for knowledge is matriarchal; where women should be seen as the elders of society, not trodden down to house cleaners.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #22 wizanda, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  3. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Respectively...Paul didn't advise that women shouldn't speak in church..
    What Paul was saying..that women shouldn't gossip during church service...

    If you read 1 Corinthians 14:34-35..when the pastor preach on a subject..women would talk among themselves about what the pastor was saying.
    This is what prompted Paul to write that women shouldn't speak in church with other women what the pastor was saying..but rather ask their husbands at home about what the pastor was saying.

    Rather than Disturbed other people who are trying to hear what the pastor is saying.
    So the women were advised not to speak in church among other women about what the pastor was saying..
    But rather speak to their husbands at home about what the pastor was saying..
    Rather than Disturbed the whole church.
     
    #23 Faithofchristian, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
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  4. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Of course Pricilla and Aquilla (a husband and wife team) ministered with Paul at times. Priscilla named first is a bit interesting.

    Paul also names a woman at the end of the book of Romans commending her for being such a deacon(ess?) or maybe virtually a deacon? or having such a servants heart

    But all done orderly.. and under the authority of the elders and the same is true for men, they have to act and teach under the authority of other men as well.
     
  5. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    The early Christian church would obviously have abided by the social practices of the (patriarchal) society of the time. St Paul is reiterating that the Law (i.e. of Moses) should be observed and that required women to keep quiet in religious assemblies. Paul was a Jew and Christianity at that time was in the process of evolving from Judaism.

    But it is noteworthy that in the gospels Christ treats the women - when they appear in the narrative - as seriously as he does the men. It is also notable that there were many early women martyrs, some of whose names are recited to this day at Mass whenever the Roman Canon (the most ancient, dating from about 600AD, I think) is used: ......"Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia and all the saints." if I have remembered correctly.
     
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  6. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Of course not. It would difficult for women priests, pastors, lectors and choir members to fulfill their duties if they remained silent. Paul was probably addressing a specific issue in a specific church. A lot of his writings just deal with local church matters and weren't meant for all places and all times. Mary Magdalene was one of the main leaders of early Christianity and I can't imagine she remained silent during worship.
     
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  7. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    'woman' has no spiritual discernment 1 Cor 2:14, and this is why she was deceived.
     
  8. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Paul is not saying that a woman should not go out and preach or talk about God's Word. He not saying that. He saying that in the memorial service when you worship, she should be not teach over a brother or be priest or pastor or something in that term. And there is a reason for that. And that's not to disrespect women at all!!!

    God has set up a divine order of things to be done. His way, not ours......... Who are we to say that we have the right to change that order because we "think" that Mrs. So and so can be a priest in a church. Look at the history of the bible. It was man that held all the titles of everything. Look at the story of creation too.

    1 Cor 13 v 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
    36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
    37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
    38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
    39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
    40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

    1 Tim 2 v 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    1 Cor 11 v 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
    5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
    7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
    8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
    10 For this cause ought the woman to have authority on her head because of the angels.

    A sister must not teach in a way that will usurp authority over a brother. Two reason are given.......
    1. Just as the headcovering in prayer, this confirms the righteousness of the Divine creative order... "For Adam was first formed, then Eve"
    2. This ritual also declares the sister's agreement with the righteousness of God's Edenic curse of subjection and womankind's reponsibility for Eve's part in the failure in the Garden.... "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

    This is strongly confirmed in 1 Cor 14v33-35 "As in all the churches of the saints, let your women keep silence in the churches." Silence is a form of respect. Even the Godless societies of mankind understand this relationship. Therefore although sisters are exhorted in scripture to teach the young women they must not teach or promote themselves above their brothers or they deny God's wisdom in the creative order and deny the righteousness of God's curse of subjection for Eve's part in the failure in Eden. It is unwise to disagree with our Heavenly Father's wisdom or contradict His righteousness.

    The responsiblity on the brethren in relation to this sisters silence ritual is to rise to our responsiblities, exercising the necessary leadership, researching and teaching willingly and reflicting the role of our head in Jesus Christ.
    We cant bring our own thoughts into play on God's princibles. Even if we dont understand things, God is always right. God has "setup" a divine order for us to follow, we cannot change that to our own liking.

    Women priests, pastors, ministers go against God's ways. But.... it's not saying that women cant go out and preach or to talk about God. IT's talking about the divine order God has setup in the church.
     
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  9. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    first thanks for the reply, second that makes no sense. in 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." here, the apostle is not even speak to any woman nor women in the churches. he was speaking to husbands of women who are their wives. he said "Let YOUR women". . he was speaking to men/husband, as was in 1 Timothy 2:12. this is a husband and wife setting, not a brother, in general or sister setting.
    what the apostle was saying, if you "husbands" who know and understand the word of God, then teach your wives the same. and if not, verse 38 tells it all.1 Corinthians 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." if the husband is igorant of God word so will be the wife who don't know. that's why one need to learn at home, (1 Timothy 2:12), before one come to church and cause confusion, by not saying the same thing. for God is not the author of confusion.

    so this is not a brother or sister general church setting, no, but a husband and wives setting.

    PICJAG
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    My grandmother used to do stage whispers in church. It was quite embarrassing.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe in many cases it has become apostate. Sin has been around for a long time so I wouldn't consider it modern. What is modern is rock praise music.
     
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  12. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    ...then proceeds to detail all the disrespect and ignominy thrown at women's feet by this religion. I guess that's a case of ''I'm not sexist, but (insert sexism here)''.
     
