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Should we allow this in Europe?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
In a Baptist Church in Holland I went to, they had a program "Pray the gay away". They got it from America (I just heard about the prayer, never saw a book with. But must have been there.

They think gay is okay if you don't practise

So they want all gay become Christian priests

But not one of those Christian priests making frontpage news this year
Why, by your understanding, are those teachings not making much advance there?
 

Bob Jones

Prove It!
Those islaamic teachings? Sure they are.

This is a perfect example of the often-overlooked significant contrasts between Islaam and Christianity these days.

Christianity has very similar, and arguably literally the same points of doctrine in its tradition... but it allows itself to learn better, and for the most part it indeed learned better. European Christians are religiously mature enough to not fall prey to the poison that would otherwise fester from their doctrine.

Islaam literally forbids itself from learning sanity in a comparable fashion... and it shows. It also forbids trusting non-Muslims, although it is anyone's guess on how deeply that teaching takes root where there are mixed communities.

But of course, it is well documented that Muslims just don't mix very much at all, mostly because they refuse to even attempt to.

For all of its faults, Christianity has an enormously better track record in that regard.

Nor is it much of a secret that for the most part Muslim communities adopt the strategy (conscious or otherwise) of emphasizing that people should be left to their own devices and beliefs when the Muslim numbers are low. But as soon as the numbers rise (and Muslims are well known for their remarkable demographic growth) they start to expect political privilege and exception (as clearly demanded by the Qur'an, one should note).

Unfortunately, there is no way to appease such expectations without submitting to them. Islaam must be confronted in no unclear terms, although I can hardly trust the discernment nor the wisdom (such as it is) of the Right to materialize such a much necessary endeavor. It falls to the center and the left to accept and actualize the need of telling Muslims that they will not be allowed to destroy democracy no matter how sincerely they believe that God wants them to, nor how many voters they end up producing.
I have read two versions of the Quran and also the boring Hadith. Further, accepted commentaries. I found them to be a very distributing piece of religious literature.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I have read two versions of the Quran and also the boring Hadith. Further, accepted commentaries. I found them to be a very distributing piece of religious literature.
I would not call them religious, personally. Islaam is so very poor on religious content, and sabotates what little it has so effectively, that it can hardly be considered a religion. It can be said to cosplay as one, I guess.

But it is very much a doctrine; a very tribalistic, very imperalistic, very theocentric one at that. And yes, a very disturbing one.

Unfortunately, also a very widespread one, and one that has developed rather impressive strategies of antifragility that lend it entirely undeserved longevity and a superficial apperance of resilience.

One of those strategies is making a whipping boy out of the ahadith. Muslims both need the Ahadith and the Sira to make actual practical sense of the Qur'an and feel safe to disregard both whenever even slightly convenient, since they do not "come from Allah". They are in effect, whenever any question about the validity and worth and Islaam is raised, bad cops for the Qur'ans presumed "good" (albeit insane, authoritarian, retrograde and imperialistic) cop.

Frankly, it is all a sad waste of time that ends up distracting Muslims from the opportunity to develop even default levels of spirituality and morality. They would very much be better off without Islaam. But there is so much direct discouragement from admitting that even to themselves that ex-Muslims end up having to be clandestine.
 

Bob Jones

Prove It!
I would not call them religious, personally. Islaam is so very poor on religious content, and sabotates what little it has so effectively, that it can hardly be considered a religion. It can be said to cosplay as one, I guess.

But it is very much a doctrine; a very tribalistic, very imperalistic, very theocentric one at that. And yes, a very disturbing one.

Unfortunately, also a very widespread one, and one that has developed rather impressive strategies of antifragility that lend it entirely undeserved longevity and a superficial apperance of resilience.

One of those strategies is making a whipping boy out of the ahadith. Muslims both need the Ahadith and the Sira to make actual practical sense of the Qur'an and feel safe to disregard both whenever even slightly convenient, since they do not "come from Allah". They are in effect, whenever any question about the validity and worth and Islaam is raised, bad cops for the Qur'ans presumed "good" (albeit insane, authoritarian, retrograde and imperialistic) cop.

