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Should we Question our Beliefs

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What is the purpose of truth if one is to learn their faith? Learn and proof definitions are different.

The role of Christian truth, not truth as a whole, is to learn more about god and your purpose to follow. Knowledge rather than ignorance strengthens your faith, hopefully, so you are comfortable with it? You ask?

Finding Christian truth for proof of it is not questioning for knowledge. It this context it means learning New information in order to confirm and support the factual nature of knew faith. When there is NO doubt, it's saying you know everything.

Without self analyzing to support ones belief, its blind faith by definition.

While many christians are comfortable with that, I'd assume those who are comfortable in their faith are not. It doesn't mean you are doubting as if you are questioning god. You are questioning to gain more understanding for information that may be unclear to you or false by your Mental reasoning.

That's very different than a seeker questioning for proof. But sometimes the Christian gets defensive as if we are falling them seekers are ignorant all because they take their faith at face value.

Might I ask? What is the role of TRUTH in one's effort to learn {"prove"????} ones faith.

Can I as, are these quotes memorized? I always wanted to ask (no one answered) because they distract your point. If you want to quote do it in two or three line segments so we can read (and have time to dead) what your talking about and why you quote. Also, summarize big chunks of scripture and sources. Unless it's a scripture discussion I assume no one reads these long quotes. It's highly repetitive among RF members and very distracting.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
A belief that is not questioned is not freely chosen. Indeed, it is not chosen if one doesn't know the options. People only familiar with their own faith have not made a choice.
Rom 10:17,

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith clearly does not come by questioning one's ideas. It comes via a knowledge of the scriptures.

How many options must one ferret out before coming to a conclusion? Can one even know all options? I think Romans is a much more plausible explanation of how we get faith. No point in complicating something that is pretty simple and straight forward.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Rom 10:17,

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith clearly does not come by questioning one's ideas. It comes via a knowledge of the scriptures.

How many options must one ferret out before coming to a conclusion? Can one even know all options? I think Romans is a much more plausible explanation of how we get faith. No point in complicating something that is pretty simple and straight forward.
The more options one is familiar with, and I mean really understands the point of view, the more free the choice. If the ONLY thing one hears is the Christian gospel, then one isn't choosing it. One is only accepting it, which is NOT the same thing.

The early Christians grew up knowing a pagan world view, absolutely immersed in it. They truly chose to be Christian. One cannot say the same thing for those growing up in pseudo Christian cultures today.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
The more options one is familiar with, and I mean really understands the point of view, the more free the choice. If the ONLY thing one hears is the Christian gospel, then one isn't choosing it. One is only accepting it, which is NOT the same thing.

The early Christians grew up knowing a pagan world view, absolutely immersed in it. They truly chose to be Christian. One cannot say the same thing for those growing up in pseudo Christian cultures today.
I wasn't born with a Bible in my hands. I don't think anybody was, but that's beside the point. I was born again at the age of 21 or so. Prior to that I thought the Bible was, well, what most pagans think about it, because that's pretty much what I was. I was officially Catholic, but effectively a pagan, at least as much I could get away with. So, you see, it is a fully informed choice I've made.

But you must have chosen at some point to reject the scriptures. What is it you discovered in your study of the scriptures that led you in that direction? I know there are plenty of reasons. I'm just curious as to what you yourself didn't like about them.
 

Patrick Miron

Patrick4Jesus
What is the purpose of truth if one is to learn their faith? Learn and proof definitions are different.

The role of Christian truth, not truth as a whole, is to learn more about god and your purpose to follow. Knowledge rather than ignorance strengthens your faith, hopefully, so you are comfortable with it? You ask?

Finding Christian truth for proof of it is not questioning for knowledge. It this context it means learning New information in order to confirm and support the factual nature of knew faith. When there is NO doubt, it's saying you know everything.

Without self analyzing to support ones belief, its blind faith by definition.

While many christians are comfortable with that, I'd assume those who are comfortable in their faith are not. It doesn't mean you are doubting as if you are questioning god. You are questioning to gain more understanding for information that may be unclear to you or false by your Mental reasoning.

That's very different than a seeker questioning for proof. But sometimes the Christian gets defensive as if we are falling them seekers are ignorant all because they take their faith at face value.



Can I as, are these quotes memorized? I always wanted to ask (no one answered) because they distract your point. If you want to quote do it in two or three line segments so we can read (and have time to dead) what your talking about and why you quote. Also, summarize big chunks of scripture and sources. Unless it's a scripture discussion I assume no one reads these long quotes. It's highly repetitive among RF members and very distracting.

Sincere thanks for sharing this; however; like ya'll I HAVE ti move as the Spirit Mioves me. And I believe your statement that I highlighted may be incorrect, which is precisely what I asked about TRUTH.

