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Should Western governments end no fault divorce?

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by danieldemol, Jun 3, 2022.

  1. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    But when the tradition marriage builds upon is no longer there it is useful to rethink the role and function of marriage.
    I don't know Australian tax laws but many countries offer married couples the option to file joint taxes which can be a seizable monetary benefit. On the flip side, the government expects the couple to support each other, i.e. a married person is not eligible for social security when their partner can provide for them.
     
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  2. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps it would give some marriages a second chance if it was eliminated. I think often people try to fix temporary problems with permanent solutions. Everyone of my siblings that married are now divorced except me, but there were good reasons. IMO, the " worthy" reasons are infidelity or abuse. I had a friend who was divorced three times and he said that someone finally said to him "maybe it's you, Jim," and that was quite the revelation. It's never" no fault "
     
  3. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Actually it’s a big factor in massive human suffering and poverty.
     
  4. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane My own religion

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    Yeah, if you accept your single factor model. I don't.
     
  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Inability to divorce has also been a big factor in massive
    human suffering & poverty. BTW, there's an article about
    this in the latest issue of Smithsonian. Very interesting history.
     
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  6. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Lots of views very little data.


    For example most people remarry after a divorce (at least in the US). Step dads are scary on average. The risk of the kids being abused is 40x what it is if mom and dad stayed together.
     
  7. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Single factor model. That’s funny. Children maltreatment and related brain damage is hardly a single factor.
     
  8. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Fatherhood research AKA stable families.(short version the system wont accept 22 pages)

    § The effect of not having the biological father in the home is devastating to children emotionally, socially, and psychologically. Based on the research findings, a strong case can be made that paternal deprivation has become the most prevalent form of child maltreatment today. Social research traces increased levels of crime and delinquency, premature sexuality and out-of-wedlock pregnancy, the growing rates of child abuse and many other social problems to fatherlessness. Children of divorce and never-married mothers are less successful in life by almost every measure. Even remarriage and step-parenting do not heal the wounds.

    Fathers teach children two key character traits: self-control and empathy. People with antisocial and criminal tendencies lack both. The single-mother's predicament to provide effective parenting in this regard is borne out by social science findings. Boys who are father deprived early in life are likely to engage later in rigidly over compensatory masculine behaviors. The incidence of crimes against property and people, including child abuse and family violence, is relatively high in societies where the rearing of young children is considered to be an exclusively female endeavor.
    For men, more than for women, marriage and parenthood are strongly interlinked. Men need cultural pressure to stay engaged with their children, and that cultural pressure has long been called marriage.
    Fathers have a unique and irreplaceable role to play in child development. Fathers are not merely would-be mothers. The two sexes are different to the core, and each is necessary—culturally as well as biologically—for the optimal development of a human being.The most important and enduring dimension of fathering has to do with a child's feelings. Children need to feel recognized and accepted by their fathers; they need to feel that they are special. More than just needing their fathers, children need a committed male and female couple--a mother and a father in a joint partnership—to provide them with dependable and enduring love and attention at least during their growing-up years. Biological fathers are more likely to be committed to the upbringing of their own children than are non-biological fathers. Human beings invest more readily in genetically related persons than in non-related persons. Being a father is much more than merely playing a social role. Engaged biological fathers care profoundly and selflessly about their own children, and such fatherly love is not something that can be transferred easily or learned from a script."Epidemiological studies and social surveys have shown that marriage has a civilizing effect independent of the selection factor (men who are willing to marry already have civilized virtues). It is not just that particularly healthy and competent and morally upright persons are more likely to marry, but that marriage actually promotes health, competence, virtue, and personal well-being.” *(76)In one of Cleveland's rough inner-city neighborhoods Responsible Fatherhood and Family Revitalization has reunited over 2,000 absent, unwed fathers with their children. Contrary to the standard theory of first finding a man a job in order to make him into a responsible father, this project has focused on convincing these men of the importance of being a good father resulting in *(76)-
    - Increase from 12% being employed full-time to 62% with another 12% employed part-time. (76)
    - 97% began to provide financial support for their children. (76)
    - 71% had no additional children out of wedlock.*(76)
    § Trait differences include-
    Aggression and activity level; cognitive skills; sensory sensitivity; sexual and reproductive behavior.(10)
    • While male proficiency rests with "things and theorems," female proficiency rests with personal relationships.(11)
    • Females most want to be "cherished" by their mates, males most want to be "needed" by theirs.(141)
    § Differences in fathering and mothering behaviors include-

    • Mothers are more able to read an infant's facial expressions, handle with tactile gentleness, soothe with the use of voice.*(11)
    • Mothers provide comfort and emotional acceptance with toddlers while men are more active and arousing in nurturing activities, foster certain physical skills and emphasize autonomy and independence. (11)
    • With older children fathers play is more likely to involve a rough-and-tumble approach.* Mothers tend to be responsive, fathers firm; mothers stress emotional security and relationships, fathers’ competition and risk taking; mothers express more concern for the child's immediate well-being, fathers concern for the child's long-run autonomy and independence.(12)
    § Both approaches are important for children in developing the need for affiliation with others while learning also to be independent. They need both "roots" and "wings"; one parent who encourages to risk, another who comforts when they fall short.(12)

    § Men and women can take on each other's part. However, most men and women are not predisposed or well-motivated to take on even temporarily the behavior and attitudes of the other sex. Most children want and need and can easily detect the real thing. Fatherless children are therefore at a distinct disadvantage. (12)

    o Social changes including—

    - Economic changes including women's employment opportunities, and earning ability.(43)