Frankly, it is all a sad waste of time that ends up distracting Muslims from the opportunity to develop even default levels of spirituality and morality. They would very much be better off without Islaam. But there is so much direct discouragement from admitting that even to themselves that ex-Muslims end up having to be clandestine.
I live in Europe so my freedom of speech is chilled. I must be politically correct or the thought control police may send me a fine through the mail!
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I have read two versions of the Quran and also the boring Hadith. Further, accepted commentaries. I found them to be a very distributing piece of religious literature.
So is the Bible, especially the OT. Thankfully, in both cases, most religious people aren't scriptural literalists. They’re actually practicing social constructs that have long developed from those initial beliefs. How else could there be so many vast different denominations, sects and schisms within each broad faith?

That isn’t to say that none of those denominations are without problems and the issue highlighted in the OP is one example of that. Those are best addressed not as scriptural or general religious problems though but as social and cultural ones, especially when they’re being addressed from outside that faith. After all, there are non-religious socio-political structures which are capable of causing the same kind of issues and are logically addressed in the same kind of ways.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Why, by your understanding, are those teachings not making much advance there?
Did I say that?

But now I see my line can be read in 2 ways. Sorry for confusion

1)But not one of those Christian priests making frontpage news this year

2)But not one of those "Christian priests making frontpage news this year"
I meant this second one

If you believe a homo is okay if he has no sex then you actually tell him to live a life as a priest, which most homos did not think of themselves, I think, after just having gone through all the trouble of being belittled and feelings not been accepted and being despised and what not.

So, I would not be surprised, that, after giving this homo an additional problem (no sex) added to the guilt feeling "you are mentally sick thinking you are gay" and adding the sin feeling "burn in hell forever" because God does not love you and even hates homos, this homo might indeed go crazy if he believes all this emotional blackmail and voodoo like mental brainwashing.

And the one who created all this BS in this homo might have added a new one to the list of:

those "Christian priests making frontpage news this year"

Not all have strength to live celibate. If a Christian forces this onto a homo the Christian created a lot of karma which he himself will have to face (according to Law of Karma)
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
Fundamentalist Christians are taught just the same, in far more schools, yet this is not mentioned. The number of muslim schools in the Netherlands seems to be about 50, out of several thousand. It is not clear that all of them distribute anti-gay literature.

This is just more of your nasty propaganda.

Yet when people post stuff about Christians in the US doing the same you are not in those thread spouting about "propaganda". It is mentioned all the time. Seems like it is a problem with what sources of media you use.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm all for making laws against homophobic school curriculum, but this is a really obviously slanted targeted attack at Muslims, instead of the more or less widespread homophobia among religious institutions.

Against Muslim schools, you mean. Which happens to be a legitimate concern, far as I see.

Or are you somehow challenging the claims in the OP?

Interesting that y'all suddenly care about the gays the moment you can use it to try to direct people towards targeting Islam (and Islam alone).

I for one have no use for your insinuation. I know for a fact that the shoe does not fit.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Presenting homophobia in schools as a predominantly Muslim phenomena is seriously slanted and obviously ideologically motivated.

Is it now? Why would you think that? What do you know that has escaped us?

I'd be in favour of legal restrictions on these schools, but OP is a very obvious attempt to feign concern about homophobia when really the goal isn't to prevent it, it's to attack Muslim schools.

It is a criticism of Muslim schools, for certain.

Are you claiming that it is in some sense illegitimate to criticize those?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
All my life I've hated the things that people said about me, and about other gay people like me. Lots of hateful stuff about people they actually know nothing about. I'm actually a pretty nice guy. Most of the gay people I know are pretty nice as well (although the large majority of the people I'm around most of the time is straight).

And yet, I'm a strong believer in free speech. If people say that the Bible condemns homosexuality, well they are not lying, are they? They're telling the truth, and the truth is never something to be afraid of. And I feel equally free to point out that I believe that the Bible was written by human beings, a long time ago -- human beings who were ignorant about many things we now take for granted, as we are undoubtedly ignorant about things future generations will take for granted -- whatever they might be.

