Should We Argue with Psychotic People?

[Quagmire]

Sleep deprivation... massive sleep deprivation and many other issues.

Seems to be a common malady among RFers. Wonder to what extent we post because we can't sleep, or visa versa.

 

[dybmh]

Seems to be a common malady among RFers. Wonder to what extent we post because we can't sleep, or visa versa.

I've learned a lot in those hours...

 

[Quagmire]

I absolutely think we should argue with psychotic people. I would guess that a lot of psychosis is the result of an isolated mind recycling it's own unchallenged opinions.

We need other people and their opinions in order to gain perspective.

I believe everything my head tells me until I go to say it out loud in front of another person, or to post it here.

I think we need other people to challenge us since most of us are so terrible at challenging ourselves.

 

[Eddi]

I would guess that a lot of psychosis is the result of an isolated mind recycling it's own unchallenged opinions.

Yes - this!

 

[dybmh]

Yes - this!

It fits for me too.

"an isolated mind recycling it's own unchallenged opinions."

 

[Left Coast]

Might i possibly be one of those you believe to be "strongly" and "actively psychotic"?

I know that in the past I've had a couple of psychotic episodes play out on RF...

But I'm not big headed enough to assume I'm one of those you are referring to, I know I'm not one of the more high-profile members of RF

And BTW, I think psychotic people should be argued with

Arguing with them can be a good way of giving them a reality check

...but not always - but it's always worth a try I suppose...

Thanks for your input! You're not one I had in mind, but I appreciate your insights as someone who has endured psychotic episodes.

 

[Quagmire]

It fits for me too.

"an isolated mind recycling it's own unchallenged opinions."

I used to think I knew everything until I came here and started thinking out loud.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am in no position to "diagnose" anyone, especially over the internet.

However, FWIW, if I suspect that someone might be suffering from some sort of mental illness, I will refrain from continuing dialogue with them. My suspicion, all by itself, would change the way I approach such conversations, and it's possible I could do real harm. Therefore, best stand back and say nothing.

Please don't. That would mean you'd have to not have any conversations with me.

 

[Eddi]

Thanks for your input! You're not one I had in mind, but I appreciate your insights as someone who has endured psychotic episodes.

Well, you've only been here since April so I suppose you'd have missed my RF psychotic episodes...

Basically: I was convinced I was a Messiah - and after that fell through, a kind of chosen one, living in a computer simulation like in The Matrix films etc.

People challenging me on these things really helped me

And I've always been open about my diagnosis on these forums

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Well, you've only been here since April so I suppose you'd have missed my RF psychotic episodes...

Basically: I was convinced I was a Messiah - and after that fell through, a kind of chosen one, living in a computer simulation like in The Matrix films etc.

People challenging me on these things really helped me

And I've always been open about my diagnosis on these forums

That may be, but reading yours and another member's posts were a great jump start for getting me to join. They were interesting.

 

[Eddi]

That may be, but reading yours and another member's posts were a great jump start for getting me to join. They were interesting.

That's nice to hear

 

[Left Coast]

We should assume they are adults who are here or their own volition, making their own choices, own decisions, own will, remember this is the internet and just accept what we see in print is all we have, and treat them as such. And remember, there is a stark difference among debate, argue, and the ridicule and mockery towards those with mental illnesses I have seen here. If someone is here, we should treat them no differently than we would anyone else.

All fine points. That said, if someone tells me they've been diagnosed with a mental disorder, my inclination is going to be to believe them unless they've given me reason to think they're lying, especially if their behavior conforms to that diagnosis.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

All fine points. That said, if someone tells me they've been diagnosed with a mental disorder, my inclination is going to be to believe them unless they've given me reason to think they're lying, especially if their behavior conforms to that diagnosis.

Still, to me it shouldn't change much. I neither want to be treated with total glory and honor, or with total ridicule.

 

[Left Coast]

I neither want to be treated with total glory and honor, or with total ridicule.

I agree, of course. Humans are complicated and no one should be treated one-dimensionally. The question is how to respond helpfully to people with severe mental illness, which I don't think involves ridiculing them or putting them on a pedestal.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I agree, of course. Humans are complicated and no one should be treated one-dimensionally. The question is how to respond helpfully to people with severe mental illness, which I don't think involves ridiculing them or putting them on a pedestal.

I suppose that much IS an interesting question....

