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Should Western governments end no fault divorce?

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by danieldemol, Jun 3, 2022.

  1. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Hollywood has produced many such.

    In cases of abuse, infidelity, abandonment etc. There is fault. The ease with which the arrangement that protects the child is abandoned is concerning. Top 7 places to get a quickie divorce - AvvoStories

    In as little as 30 days. You'd be hard pressed to get a new appointment with a dentist or therapist that fast.

    There are good reasons for divorce, but making it too casual it costing our society massively.
     
  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Evidence for the argument?
     
  3. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    And that only to a degree, but even if dad is great with the money kids need more than just food and clothes.
     
  4. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    from the summary of Popenoes book


    It might work okay for mom and dad, but its bad for Jr. (on average there are many great blended families out there).

    "living with one natural and one step parent 40 times as likely to become a child abuse statistic." citing Carl N. Degler, at odds (8-9).

    § The effect of not having the biological father in the home is devastating to children emotionally, socially, and psychologically. Based on the research findings, a strong case can be made that paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment today. Social research traces increased levels of crime and delinquency, premature sexuality and out-of-wedlock pregnancy, the growing rates of child abuse and many other social problems to fatherlessness. Children of divorce and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure. Even remarriage and step-parenting do not heal the wounds.

    § Step families. (33)

      • 75% of divorced men remarry.
      • What divorced fathers do instead of parent their own children is to parent their stepchildren; commonly called "transient father syndrome", "serial parenting", and "child swapping."(33)
      • Far from providing a solution to the erosion of fatherhood, stepfamilies are very much a part of the problem. Step fathering acts very much to diminish contact between fathers and biological children. *(33)
      • In these new families, stepfathers take a less active role in parenting than do typical custodial biological fathers. *(33)
      • "Even after two years disengagement by the stepparen,t disengagement is the most common parenting style...characterized by low levels of involvement and rapport, and a lack of control, discipline, and monitoring of the stepchild's behavior and activities."*(33)
      • 62% of remarried women under age 40 will eventually divorce. 10% of remarriages without stepchildren and 17% with children end in divorce within 3 years. (33)
      • Not only is the quality of' family life in step families typically inferior to that of biological-parent families, but the children of step families face a greater chance of family breakup than they did in their original families. *(33)
      • 15% of children will go through two family disruptions before coming of age. *(33)

      § Children have a strong desire to grow up with both a father and a mother. (8)

      • In order to succeed socially and psychologically, children must have strong stable attachments to their parents. Parents are the people who will have the strongest motivation to provide time and attention to children that they need to feel loved. (5)
      • "The relationship [between family structure and crime] is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime."(9)
      • "Paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment in America today.”*(9).
      • "Children of step families don't do better than children of mothers who never remarry.”*(9)
      • "Living in a single-parent family impacts negatively on almost all aspects of a child's life."(57)
      • Effects of divorce and living in a single-parent family are so closely intertwined that in many studies the two factors are combined or are virtually inseparable. (57)
      § Children of divorced and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure than the children of widowed mothers. (21)

      o Having a married father is even worse for a child than having a divorced father.(23)

      o Fatherless children mostly grow up without a "protector"; without good role models (for sons) and male-relationship models (for girls); without positive models of mother-father interaction; without the kind of supervision that fathers can provide...The social damage done by fatherlessness has seriously frayed our social fabric...Fathers are probably more important in childbearing today than ever before. (77)

      § Children of mother-headed families are the very poorest of the poor.

      o Single-parent families have less that 1/3 the median per capita income of children from two-parent families;

      o Half of them fall below the poverty line (55)-

      - 73% of children in single-parent families have lived some period of time in poverty by age 18 vs. 20% of children in two-parent families. (55)

      - 22% of single-parent families will experience persistent poverty vs. 2% of two-parent families. (55)

      § Children who grow up with only one biological parent are

      • 3 times more likely to have a child out of wedlock. (56)
      • 2.5 times more likely to become teen mothers. (56)
      • 2 times as likely to drop out of high school. (56)
      • 1.4 times more likely to be out of school and work. *(56)
      • 2-3 times more likely to have emotional or behavioral problems. *(57)
      • Children living with single mothers or with mothers and step fathers were more likely to have repeated a grade of school, to have been expelled, and to have elevated scores for health vulnerability. *(57)
      • Women who have spent time in single-parent families as children are more likely to marry and bear children early, to give birth before marriage, and to have their own marriages break up. *(57)



    § Children have a strong desire to grow up with both a father and a mother. (8)

    • In order to succeed socially and psychologically, children must have strong stable attachments to their parents. Parents are the people who will have the strongest motivation to provide time and attention to children that they need to feel loved. (5)
    • "The relationship [between family structure and crime] is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime."(9)
    • "Paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment in America today.”*(9).
    • "Children of step families don't do better than children of mothers who never remarry.”*(9)
    • "Living in a single-parent family impacts negatively on almost all aspects of a child's life."(57)
    • Effects of divorce and living in a single-parent family are so closely intertwined that in many studies the two factors are combined or are virtually inseparable. (57)
    § Children of divorced and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure than the children of widowed mothers. (21)

    o Having a married father is even worse for a child than having a divorced father.(23)

    o Fatherless children mostly grow up without a "protector"; without good role models (for sons) and male-relationship models (for girls); without positive models of mother-father interaction; without the kind of supervision that fathers can provide...The social damage done by fatherlessness has seriously frayed our social fabric...Fathers are probably more important in childbearing today than ever before. (77)

    § Children of mother-headed families are the very poorest of the poor.

    o Single-parent families have less that 1/3 the median per capita income of children from two-parent families;

    o Half of them fall below the poverty line (55)-

    - 73% of children in single-parent families have lived some period of time in poverty by age 18 vs. 20% of children in two-parent families. (55)

    - 22% of single-parent families will experience persistent poverty vs. 2% of two-parent families. (55)


    § One problem of divorce-effects research is causation...McLanahan aptly summarized...the prevailing view: "While some of the problems associated with single parenthood predate parents' separation, others do not. On balance the average child does worse, not better, after a divorce. "* Much of the "worse," it is fair to add, is caused by fatherlessness. (59)

    o Children of divorce perform more poorly on a number of assessments(57)-

    - Parents' ratings of hostility toward adults, peer popularity, nightmares, and anxiety.

