Should women prisoners be treated differently to men?

[Sultan Of Swing]

BBC News - Halve female prisoner numbers, says minister Simon Hughes

'The number of women being sent to prison should be halved, Justice Minister Simon Hughes has said.

Female offenders are a "special case" and should be treated differently to men because many had been victims themselves, he told BBC Radio 5 live Breakfast.

...

When asked why female offenders should be treated differently to men Mr Hughes said: "Women are a special case for very good, evidenced reasons. Firstly, many more women who go to prison have themselves been victims. They've often been abused or in violent partnerships.

"Secondly, many more women have caring responsibilities than men do." '

What's your view? Should female prisoners be treated as a "special case", and be treated differently to men?

How does this weigh into gender equality? Is it coherent to petition for equal rights while at the same time petitioning for women to be treated differently from men as prisoners?

 

[Sees]

I think they should receive the same punishments for the same crimes, on equal basis.

 

[Quintessence]

Okay.

What about men who have been victims? What about men who have been abused or in violent partnerships? What about men who have more caring responsibilities? Are they ignored because they're men? I guess so.

What a load of sexist rubbish.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

BBC News - Halve female prisoner numbers, says minister Simon Hughes

'The number of women being sent to prison should be halved, Justice Minister Simon Hughes has said.

Female offenders are a "special case" and should be treated differently to men because many had been victims themselves, he told BBC Radio 5 live Breakfast.

...

When asked why female offenders should be treated differently to men Mr Hughes said: "Women are a special case for very good, evidenced reasons. Firstly, many more women who go to prison have themselves been victims. They've often been abused or in violent partnerships.

"Secondly, many more women have caring responsibilities than men do." '

What's your view? Should female prisoners be treated as a "special case", and be treated differently to men?

How does this weigh into gender equality? Is it coherent to petition for equal rights while at the same time petitioning for women to be treated differently from men as prisoners?

*sighs*

For the last time...equal punishment for equal criminal activity. Equal pay for equal work. Equal child custody consideration for equal parental time given during marriage.

Simon Hughes is not helping here.

 

[Sunstone]

I believe myself an expert on this subject because I've watch with rapt interest many a fine documentary on women prisoners. For instance, "Debbie Does the Jail Guards", "Sluts in Chains", and that classic, "Women's Behinds Behind Bars". In my informed opinion, women prisoners are desperately in need of higher caloric diets than men in order to have the energy for all the sex they engage in while in prison.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I believe myself an expert on this subject because I've watch with rapt interest many a fine documentary on women prisoners. For instance, "Debbie Does the Jail Guards", "Sluts in Chains", and that classic, "Women's Behinds Behind Bars". In my informed opinion, women prisoners are desperately in need of higher caloric diets than men in order to have the energy for all the sex they engage in while in prison.

I shouldn't have laughed, but I did.

 

[Deidre]

I believe myself an expert on this subject because I've watch with rapt interest many a fine documentary on women prisoners. For instance, "Debbie Does the Jail Guards", "Sluts in Chains", and that classic, "Women's Behinds Behind Bars". In my informed opinion, women prisoners are desperately in need of higher caloric diets than men in order to have the energy for all the sex they engage in while in prison.

I always start off reading your posts thinking it's going to be a serious response...and then.....

 

[roger1440]

I believe myself an expert on this subject because I've watch with rapt interest many a fine documentary on women prisoners. For instance, "Debbie Does the Jail Guards", "Sluts in Chains", and that classic, "Women's Behinds Behind Bars". In my informed opinion, women prisoners are desperately in need of higher caloric diets than men in order to have the energy for all the sex they engage in while in prison.

The world has enough fat chicks. Just think, if they all got on one side of the planet, the world would topple over.

 

[Glaurung]

What about men who have been victims? What about men who have been abused or in violent partnerships? What about men who have more caring responsibilities? Are they ignored because they're men? I guess so.

Sperm is cheap.

For the last time...equal punishment for equal criminal activity. Equal pay for equal work. Equal child custody consideration for equal parental time given during marriage.