God Bless you,
Patrick
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I wasn't born with a Bible in my hands. I don't think anybody was, but that's beside the point. I was born again at the age of 21 or so. Prior to that I thought the Bible was, well, what most pagans think about it, because that's pretty much what I was. I was officially Catholic, but effectively a pagan, at least as much I could get away with. So, you see, it is a fully informed choice I've made.

But you must have chosen at some point to reject the scriptures. What is it you discovered in your study of the scriptures that led you in that direction? I know there are plenty of reasons. I'm just curious as to what you yourself didn't like about them.
I don't know how you can be Catholic and "effectively pagan," unless you are not following the teachings of the Catholic church. I'm wondering if you've been snookered by protestant churches into thinking that Catholicism is pagan when it's not.

People who teach this don't have a clue what paganism is. They have never explored what animism/mana really is, and how this primitive sort of beief develops into true polytheism. Catholics recited the Nicene Creed at every Mass, which begins with the words, "I believe in ONE GOD." Iow they are not polytheists. "Maker of heaven and earth." Iow they aren't pantheistic or panentheistic. No paganism there.

You would be surprised just how many people are raised in religious homes. Not you perhaps, but certainly a great many. And those raised in non-religious homes are still raised in a society (at least here in the US) that is culturally still Christian in most ways (obviously this is changing, but I would still say the culture is based on Christian assumptions, not pagan ones).

I am very different than most people because I have studied religions from all over the world -- comparative religion is the name of my game. I personally practice Judaism, the religion of my people. But I have an appreciation for the rest, and am very open to non-Jews choosing a variety of different paths. I admit I'm biased in favor of those paths which see God (however they define he/she/it) as One. I understand the paths that see multiplicity, but IMHO that multiplicity is not strictly real.

I see enormous good in Christianity, despite its troubled history, especially it's emphasis on Love. What I reject is its exclusivism, that it is the ONLY way, and that everyone who makes a different choice is rejected by God and tortured forever in Hell.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
I don't know how you can be Catholic and "effectively pagan," unless you are not following the teachings of the Catholic church. I'm wondering if you've been snookered by protestant churches into thinking that Catholicism is pagan when it's not.
I was simply saying that despite being raised Catholic that included 12 years of Catholic school, I didn't believe nor practice most of what I was taught.

People who teach this don't have a clue what paganism is.
You are right about that. I was using a fair amount of litterary license in the statement. I was playing to what the average person thinks about paganism, not what it actually is. I was just saying I liked to party more than go to church.

You would be surprised just how many people are raised in religious homes. Not you perhaps, but certainly a great many. And those raised in non-religious homes are still raised in a society (at least here in the US) that is culturally still Christian in most ways (obviously this is changing, but I would still say the culture is based on Christian assumptions, not pagan ones).
Excellent point. I say the same thing all the time. That is precisely why everybody "knows" what the scriptures say without ever having actually studied them for themselves. People know Roman Catholic doctrine and tradition, but very little actual scripture. Suffice it to say, the two are as far apart as East from West. The Protestants are not much different, thanks largely to the National Council of Churches. For starters they all believe in three gods. They say it's just one god with three persons that are the same in substance but different in person, or some such nonsense. It doesn't make any sense at any rate. Three is three and one is one. God of course is one god and not three gods. The upshot is that it is virtually impossible to make any sense out of a book when the two (and some nebulous third) characters can't be kept straight.

I am very different than most people because I have studied religions from all over the world -- comparative religion is the name of my game. I personally practice Judaism, the religion of my people. But I have an appreciation for the rest, and am very open to non-Jews choosing a variety of different paths. I admit I'm biased in favor of those paths which see God (however they define he/she/it) as One. I understand the paths that see multiplicity, but IMHO that multiplicity is not strictly real.
Yes! I'm not that interested in opinions (even yours I'm afraid), but yours happens to align with the scriptures, in which I have much interest. The scriptures say multiplicity is not at all real. Not one bit!

Deut 6:4,

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
If words mean anything at all, God is one, not three.

I see enormous good in Christianity, despite its troubled history, especially it's emphasis on Love. What I reject is its exclusivism, that it is the ONLY way, and that everyone who makes a different choice is rejected by God and tortured forever in Hell.
Christianity provides a way for someone to be born again in this lifetime (John 14:6). At that moment the scriptures declare that person righteous (Rom 3:22, as righteous as God Himself) and justified (Rom 3:24). In fact it declares that spiritually the born again believer is already seated in the heavenly realm (Eph 2:6, not past tense "hath"). It is very true that the only way to do that is by confessing Jesus (His son, a man and not a god, 1 Tim 2:5 et. al.) as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10).