Unless someone is directly inciting others to act unlawfully or harmfully, I feel that I must accept their right to speak their mind freely, as I expect others to accept when I speak freely on the opposite side.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Good news. Already today I see now news telling Christians do the same (against homos etc)

Minor difference. Christians do not teach that homos should be killed. Don't say apostate is worst sin (death penalty) etc

Also not teaching women not allowed outside unless permission of husband, and women must do sex deed even if they don't feel to do so (again woman MUST obey man).

And remember, they try to impose all of this in Holland. Country of gay pride joined by 1 million (sorry checked my facts, only 500 thousand spectators)

My opinion. No coincidence Muslims target Dutch schools with anti homo. We have biggest gay pride in Europe (I think, maybe world even). Did not check if this is true, not that important.

Important is that they try to sabotage our Dutch freedom of speech and expression of art (Muhammad cartoon contest) and other freedom.

But they wake up the Dutchies. Now Christian schools maybe need to let go similar bad practises. Matthew tells about not condemn others for what you do yourself also.

Holland will become more free I think. Thanks to the Muslims. Freedom can't be stopped (only temporary)
 
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Bob Jones

Prove It!
Good news. Already today I see now news telling Christians do the same (against homos etc)

Minor difference. Christians do not teach that homos should be killed. Don't say apostate is worst sin (death penalty) etc

Also not teaching women not allowed outside unless permission of husband, and women must do sex deed even if they don't feel to do so (again woman MUST obey man).

And remember, they try to impose all of this in Holland. Country of gay pride joined by 1 million (sorry checked my facts, only 500 thousand spectators)

My opinion. No coincidence Muslims target Dutch schools with anti homo. We have biggest gay pride in Europe (I think, maybe world even). Did not check if this is true, not that important.

Important is that they try to sabotage our Dutch freedom of speech and expression of art (Muhammad cartoon contest) and other freedom.

But they wake up the Dutchies. Now Christian schools maybe need to let go similar bad practises. Matthew tells about not condemn others for what you do yourself also.

Holland will become more free I think. Thanks to the Muslims. Freedom can't be stopped (only temporary)
Holland is one of the prototypes of Liberal fascism.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
No, I'm saying they spin every story to involve an anti-muslim/racist angle.
If they start running articles about white christian anti-gay bigots, then I'll take them much more seriously.
In this case however, the books these Dutch Islamic children were given to read in class were literally quoted.
And I can assure you that despite their distrust of gay life styles and discrimination against gay school teachers in their own schools, the orthodox Christian schools have no such text books for young children inciting hate against lhtbq+'s and so-called non-believers.

The irony of the matter is that these text books have been written by a former catholic lady (nun?) who has converted to Islam.
In the Netherlands many such Islamic schools are founded with large donations from countries with Salafism.
The Dutch government keeps saying that they wish to stop these money flows, but they don't really want to because of their business relationships with such repressively governed countries.

In neo-liberalism money is more important than morals.
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
I'm all for making laws against homophobic school curriculum, but this is a really obviously slanted targeted attack at Muslims, instead of the more or less widespread homophobia among religious institutions.
Interesting that y'all suddenly care about the gays the moment you can use it to try to direct people towards targeting Islam (and Islam alone).

Because Islam is not humble. Has no teachings on humility, as humility is shameful in Islam.

Christianity, and most other religions have humility.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Holland is one of the prototypes of Liberal fascism.
Fascism is about control others, not having personal freedom of expression and many more things. All just labels.

Now the goverments, with computers, know exactly all bank accounts and that is why they now create all these so called financial crisises. Just to be able to squeeze a little more out of the poor (they continue step by step making sure no revolution starts. Each year a few percents. Very smart. Rich enrich themselves)

World is about money and control. That is fascism. Yes the rich in Holland also play this sick game. As does USA and all the very rich elite.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
The government keeps saying that they wish to stop these money flows, but they don't really want to because of their business relationships with such repressive countries
They can't stop. In exchange for oil they agreed to accept Islam promotion in STRASBOURG Resolution 1975. Probably that's why they waited this long to have proof that Islam violated the Resolutions themselves.
 
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