For people with anxiety, they don't *always* like being the center of attention.

People with depression need love and caring.

People who are schizophrenic sometimes need told not to do dangerous things.

People with PTSD, sometimes you have to avoid bringing up certain "trigger" subjects.

And so on and so forth.

 

[dybmh]

Still, to me it shouldn't change much. I neither want to be treated with total glory and honor, or with total ridicule.

Well... This is where I messed up...
I completely ignored what u were going thru in an effort to treat u like I would want to be treated...
I'm sorry.

What you're describing is balance. But I gave u oblivious... I ignored it... Classic avoidance...

 

[Left Coast]

I suppose that much IS an interesting question....

For people with anxiety, they don't *always* like being the center of attention.

People with depression need love and caring.

People who are schizophrenic sometimes need told not to do dangerous things.

People with PTSD, sometimes you have to avoid bringing up certain "trigger" subjects.

And so on and so forth.

Exactly. My thought with this thread was whether it is helpful to actively psychotic folks to try to argue them out of their psychotic thinking. A couple of posters have now got me thinking that, maybe it is?

 

[Eddi]

The question is how to respond helpfully to people with severe mental illness, which I don't think involves ridiculing them or putting them on a pedestal.

That's a good question, and I'm not sure how I'd approach it but I'll try anyway...

I think by showing respect and concern for the individual whilst constructively challenging their psychotic beliefs - to test how firmly they hold them? - by challenging the beliefs whilst showing compassion and concern for the individual, and letting them know you are sympathetic to them as a person, whilst refusing to be dragged into their delusions?

So, basically, by being nice to them whilst challenging their delusions and trying to convince them to abandon or modify them?

Although granted, some individuals are probably too far gone for this...

 

[exchemist]

A couple of disclaimers to start:

1) I'm using the word psychotic clinically, not just casually as we sometimes do in English. Psychosis is an umbrella term for mental disorders where a person has difficulty distinguishing what's real from what's not. There's a difference between just being wrong about something, and actually being psychotic. Please, no trolling or cheap potshots in this thread, e.g. "Yea, all Democraps are psychotic! Har har!"

Psychosis: Symptoms, Causes, and Risk Factors

2) As someone who works in healthcare and has specifically worked in the mental health field, I have great sympathy and respect for people who struggle with mental illnesses, including psychotic disorders. Also, I know from experience that with treatment, many of these folks can lead healthy, productive, fulfilled lives and can be quite intelligent. For purposes of this thread, I'm talking specifically about folks who are untreated and/or actively psychotic.

With that said:

There are a few folks on RF who, in my unlicensed lay opinion, I believe strongly are actively psychotic. I come to this conclusion from the sorts of bizarre things they post and occasionally because they even admit from time to time to prior diagnoses, encounters with the mental health system, etc. Psychotic people often have religiously-themed hallucinations and delusions, so it's not surprising that folks in this condition would be attracted to the relative safety and anonymity of posting their thoughts to a religiously themed Internet forum.

I also notice that other posters at RF will engage and try to debate with these folks. It worries me that this is an ineffective and possibly counter-productive strategy for addressing people in this condition, as it may feed paranoid delusions of persecution, delusions of grandeur, etc. At the same time, I'm also not sure how effective it would be to say, "You seriously need help, see a psychiatrist ASAP." So my personal strategy when seeing posts/threads by these folks has just been to ignore them and avoid fueling the fire.

What do you think? What is the best/most helpful approach with these folks? Should we try to reason with them? Should we tell them to seek help?

Yes there is a handful of people here who are obviously nuts. On the science forums I am familiar with, such people would fairly quickly be banned, if only to avoid them being ridiculed by people who have not realised they are mentally ill. But this place seems to be more tolerant, and I have to say it seems to work by and large. The members seem to work out who to respond to and who to leave alone and nobody systematically persecutes someone who obviously is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. (I myself have a substantial Ignore list, partly for that reason.)

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Well... This is where I messed up...
I completely ignored what u were going thru in an effort to treat u like I would want to be treated...
I'm sorry.

What you're describing is balance. But I gave u oblivious... I ignored it... Classic avoidance...

If you're talking about what happened between us in the distant past, it's cool. I'm not exactly the same person as then 100%. So if you ever feel the need to PM me about anything, I won't feel triggered about it.

If you mean something now, I haven't been paying attention to problems or the lack thereof. So I wouldn't know.