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Should we recreate religions / cultures that require nomadism

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I watched half of a joe rogan podcast the other day with jordan jonas, where at one point, the guest talked about living with elk herders in some remote part of siberia, I think. I'll listen to the other half on my walk today

So he briefly alluded to a few things that I find very striking, and I want to tie them into social and theological theory. As you know, we suffer from a myriad array of social issues, with rampant unhappiness of one kind or another. Our western spiritual traditions also seem partly based on a skepticism for society, as opposed to perceiving life as an adventure. For example, the bible seems to deal with the problems that involve cities and empires more and more as the book progresses, but no one conglomerates anywhere for long in nomadism

This guest on rogan talked about how he 'dreamed better' when herding elk, about how his memory was better, and about how his body & mind seemed to be more engaged with the world, with nature. Then he talked about how there were people there who starting living in villages, and about how like 1 out of 3 were dying of alcoholism or suicide.. All of this drives home the point to me, that a nomadic lifestyle of herding ungulates probably fits human physiology like a glove

My proposition is that we find a middle ground between living this way and technological advancement. In nomadically herding the ungulates, we find natural discipline in serving ourselves and the earth. We engage in taboos that I suppose would align most with the 'spiritual' category, for our artificial separation from nature is broken, and a new sense of respect for it will naturally grow within us. Hence a religion is created, where man is no longer separate from soil and night star, and he can no longer deny himself as a humble organism embedded between them

However, the realm would still be dotted with hospitals, libraries, and nasa facilities etc. And the rarer people who wanted to inhabit those places could, and would serve to smooth out the natural lifestyle of the public, as well as advance the separate human technological adventure.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
I watched half of a joe rogan podcast the other day with jordan jonas, where at one point, the guest talked about living with elk herders in some remote part of siberia, ....

I think the problem with that would be that humans would eventually form large groups that would be like a locust horde that destroy everything that they find. In my opinion it would be better to arrange living in garden like state where people can sustainable take care of that they have enough food. I think the problem in modern life is not the cities, but the life style that requires people to spent and work more than what is necessary. It would be much better, if the point of work is to get enough food and to have some nice/sufficient place where to live. I think meaning of life should be something else than to work for governments so that they get much money and power.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I think the problem with that would be that humans would eventually form large groups that would be like a locust horde that destroy everything that they find.

I think the problem in modern life is not the cities, but the life style that requires people to spent and work more than what is necessary. It would be much better, if the point of work is to get enough food and to have some nice/sufficient place where to live.

These difficulties are met, I suppose, with my continual attempts to discern the potentially powerful concept of Animism

In Animism, you listen to the voice in Nature. Many people have tried doing this for the past 100,000 years, but many complexities eventually forced many of them out of it. When the religion is theologically healthy, in my view, you are not above nature, and you do not have dominion over the trees and snakes etc., but you instead must humble yourself to it, continually. Any leadership that the individual might gain in the context of greater nature, is earned and not innate. With this as a solid foundation, people do not form 'locust hordes,' for you can see that this religion / philosophy would entail the moderation of reproduction. Instead of 'be fruitful and multiply,' I would insert a clause stating to 'find your niche.'
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...When the religion is theologically healthy, in my view, you are not above nature, and you do not have dominion over the trees and snakes etc… …philosophy would entail the moderation of reproduction. Instead of 'be fruitful and multiply,' I would insert a clause stating to 'find your niche.'

I think people have the dominion in any case, because they have the power to destroy all life, or to take care of all life. And I think reproduction is basic human right that should not be limited in any case, against persons own will.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I think people have the dominion in any case, because they have the power to destroy all life, or to take care of all life. And I think reproduction is basic human right that should not be limited in any case, against persons own will.

People have the right to do what they want, sure, but I'm talking about people who would choose to follow a religion that integrates humans with Nature. Your bible, to the best of my knowledge, seems to assume endless resources will be available, if only the book is followed.

