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Should There be Compulsion in Religion?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.



Should there be compulsion in religion? Specifically...

Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?

Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?
What say you?




(Tan Weiwei sings of getting drunk and missing her deceased father. The song is profoundly autobiographical and took its toll on Tan Weiwei during rehearsals.)
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
That situation is equated to be a cult mentality.

Yet if once the religion used to be involved in human social orders, such as law and justice and medical in all one organization, then it would involve social conditioning if the spirituality of the person (thinking concepts) acted out against group morality in natural life.

Depends on what group you seek today to be involved with.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Yes, there should be compulsion in religion, just as in other communities.
I have often complained that the moniker "Christian" is a distinction without difference. They have foregone any compulsion.
Any club, any party, most organizations have at least some defining characteristics that you have to hold to or face expulsion. If you don't have those rules or don't enforce them, you loose the reason for being.
Antagonistic actors can and will enter your ranks and subvert your mission.
My house, my rules. You can follow them or leave.

But ...
this only applies to members who have willingly and knowingly entered the club, party, church. They have read the rules and signed the contract.
It doesn't apply to children, it doesn't apply to "members" who weren't aware of the fine print and it sure doesn't apply to third parties.
"I can't do this, it's against my religion." - OK.
"You can't do that, it's against my religion." - not OK.

And then there are cases were expulsion could cause undue hardship. When your whole life or living depends on the organization there should be a negotiation for transition and/or compensation.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.



Should there be compulsion in religion? Specifically...

Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?

Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?
What say you?...
Number 1 is complicated. Ideally any sort of group should have the right to de identify a member from within the group to without.

Where it becomes morally wrong is where members are shunned or undergo other hardship for being de-identified due to differing beliefs.

Number 2 is always wrong. A group at the societal level can tell you what laws to obey. But not force you to believe those laws are correct for example.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Compulsion sounds a lot like addiction. I vote emphatically, No!

Anything compelling better have a fruitful payoff.

I don't equate compulsion with compelling though. Stories compel, and sometimes that is entertaining.

Compulsion is always unpleasant, and I consider it addiction.

Compulsion lacks understanding of what you are doing.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?

No, I don't believe a religion should compel its members to share a set of beliefs. In my opinion, diverging opinions are necessary to prevent stagnation and inflexibility within a religion. If beliefs don't evolve and adapt with the times at least to some extent, that religion can quickly become more of a hindrance to its members (and potentially non-members) rather than a benefit.

Now there are a couple of caveats to this. Firstly that there comes a point wherein opinions could diverge to the extent that one can no longer realistically call themselves a member of the religion. For example, I don't believe in a single creator God, I don't believe Jesus was the son of that God nor do I believe he was the saviour of mankind. I also do not feel that I am obliged to uphold the moral tenets presented in the Bible and I certainly don't believe that they're applicable to humanity as a whole. I could go on but the point is, could I really call myself a Christian?

I will say that I don't believe somebody in a similar position should be threatened or even necessarily forbidden from joining in any services. I would argue its far better to privately discuss with them whether or not they would be happier outside the religious institution, rather than to threaten to kick them out. I feel that threats of that nature, even to people who can't really be viewed as a member of the religion at all, set a dangerous precedent. The most likely result that I can see is that it would have a chilling effect on other members who may well feel they can't express their own opinions and quandaries.

The other caveat is that I do feel it's reasonable to expel people who are genuinely disruptive. If I attended a church service and cried out, "That's bull manure! You're all idiots for listening to this cretin!" every time the priest mentioned God or Jesus, I think they would be well within their rights to ask me to leave and not come back.


Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?

No, I don't believe a religion should have a right to compel others to embrace its beliefs. I'm firmly secular in regard to incorporating religious doctrine into law and have no tolerance for violence or harassment perpetrated in the name of religion.

If there's a grey area in this, it lies in determining whether or not an action constitutes compulsion. Some of the milder forms of proselytisation spring to mind here. Posting an informational pamphlet through my door is irritating but no more so than any other form of junk mail. If that pamphlet implies I'll go to Hell if I don't accept [Insert deity or prophet of choice] then we start getting into murky waters. There's no threat to my person from that group but they're still telling me I'll suffer if I don't join. It's still just a pamphlet though and I could put it in the bin without even reading it. Whether or not that constitutes compulsion is something I can see arguments for either way.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Should there be compulsion in religion? Specifically...

Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?

Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?
What say you?