However that in no way means everybody else will spend eternity in torment. That is an absurd invention of the Catholic Church, primarily to keep people "in line" and the coffers full. The book of Revelations speaks about two different judgments. In both God will judge people, not so much by their actions, but by their heart (1 Sam 16:7, Rom 2:2, et. al.). Man is quick to condemn another who does not act in accordance to some perceived standard of perfection. God doesn't do that. He understands that we are human and that it is quite impossible to go through life without breaking the commandments. We do that pretty much every day, multiple times a day. He understands we can't help doing so. A dog barks, a cat meows, a cow bellows, and people sin. It's nature. He's a kind God and as such is quite capable of looking beyond the action and look instead on the heart. Very few actually want to sin. We just can't help it and God knows that better than I ever could. I would guess that the vast majority of humankind will pass muster and enjoy eternity in paradise. We'll see.

I know I quoted a lot from the New Testament which often brings railing accusations from my Jewish brethren. I in no way expect and certainly don't demand that anybody believe the scriptures. I simple say what they say. I mean no harm or ill will to anybody. I suspect you, having studied many religions, may not have such a strong reaction as I've received in the past. I understand perfectly well that if it weren't for the Jews I wouldn't be where I am with God. Romans chapters 9-11 address that issue. Far be it from me to judge Israel. They made my salvation possible. Jesus didn't come by way of Esau. No Jacob, no Jesus, and I'm sunk!

Like I said, God judges by the heart, and you and He are the only ones that know your heart. I don't even want to get involved in judging you or anybody else. It's a messy business indeed.

Rom 2:1-2,

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
We're all in the same boat, so it's best not to point fingers at one another. My mother used to say that when I point one finger at somebody else I'm pointing three back at myself. Smart woman she was!
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hi rrobs. Very, very good to hear from you again. I find our conversation quite pleasant.

I was simply saying that despite being raised Catholic that included 12 years of Catholic school, I didn't believe nor practice most of what I was taught.
Got it. :)

People know Roman Catholic doctrine and tradition, but very little actual scripture.
There is no excusing Catholics who tune out their own scripture readings at Mass, but I don't think that is the fault of their Church. Every Mass has three readings and a psalm. That's actually pretty good.

For starters they all believe in three gods.
That is hardly a fair assessment. I don't believe in the Trinity obviously, but I understand the Christian teaching and it is a form of monotheism. Christians profess to a faith in One God, not three gods.

It's not a lot different in Hinduism, where there is one true Divine, Brahman, and three expressions of that Divine: Brahma (no n), Vishnu, Shiva. Brahman is not some other god in addition to these three; rther the three ARE Brahman. They call this a Trimurti.

So the idea is not limited to Christianity.

They say it's just one god with three persons that are the same in substance but different in person, or some such nonsense.
Please don't take offense, but doesn't matter if you consider it nonsense; Trinitarianism is the accurate theology that Christianity teaches. I don't accept it either. I believe that God is Echad (one). But I'm a Jew, so it's not up to me to tell Christians what they do and don't believe.


However that in no way means everybody else will spend eternity in torment.
So you think that the New Testament doesn't teach exclusivism?

BTW, the Catholic church teaches that there are those who are not Catholic, who are not even Christian, who are still part of the Church. I think Pope Francis said that even an atheist might be saved.

I know I quoted a lot from the Christian Scriptures which often brings railing accusations from my Jewish brethren.
Well it doesn't bother this Jew. I've read a lot of sacred scriptures from most of the World Religions (am currently studying the Analects). I think there are beautiful parts of the Christian Scriptures. But just realize that I don't grant them any more authority than I grant to the Vedas or the Quran.

Like I said, God judges by the heart, and you and He are the only ones that know your heart. I don't even want to get involved in judging you or anybody else. It's a messy business indeed.
Thank you. I very much appreciate you saying that.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
There is no excusing Catholics who tune out their own scripture readings at Mass, but I don't think that is the fault of their Church.
I don't judge any individual or member of any denomination. It is an institutional problem. The priest is only teaching what he learned from his professor who learned from his professor, etc. For the most part, nobody can go beyond what they are taught.

That is hardly a fair assessment. I don't believe in the Trinity obviously, but I understand the Christian teaching and it is a form of monotheism. Christians profess to a faith in One God, not three gods.
Out of one side of the mouth they say there is one god. Out of the other they say god the father, god the son, and god the holy spirit, which sounds like three gods to me. There is a lot of clever verbiage used in an attempt to reconcile the two highly contradictory ideas, but three is three and one is one. In order to accept the trinity one must divest themselves of all logic and rational thinking.