Beyond that, think about how commonly we hear about child abuse, divorced parents, and financial hardship in raising kids. One hears so much about all of this, so why shouldn't we want these stories to be rare instead of common ? It shows that it's something people can barely handle, besides the earth not liking it, and so I shouldn't have to hear a story about a rough upbringing from ever other person I meet. In my conception of a theologically sound Animism, this is not a 'fallen world' where human growth doesn't matter. Though again, I think it's something that people would have to choose, so it wouldn't be against their will.. I should have wrote 'advocate' instead of 'require' in the thread title I suppose
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I watched half of a joe rogan podcast the other day with jordan jonas, where at one point, the guest talked about living with elk herders in some remote part of siberia, I think. I'll listen to the other half on my walk today

So he briefly alluded to a few things that I find very striking, and I want to tie them into social and theological theory. As you know, we suffer from a myriad array of social issues, with rampant unhappiness of one kind or another. Our western spiritual traditions also seem partly based on a skepticism for society, as opposed to perceiving life as an adventure. For example, the bible seems to deal with the problems that involve cities and empires more and more as the book progresses, but no one conglomerates anywhere for long in nomadism

This guest on rogan talked about how he 'dreamed better' when herding elk, about how his memory was better, and about how his body & mind seemed to be more engaged with the world, with nature. Then he talked about how there were people there who starting living in villages, and about how like 1 out of 3 were dying of alcoholism or suicide.. All of this drives home the point to me, that a nomadic lifestyle of herding ungulates probably fits human physiology like a glove

My proposition is that we find a middle ground between living this way and technological advancement. In nomadically herding the ungulates, we find natural discipline in serving ourselves and the earth. We engage in taboos that I suppose would align most with the 'spiritual' category, for our artificial separation from nature is broken, and a new sense of respect for it will naturally grow within us. Hence a religion is created, where man is no longer separate from soil and night star, and he can no longer deny himself as a humble organism embedded between them

However, the realm would still be dotted with hospitals, libraries, and nasa facilities etc. And the rarer people who wanted to inhabit those places could, and would serve to smooth out the natural lifestyle of the public, as well as advance the separate human technological adventure.
In my opinion there's a strong subtextual message that runs throughout the Tanack/Old Testament suggesting that the God of the Bible/Tanack has always been in favor of man remaining in a nomadic lifestyle:

---- Abel was a keeper of sheep and would have been a nomadic herdsmen, Cain was a tiller of the Earth and therefore would have led a sedentary lifestyle.

Able received the blessing from God, Cain didn't.

---- after killing Abel, Cain goes on to found the very first city.

--- the story of the Tower of Babel (which didn't actually include a tower in its original writing) tells a story of people coming from all over and working together to create something huge (civilization?).

God says, " Uh uh" and baffles their speech, twarting the project, and leaving everybody with no choice but to go back to being nomadic.

---- Abram leaves the city (Ur) and immediately starts having a one-on-one relationship with God himself.

This relationship continues through three generations up until the moment that Jacob and his people enter Egypt, that is: up until the time they abandon their nomadic lifestyle and become City dwellers.

--- At this point nothing is heard from God for 400 years, until. . .

--- another member of the Hebrews, Moses leave the city and becomes a nomadic herdsmen.

At this point the one-on-one relationship with God, the ability to actually communicate directly with Him, resumes.

--- the 12 tribes are led out of Egypt, become nomadic once again, and suddenly God is all up in their faces every step of the way for the next 40 years.

--- miracles remain commonplace throughout the Book of Judges right up until the time that the Hebrews demand a King for themselves, that is: right up until the time that they establish a central authority, ie. Civilization.

The story also makes it clear that this was something God was opposed to.

--- at this point, with the exception of the story of David (who began his life as a shepherd) we don't see a whole lot of evidence of God intervening directly in anyone's life or communicating all that clearly until we meet Elijah, a man who spends his life wandering in the wilderness apart from civilization.

Then were introduced to the strong dichotomy of civilized man versus natural man: Ahab vs Elijah, man of the world versus man of God.