    - Teachers' ratings of school-related behavior and mental health including dependency, anxiety, aggression, withdrawal, inattention, peer popularity, and self-control.

    - Scores in reading, spelling, and math.

    - School performance indices including grades in reading and math as well as repeating a school grade.

    - Physical health ratings.

    - Referral to the school psychologist.

    - The negative differential effects of divorce on children and young adolescents were long term."*(57-58)


    There's a bit
     
  5. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    I put a few notes in the other thread. I've got 22 pages of summary from 1 book, but it can's get pasted in one spot.
     
  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Perusing the internet, I don't see him applying
    the same analysis to the alternative to divorce,
    ie, forcing the marriage to continue.
    Banning or inhibiting divorce has consequences....
    - Abandonment without either spouse being able to remarry.
    - Forcing mutually hostile people to continue marriage.

    To advocate for one alternative while ignoring the
    other isn't really analysis...it's bias confirmation.
    And then there's the liberty question, ie, should we
    give government the power to enforce marriages
    between adults when their feelings change?
    I'm loath to give government that much more power.
     
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  7. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Any place we draw a line has risks.

    frankly given the relative ease with which abandonment or infidelity can be done, it’s not a supper high bar. And again his suggestion is for it to only be when minor children are in the home.

    The enforcement of a legal contract is one of the few valid powers of government. The child benefits from that contract. And as we see the cost to society is massive also. Making the exiting of the contact a challenge seems reasonable compared to most other regulations now in place.
     
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    But the total deleterious effects of risks
    must be quantitatively compared.
    I haven't personally encountered any couple who
    wanted to end a marriage with children cavalierly.
    I know 1 childless couple who ended theirs because
    they just fell out of love. So I'm skeptical that it's
    a significant problem.
    When contracts run counter to public
    policy, courts will invalidate them.
    In a divorce involving children, a judge
    would ensure children's welfare.
     
  9. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    None of this demonstrates the usefulness of at fault divorce.

    Could you at least consider the question and the replies to the question before providing walls of irrelevant text?

    In my opinion.
     
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  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    'The recent research conducted by Trinder et al (2017) demonstrates that use of the fault-based facts can have a destructive impact on families and can promote conflict and acrimony. Furthermore, the fact that fault is required for the divorce petition, yet is very rarely relevant in financial remedy proceedings, can cause confusion for parties. There is no ascertainable purpose for the state requiring petitions to be based on fault. Indeed, the evidence suggests that requiring parties to allocate blame can have a detrimental impact on children, which is something that the state should avoid at all costs.'
    Source: https://prdsitecore93.azureedge.net...77b791a&hash=32FE16ED0D474C8D30C050E17ACBF1B8

    And they still retain irretrievable breakdown as the sole ground for divorce.

    I've added the UK government consultation in for reference purposes, and because I think it provides a logical reasoning for why fault divorces go against the best interest of children;
    https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digi...reducing-family-conflict-consult-response.pdf

    In my opinion
     
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  11. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    If they were unwilling, they shouldn't have gotten married. I'm not talking about a shotgun wedding (lol, two of my ex-coworkers just had one and I feel really sorry for the baby boy).
     
  12. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Yep. It is much too easy to get married. There should be more restrictions on it.
    Remember: marriage is the main reason for divorce.
     
  13. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    I think people need to remember the purpose of marriage - to provide a stable framework for having and raising children and to build a life together. It's not going to be easy, and you may well fall into disdain or even hatred for each other at times, which is usually caused by communication breakdown over a period of time. That's how relationships are. They are complicated and messy, even more so when you consider a relationship consisting of having children and spending decades together. Infatuation is not love, and passion may fluctuate. Fancy weddings and big diamond rings are not love. Sex is not the ultimate expression of love and people need to stop worshipping it as the most important aspect of a relationship. People need to remember these things if we are to fix the current mess, imo.
     
    #53 Saint Frankenstein, Jun 8, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
  14. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    How are kids being harmed by divorce not relevant?
     
  15. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    That wasn't knowable at the time.
    Divorce happens because marriage changes for the worse.
     
  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    To be clear, I definitely believe there are grounds for divorce in certain cases. If your spouse is beating you or your kids or otherwise physically abusing you or them - sure; if your spouse abandons you and is never heard from again - sure; if your spouse constantly cheats on you with others - sure. Situations like that, they've already broken the vows at that point. Even Catholics would believe there's cases where marriages become nullified. I just think it's far too easy these days, like what we see with celebrities as an example.
     
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I'll let'm divorce for any reason.
    But then again...I'm one of those libertarians.
     
  18. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    To me, it really depends on if there are children involved or not. If there's children, it should not be so easy, unless situations like what I mentioned are present.
     
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  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Being reasonable, eh.
    That'll get you dinged by staff.
     
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  20. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    That's true, although they do take an oath and sign a contract. If they don't believe they can carry through with such a commitment, then they should think twice before making it.

    After all, they say "till death do you part" at wedding ceremonies. If they were actually held to that promise, then that would probably cause people to sit up and take notice.
     
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