It's not a lot different in Hinduism, where there is one true Divine, Brahman, and three expressions of that Divine: Brahma (no n), Vishnu, Shiva. Brahman is not some other god in addition to these three; rther the three ARE Brahman. They call this a Trimurti. So the idea is not limited to Christianity.
All of which preceded Christianity. I imagine some enterprising young pseudo religious individuals realized they could increase membership, and revenue, in the Christian churches by allowing these folks to import their trinities into the doctrine. That's conjecture, but probably not far off. In any case, Christianity does not takes it's doctrine from other religions. It should come from the scriptures, which clearly say God is one.

Please don't take offense, but doesn't matter if you consider it nonsense; Trinitarianism is the accurate theology that Christianity teaches. I don't accept it either. I believe that God is Echad (one). But I'm a Jew, so it's not up to me to tell Christians what they do and don't believe.
No offense taken. You are right, it doesn't matter what I think about anything at all. Nor, you, the pope, or anybody else. The scriptures themselves are the sole rule of faith and practice. They have much to say on God being one.

So you think that the New Testament doesn't teach exclusivism?

No. Salvation is open to anybody.

1Tim 2:4,

Who (God) will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
"All men" is pretty inclusive. Oh boy! The fact that it says "men" without saying "women" also, is bound to offend many in our enlightened age. Think culture. Their's was different. It's only been the last 50 years at most that people get offended by such verbiage. People used to understand what was meant.

BTW, the Catholic church teaches that there are those who are not Catholic, who are not even Christian, who are still part of the Church. I think Pope Francis said that even an atheist might be saved.
I don't give the pope any authority when it comes to truth. However, in this case Pope Francis' thinking lined up with scripture. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that God will judge according to one's heart and not their outward actions.

Well it doesn't bother this Jew.
I didn't think it would, judging by your objective study of all religion. You seem secure in your beliefs and able to accept that other people think differently without blowing a fuse!

I've read a lot of sacred scriptures from most of the World Religions (am currently studying the Analects). I think there are beautiful parts of the Christian Scriptures. But just realize that I don't grant them any more authority than I grant to the Vedas or the Quran.
You can probably guess I feel somewhat different on that point. But I'm glad your brought it up.

John 17:17,

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
You might be able to help in on something relating to this verse. The scriptures boldly claim to be the truth. Is there any similar direct assertion in the Vedas of Quran? I won't be surprised either way, I'm just curious. I've looked for myself and haven't seen it, but I have to admit I've not read, let alone studied, either text in any detail.

Take care...
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Out of one side of the mouth they say there is one god. Out of the other they say god the father, god the son, and god the holy spirit, which sounds like three gods to me.
Again, that is doing them a disservice. They will be the first ones to admit that Trinitarianism is counter-intuitive. They will say that it is normal for you to struggle with it. I believe they have a story about one of their saints trying to fill up a hole in the sand with water being like trying to understand the Trinity. Yet they DO NOT teach three gods, and it would be a misrepresentation for you to say that they do.

All of which preceded Christianity. I imagine some enterprising young pseudo religious individuals realized they could increase membership, and revenue, in the Christian churches by allowing these folks to import their trinities into the doctrine. That's conjecture, but probably not far off. In any case, Christianity does not takes it's doctrine from other religions. It should come from the scriptures, which clearly say God is one.
Your cynicism is distorting your perception of history. The issue of how Jesus became God in Christian theology is of particular interest to me as a Jew. Without going into detail, the Council of Nicea surrounded the teachings of Arius, who believed that Jesus was not God. Orthodox teaching was that he was God, but this opened the possibility that there was polytheism (i.e. that Jesus was a demi-God, as he was in Semi-Arianism). Trinitarianism resolves the dispute, however counter-intuitively by teaching what Jesus was NOT:
1. only a man
2. a second (or third) deity

The scriptures themselves are the sole rule of faith and practice. They have much to say on God being one.
How very Protestant of you. :) The truth is that the Christian Scriptures are vague on the point, which is why there are so many different interpretations (what most Christians would call heresies).



No. Salvation is open to anybody.
The question is not whether salvation is open to anybody, but what is the criteria. Your verse only states that Salvation is open to everyone. It doesn't state that all are saved. What happens to Hitler? Is he saved from eternal Hell? (Or Gehenna/Temporary Hell or reincarnation or whatever...) Cliche I know, but apropos. If not everyone is "saved," then there is criteria, and we need to know what that criteria is. I would say that the Christian Scriptures teach that the criteria is belief.



I'm pretty sure I mentioned that God will judge according to one's heart and not their outward actions.
I think intent of the heart is what matters with belief. I'm not sure it supplants actions. The Nazis thought they were doing good, but they did evil, and will inevitably pay.


Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
You may not have thought about it, but Jesus identified scripture as "Moses and the prophets," not the Bible as you have it today.

The Vedas and other writings of the East don't claim to be the end all and be all. But cerainly the Quran and the Book of Mormon are supposed to be the word of God.

Shalom my friend!
 
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