  13. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Nope, not at all. You just see things in a humanistic way.
     
  14. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Some of it was husband and wife, but not all of it. IT's almost like you didnt read all of the verses that I put up. Read the whole thing. And yes, this IS a general church settings. That's the point that Paul is making.....
     
  15. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, if you consider women as human and human as being valuable in their own right, this is sexism. If you don't consider women as human and/or human as worthless or not much, sexism isn't really an issue in such a worldview. Of course, I would consider such a worldview as profoundly stupid and the sort of belief that makes our lives darker, sadder and less prosperous.
     
  16. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Men and women were not equal in ancient Jewish culture. Was it wrong? Yes. Just another strike against "divine inspiration".
     
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  17. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    It's not sexist at all. Why did God make man first? Is that sexist? Are we going to protest against God now because of that? Why does scripture tell us that man in the image of God glory of God and woman is the glory the image of man? Why did God make the Levi priests all men. Why did God appoint 12 male apostles? Are we going to say to God that, that wasnt fair and he should have put women in there? God has setup a divine order for us to follow and that's no disrespect to women or anyone. Why do women have to cover their heads in church and men dont? And you.... feel that it's not fair that God wants us to follow his ways? You feel that your ways are better than our Heavenly Father? That my friend......... is humanism.....

    You mentioned humans being valuable in their own rights..... What rights do we have in the house of the Lord? We have no rights when it comes to worshiping our God. It is God's way. Period!! God wants us to follow him and worship him a certain way. His ways. Look at what happens when you dont do that. Look at scripture in the OT. Cain and Able, Arron's two sons. David's servant with the ark, etc......

    I not saying that women are NOT capable of serving the Lord. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that we have to do it God's ways. Not ours....
     
    #37 moorea944, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  18. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    First thanks for the reply. second, I read the chapter, and it's husband and wife in vers 34-40

    but it's everyone not to speak in church when you are out of order, let's see it.
    1 Corinthians 14:20 "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men."
    the word "men" here is not as in male but being MATURE, it's the Greek word, G5046 τέλειος teleios (te'-lei-os) adj. which means complete. don't act like children, for this is God Holy Word, handling it careless.

    1 Corinthians 14:21 "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.". (here the use of other tongues, and the unknow tongue of God. bottom line one without knowledge or understanding needs a translators).

    1 Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
    (here is where your "completeness" come in at, talk with God, and then you can talk to men in any language. other words "GROW UP".

    1 Corinthians 14:23 "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
    1 Corinthians 14:24 "But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:"
    1 Corinthians 14:25 "And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."
    (now my point, say the same thing, first at home and then at church,... meaning altogether, for charity/God begans at home and then is spreaded abroad, one to another. for it is the Love of the word of God/the Gospel, that pierce the heart of the none believer in any language).

    1 Corinthians 14:26 "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."
    (again, say the same thing)

    1 Corinthians 14:27 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."
    (the term "MAN" here is not speaking of any male(s), but to everyone who might get up to speak, for "MAN" here is the Greek term, G5100 τίς tis (tiys') p:i. which means some or any person or object.
    some meaning those who are speaking or teaching ect.... NOW HERE COME THE REVELATION IN THE VERY NEXT VERSRE.

    1 Corinthians 14:28 "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
    (STOP, HOLD THE PRESS, let "him" keep silence in the church? the him here refers back to , "any MAN" in verse 27. sound just like verse 34 don't it. now where is the CRY FOR MEN/MALES ALSO TO BE "SILENT IN THE CHURCH?". well, you want women to be silence in the church, well here the apostle got all of us, males and females. see how ignorant it sounds when one ignorantly runs with women to keep silence in the church. well it goes for all, YOU TOO MR. MALE.) if you don't know the word of God, "all of you, male and female keep silence in the church.

    1 Corinthians 14:29 "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge."
    (afterward the apostle goes after the Married, especially when it's the responsibility of the husband to teach his wife FIRST at home. for they are ONE, and should speak the same thing.

    so NO, it's not just women/wives who are to keep silence in the church, it's "ANY and EVERYONE who is ignorant of God's Holy Words needs to keep silence in the church.

    you didn't see that coming did you. yes, read, but READ the word of God, for the apostle sums it up beautifully, 1 Corinthians 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
    and "man" here with any is,
    G1536 εἰ τίς ei tis (ei tiys') cond.
    if any.

    that just got you too oh ignorant "male" or "female"..

    PICJAG.
     
  19. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    First thanks for the reply, second, we must disagree with that assessment. and here's why. men and woman was, and are equal, but in marriage the male was to take the responsibility/lead in all RIGHTEOUSNESS concering his wife, which is ONE with him.

    but it was hard hearted men, evil men, for selish reason abused this privilege in marriage, THANK GOD HE ALLOWED DIVORCE, AND WOMEN ALSO COULD DIVORCE THEIR ABUSIVE, AND EVIL HEARTED HUSBANDS. and yes, a woman could put away her husband also.

    so when one violate the sanctity of the marriage vows, then in marriage the relationship is unequal. hence why there is LAW. injustice is always dealt with by Law. even in or out of marriage. God is concerned with injustice, or unequal ways. Proverbs 11:1 "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."

    PICJAG.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It's sorta funny that fundamentalists insist that the entire Bible is from God and inerrant, but then they find excuses not to do what's sometimes found within the pages.
     
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