    - Government incentives that reward people for being unmarried rather than married. This "welfare effect" is relatively modest (5.4% of population is receiving subsidies through AFDC).(44)

    - Pushing aside traditional "Victorian" values of self-sacrifice, commitment to others, and institutional obligation, and adopting self-fulfillment as the dominant life goal. One of the reasons is the decline in institutional (church, government, education, and especially marriage) confidence.(45)

    - Development of an anti-institutional frame of mind and skepticism of authority.(46)

    - Development of an overly individualistic society resulting in personal alienation and a breakdown in social control of individual behavior.(48)

    The decline of fatherhood is one of the most basic, unexpected, and extraordinary social trends of our time.(3)

    • From 1960 to 1990 the percent of children living apart from biological fathers doubled (from 17% to 36%).(3)
    • US divorce rate = 50%.(5)
    • 40% of all children do not live with their biological fathers.*(19)
    • Of children born in the past decade, 50% will not be living with both biological parents by age 17.(19)
    • Father absence is a major force behind crime and delinquency; premature sexuality and unwed pregnancy; deteriorating educational achievement; depression; substance abuse; poverty.(3)
    • Marriage and the nuclear family are the most universal social institutions in existence. "Legitimacy of children is another cultural universal."(4)
    § The Unattached Male. Society is heavily dependent on men being attached to a strong moral order centered on families, not only to help raise children but to discipline their own sexual behavior and to reduce their competitive aggression. Family life is a considerable civilizing force for men.(12)

    o A high proportion of male criminals are unattached.(13)

    o "Do we really want a society filled with single men, unattached to children, leading self-aggrandizing and often predatory lives?”(13)

    o "The decline of fatherhood and of marriage cuts at the heart of the kind of environment considered ideal for child rearing. Such an environment… consists of an enduring two-parent family that...provides a great deal of quality contact time between adults and children...”(14)

    § Reasons for growth of fatherlessness include divorce, out-of-wedlock births, non-marital cohabitation, and sperm-donor fathers (20); divorce and non-marital births are the main culprits.(192)


    § Step families. (33)

    • 75% of divorced men remarry.
    • What divorced fathers do instead of parent their own children is to parent their stepchildren; commonly called "transient father syndrome", "serial parenting", and "child swapping."(33)
    • Far from providing a solution to the erosion of fatherhood, stepfamilies are very much a part of the problem. Step fathering acts very much to diminish contact between fathers and biological children. *(33)
    • In these new families, stepfathers take a less active role in parenting than do typical custodial biological fathers. *(33)
    • "Even after two years disengagement by the stepparen,t disengagement is the most common parenting style...characterized by low levels of involvement and rapport, and a lack of control, discipline, and monitoring of the stepchild's behavior and activities."*(33)
    • 62% of remarried women under age 40 will eventually divorce. 10% of remarriages without stepchildren and 17% with children end in divorce within 3 years. (33)
    • Not only is the quality of' family life in step families typically inferior to that of biological-parent families, but the children of step families face a greater chance of family breakup than they did in their original families. *(33)
    • 15% of children will go through two family disruptions before coming of age. *(33)
     
  9. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Fault divorce does not divorce, you just need a good reason before you traumatize the kids. Popenoe 2 tier system would place protections for kids and leave childless homes free to split up over toothpaste tubs and whatever other excuses peruse to end their marriages
     
  10. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane My own religion

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    That it is that they are fatherless, is the single factor explanation. What you mention are effects.
     
  11. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    childhood trauma is the core issue. Fatherless is the strongest predictor of it.
     
  12. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane My own religion

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    Yeah, but maybe how to solve that has nothing to do with fixing being fatherless as such.
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I see the parties involved as best understanding
    their own reasons for divorcing, whether it's hating
    each other, fearing each other, abandonment, child
    abuse, or simply wanting to move on to a better
    relationship with someone else.
    Courts handle assigning obligations to children.

    To dismiss reasons as toothpaste issues is....
    BohOOHoohOOHooohOOOOHoooohOOOOhoooohgus!
     
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  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Fine with me. Should've never been legalized in the first place, imo. People need to take marriage as seriously as it needs to be. But that's going to take a lot of work. I think most people have screwed up expectations of what a relationship is about these days.
     
  15. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    People who marry young generally have no clue
    about marriage. Love & lust conquer all...including
    rational thought & a sense of planning for the future
    with all it's dangerous possibilities.
    So forcing couples to remain married no matter what
    their differences won't teach young'ns caution. It'll
    just impose misery on the mistakenly married masses.

    As I see it, if you want to stick it out in a hate filled
    marriage, that's your option...if the spouse is willing.
    But it's not your right to impose it upon others.
     
    #35 Revoltingest, Jun 8, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
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  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    We "impose" a lot of things on others through laws, so let's not go there. Lol.
     
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Some things are worth imposing, eg, punishment for murder.
    Others are not, eg, enforcing marriage upon the unwilling.
    These are generally accepted values in our society, outside
    of Bible thumpers (who believe divorce is inherently wrong).
     
    #37 Revoltingest, Jun 8, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
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  18. Sand Dancer

    Sand Dancer Crazy Cat Lady

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    People do marry and bury in church there. It's just a place to have a service. You already have to go through the government to get the license. I assume it's that way in Europe too, but maybe I am wrong.
     
  19. Sand Dancer

    Sand Dancer Crazy Cat Lady

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    Sadly, 75% of kids don't see their dad a year after the divorce. You can't force people to want to be there, but you can force them to at least provide money.
     
  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I notice a lack of data for that claim.
    Have links?
    I observe something entirely different.
    Relationships after the first (a learning experience)
    are generally better...more stable, less strife.
     
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