Women are equal in every regard so long as it doesn't become suddenly inconvenient. (Or when they sleep with their students).

Not that I'm accusing you of such hypocrisy. But some like to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[psychoslice]

No, they should be treated like men, women can be very dangerous, if they were men and strong as men, my god help us all.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

BBC News - Halve female prisoner numbers, says minister Simon Hughes

'The number of women being sent to prison should be halved, Justice Minister Simon Hughes has said.

Female offenders are a "special case" and should be treated differently to men because many had been victims themselves, he told BBC Radio 5 live Breakfast.

...

When asked why female offenders should be treated differently to men Mr Hughes said: "Women are a special case for very good, evidenced reasons. Firstly, many more women who go to prison have themselves been victims. They've often been abused or in violent partnerships.

"Secondly, many more women have caring responsibilities than men do." '

What's your view? Should female prisoners be treated as a "special case", and be treated differently to men?

How does this weigh into gender equality? Is it coherent to petition for equal rights while at the same time petitioning for women to be treated differently from men as prisoners?

All prisoners should be treated differently than the way we treat our prisoners now. There are bound to be some slight differences in the way we treat women prisoners because of certain physiological differences but even prisoners should have some degree of dignity and semblance of safety.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No, they should be treated like men, women can be very dangerous, if they were men and strong as men, my god help us all.

That's what I'VE been saying all along!

So at the moment, there's poison. (I have been watching too many Dexter episodes)

 

[Debater Slayer]

Okay.

What about men who have been victims? What about men who have been abused or in violent partnerships? What about men who have more caring responsibilities? Are they ignored because they're men? I guess so.

What a load of sexist rubbish.

This.

There are bound to be some slight differences in the way we treat women prisoners because of certain physiological differences but even prisoners should have some degree of dignity and semblance of safety.

This too.

 

[Revoltingest]

BBC News - Halve female prisoner numbers, says minister Simon Hughes

'The number of women being sent to prison should be halved, Justice Minister Simon Hughes has said.

Female offenders are a "special case" and should be treated differently to men because many had been victims themselves, he told BBC Radio 5 live Breakfast.

...

When asked why female offenders should be treated differently to men Mr Hughes said: "Women are a special case for very good, evidenced reasons. Firstly, many more women who go to prison have themselves been victims. They've often been abused or in violent partnerships.

"Secondly, many more women have caring responsibilities than men do." '

What's your view? Should female prisoners be treated as a "special case", and be treated differently to men?

How does this weigh into gender equality? Is it coherent to petition for equal rights while at the same time petitioning for women to be treated differently from men as prisoners?

Oh, those wacky Limies! I presume the poll is just for fun because no one here would support formal unequal treatment...right?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Oh, those wacky Limies! I presume the poll is just for fun because no one here would support formal unequal treatment...right?

Seeing as a member of my country's cabinet was saying it, a justice minister no less, I didn't know, who knows what the world thinks these days.

 

[Quintessence]

Sperm is cheap.

I beg your pardon, but even granting that is true, what does that have to do with anything?

Women are equal in every regard so long as it doesn't become suddenly inconvenient. (Or when they sleep with their students).

Not that I'm accusing you of such hypocrisy. But some like to have their cake and eat it too.

I beg your pardon again, but what the blazes are you talking about?!

It's been a while since I've read such a non-sequitor responses...

 

[Glaurung]

I beg your pardon, but even granting that is true, what does that have to do with anything?

I was agreeing with you silly. I'm not actually talking about sperm.

I beg your pardon again, but what the blazes are you talking about?!

People who play it both ways in regards to how equal women should be treated. I've been a direct victim of this.

I got knocked back for a military job because I was very, very slightly underweight despite more than convincingly passing the actual fitness requirements for males. Had I been female with identical results, they would have begged me to join. It boggles my mind that it's somehow not discriminatory that a woman going into the military as a medic, has significantly lower standards to meet then I do and meet but for a trivial technicality. We both know if the military were to be fair and require the same standards fewer women would cut it and the feminists would argue those standards are been used to systematically bar women. Because evidently they not equal when it's inconvenient.