The message seems pretty clear to me.
---
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I watched half of a joe rogan podcast the other day with jordan jonas, where at one point, the guest talked about living with elk herders in some remote part of siberia, I think. I'll listen to the other half on my walk today

So he briefly alluded to a few things that I find very striking, and I want to tie them into social and theological theory. As you know, we suffer from a myriad array of social issues, with rampant unhappiness of one kind or another. Our western spiritual traditions also seem partly based on a skepticism for society, as opposed to perceiving life as an adventure. For example, the bible seems to deal with the problems that involve cities and empires more and more as the book progresses, but no one conglomerates anywhere for long in nomadism

This guest on rogan talked about how he 'dreamed better' when herding elk, about how his memory was better, and about how his body & mind seemed to be more engaged with the world, with nature. Then he talked about how there were people there who starting living in villages, and about how like 1 out of 3 were dying of alcoholism or suicide.. All of this drives home the point to me, that a nomadic lifestyle of herding ungulates probably fits human physiology like a glove

My proposition is that we find a middle ground between living this way and technological advancement. In nomadically herding the ungulates, we find natural discipline in serving ourselves and the earth. We engage in taboos that I suppose would align most with the 'spiritual' category, for our artificial separation from nature is broken, and a new sense of respect for it will naturally grow within us. Hence a religion is created, where man is no longer separate from soil and night star, and he can no longer deny himself as a humble organism embedded between them

However, the realm would still be dotted with hospitals, libraries, and nasa facilities etc. And the rarer people who wanted to inhabit those places could, and would serve to smooth out the natural lifestyle of the public, as well as advance the separate human technological adventure.
There is no place for the artificial creation of nomadism in a world with 7 billion people.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
In my opinion there's a strong subtextual message that runs throughout the Tanack/Old Testament suggesting that the God of the Bible/Tanack has always been in favor of man remaining in a nomadic lifestyle:

Thanks for writing all that.. I'll have to look for this sub-text more myself, next time I read in that direction

Let us know how that works out for you.

Should work good I would hope.. the scientists get on with their important research and advances, and leave the public alone. The common public is concerned with following spiritual taboos that benefit the earth, as opposed to work that involves unsustainable growth and material production. The scientists are concerned with progress alone, without a strong sense of economy in their way
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Indeed, well there is no reason why we can't moderate reproduction, spirituality that integrates us with nature might easily advocate for this
You do understanding that moderating reproduction is antithetical to natural? Natural wants you to have as many offspring as possible. In the natural world, your sole purpose of being is to procreate.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
You do understanding that moderating reproduction is antithetical to natural? Natural wants you to have as many offspring as possible. In the natural world, your sole purpose of being is to procreate.

In nature there is something called r and K selection. The existence of this would not make sense if balance was not the purpose, in my view. Otherwise, whales would have have as many young as mice for example, or elephants would lay hundreds of eggs.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In nature there is something called r and K selection. The existence of this would not make sense if balance was not the purpose, in my view. Otherwise, whales would have have as many young as mice for example, or elephants would lay hundreds of eggs.
None of which has anything to do with the fact that human beings are naturally overpopulating the planet.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I don't think we can go back now and you can't possibly tell me you would give up all the benefits of modern life. What we need is technology that doesn't harm the environment. Also, I think we're ultimately headed to the stars but we need to clean up our act on Earth first. Humanity needs to grow up.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I don't know, are a lot of those benefits really headaches.. I suspect a lot of modern people lead stressful lives
That's mostly due to the excessive individualism, wage slavery and inherent inequalities of free market capitalism. All that can be dealt with while still having homes and technology.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I don't think we can go back now and you can't possibly tell me you would give up all the benefits of modern life. What we need is technology that doesn't harm the environment. Also, I think we're ultimately headed to the stars but we need to clean up our act on Earth first. Humanity needs to grow up.
To be really honest, there is part of me that is sympathetic. I'm not interested in a nomad lifestyle, but I'm lured by the idea of life with a reduced population -- much smaller towns, raising animals or hunting, small family farms... Without giving up the advantages of modern living such as electricity and modern medicine.

But all of this depends on somehow radically reducing the world's population. Apparently not even a plague like Covid19 is going to make the kind of dent I'm talking about. I don't have an answer.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
To be really honest, there is part of me that is sympathetic. I'm not interested in a nomad lifestyle, but I'm lured by the idea of life with a reduced population -- much smaller towns, raising animals or hunting, small family farms... Without giving up the advantages of modern living such as electricity and modern medicine.

But all of this depends on somehow radically reducing the world's population. Apparently not even a plague like Covid19 is going to make the kind of dent I'm talking about. I don't have an answer.
I'm sympathetic, too, but just don't see it as realistic. I'm not sure overpopulation alone is the problem as advanced societies are wrecking the environment much more than developing societies, where the population growth is highest. Much of their population growth is probably offset by deaths from disease and violence, anyway.
 
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