I appreciate women are different physically. And to be fair, there are a handful of military jobs women are barred from because it would be dangerous to lower the physical standards. (Most men don't even cut it). But somehow she's competent for a medical job that is 'officially', too dangerous for me, despite being significantly weaker than me. How does that work?

 

[Drolefille]

I'm gonna add some nuance as someone who works in the criminal justice system. I'm going to start by saying that I do believe in equal treatment, because I fear that by the time I end this people will assume the opposite.

Women and men have different "pathways" to crime. This means the reasons and methods of why and how they get in trouble tend to be different in the aggregate. There's a lot more mental health problems and a lot of history of trauma in the female inmate population.

What they're saying is true on average, women have more caring responsibilities as well. The current prison system - including reentry programs like mine, and programs in prison, etc. - are based around the male inmate paradigm. Even women's prisons that have added "Moms and Babies" programs mostly just tack on those sorts of things because they have to deal with pregnancies. Much like mental health is sort of tacked on for men AND women.

So what's my point? That prisons (and reentry programs, the entire system), if they desire to be more than just punishment and actually rehabilitate the inmates, need to be more responsive to trauma, to parenting skills, to mental health issues, etc. Ideally not just women's prisons, but men's prisons too. But women's prisons do particular disservice to their population due to the different pathways to crime women take. Most mental health services in prisons are for the men, because most inmates are men. In the parolee population though, based on the sample in my area women have much much higher rates of mental health problems than men, there are just far fewer of them when it comes to numbers.

We've talked about adding a trauma class at work, and I think it's a really good idea. I'd support it being available for both men and women, but I'd be implementing it for the women's program not because I disregard men, but because the studies show that it's a higher risk factor for men than it is for women.

The 4 major risk factors we look at are Antisocial attitudes, Antisocial Peers, Criminal History and Behavioral Characteristics (mental health falls in to this category.) Because "studies" show that these are the biggest risk factors. But for women, Employment/ Education is a much higher risk factor, it actually bumps Peers down from the Top 4. For men, work and school is actually in the second tier of risk factors. Not because work isn't important, but because it has less to do with WHY they go to prison. But the research done, those "studies", were all done on men, so we're not responsive enough to the needs of the women in the program.


Tl;dr: So for all my rambling, I believe it's responsible for programs to use the best current research, but not to ignore that that research may not apply to the entire population. Research done on women shows the ways to best address criminal behavior in women and the same with men.

That doesn't mean women should get more lenient sentences, or that being a victim in their past excuses current behavior. It does mean that providing a trauma group in prisons or in reentry programs might improve the intended outcome by lowering recidivism.

/soapbox
I'll elaborate on whatever people want.

 

[dust1n]

If the reasons given are somewhat legitimate, then it would be somewhat blurry as to what equality is for me. I'm already quite aware there is no such thing as equal punishment for equal crime. There are no equal crimes, there has never been equal punishment.

But is the goal equal treatment of men and women for ultimately unequal outcomes, or unequal treatment for equal outcomes?

 

[Drolefille]

If the reasons given are somewhat legitimate, then it would be somewhat blurry as to what equality is for me. I'm already quite aware there is no such thing as equal punishment for equal crime. There are no equal crimes, there has never been equal punishment.

But is the goal equal treatment of men and women for ultimately unequal outcomes, or unequal treatment for equal outcomes?

Welcome to the primary question of the corrections field - is the goal punishment, rehabilitation, separation from the community or some combination thereof?

While rehabilitation can be effective you have to spend money on it, and in the numbers we have currently that is a LOT of money. As it stands, IMO, prison is mostly separation from the community (where you put younger inmates with older more experienced at crime inmates and they learn how to be "better" at crime). And with the lack of rehabilitation, you end up with a population effectively permanently branded with the felony conviction who end up in a perpetual cycle of crime and imprisonment.

In any large institution you aren't going to be able to individually respond to everyone, but you can respond better to the populations - low, medium and high risk; youth; men/women; drug crimes vs violent- on an aggregate level. There will always be people who fall through the cracks but there is so much room for improvement.