I don't think beliefs can be forced onto others even if a feigned show of belief can. This can however, over the long term, bring families and children into a belief system that their parents may not have even believed.
This sort of thing happens not only in religions however, and we can be shunned in society if we do not conform to certain behaviours and thoughts.
In religions, if a group wants to keep their membership pure in belief then I guess they should have the right to get rid of people who stray from that belief, but the way it seems to work out with "shunning" is that people who do not believe any more are almost compelled to pretend they believe unless they are prepared to be shunned by all their friends and family. It certainly can work out to be a cult tactic which pretends to be based on the Bible. But in the Bible I do not see anywhere that people who stop believing are shunned by anyone.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Should there be compulsion in religion? Specifically...

Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?

Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?

I would respond with an affirmative "no" on both accounts.

Religious belief is an affective and intellective act of the 'will', whereby a person attaches him or herself to a particular conception of truth as mediated through a symbolic / mythical system and (most likely) community rituals intended to bind members of the community together around this shared understanding of truth.

If a person is a raised in a given religious tradition and has been intiated into their creedal community through their entry rites, upon adulthood they are free legal persons: there should be no coercion exerted upon them by other people - whether parents, family members, friends or religious hierarchs - to try and elicit belief which violates their conscience and agency as an individual.

Should the supreme, all-loving, omnipresent and imperceptible God of revelation actually exist, would He truly wish to be served by unwilling devotees who offer Him worship without true faith, for fear of sanction, expulsion, shunning or punishment from the community in which they have been raised?

If such a God were the 'real' Deity, then He is a cosmic dictator unworthy of worship and Satan in the traditional Christian-Islamic story was wholly justified in disobeying and rebelling against his arbitrary will.

On the other hand, should a person freely consent to belong to a religious community and abide by its doctrines, this is where 'legitimate' but limited and proportionate religious coercion can come into play: inasmuch as a church, mosque, synagogue or temple community alone gets to decide who should 'qualify' as a member in good standing, in tandem with the rights and obligations which flow from the privilege of that membership.

In the Catholic Church, this is what "excommunication" means (notwithstanding is rarity of use in modern times anyway): an excommunicated person is not expelled from the community, shunned by family and friends or subject today to any civil consequences. He or she is not a person who has decided to stop attending Mass because he or she no longer believes in the Nicene creed (they have full immunity under law to do so if that is there inclination, even as their baptism - in the church's mind - makes them permanently a Christian in some spiritual sense) and wants to attach themselves to a different belief system.

Rather the excommunicated is a member of the church who wishes to remain a member and is still obliged to attend Mass etc. but is prohibited while at Mass from receiving the sacraments (the Eucharist, chiefly) because they have been deemed to publicly violate the 'rules' of the church to which they freely submit themselves, in some way. Excommunication is thus a purely religious penalty designed to act as a 'penance' for the excommunicatee, in the hope that they will reconcile themselves to the community. It does not expel them from the community (canonically, the excommunicated remains a Catholic), nor do Catholics practise shunning (indeed, the excommunicated person is obligated to still attend church, that is take part in our community rituals, just not put themselves forward for Holy Communion until the dispute with the church has been resolved).

But should a person at any time decide, of his own volition and reason, that he no longer believes in the faith of the community - the community must embrace him with respect and love, not shun or expel him from their company but rather accept that he/she no longer wishes to pay the tithe, attend mass or keep the sacred law (i.e. whatever obligations a religious community has) because he/she has attached themselves to another conception of truth and perhaps another community.

The second question goes without saying: of course their can be no compulsion or coercion of people outside of one's religious community!

I call such theopolitical projects by the name: "integralism". The sacerdotal impulse that seeks to impose one vision of "the Good" on society, undermine the institutions of secular, pluralist democracy and use the coercive instruments of state power on "believers" and "non-believers" is the same, no matter in what religion it crops up.

Protestants have "Dominionism", Catholics have "Integralism", Shi'ites have "Velayat-i-faqih", Marxist-Leninsts (a secular 'religion') have "dictatorship of the proletariat"....

In 2011 Pope Benedict XVI had condemned the ideology: "forms of religious integralism exploit religious freedom to disguise hidden interests, such as the subversion of the established order or the grip on power of a single group. Fanaticism, contrary to human dignity can never be justified, even less so in the name of religion."

The church Tertullian addressed this nearly 2,000 years ago:




Chapter Five moves back in time and from theory to application, revealing the potential and the limitations of natural law theory in an actual political setting. It analyzes the political rhetoric of Tertullian, the Carthaginian Christian theologian who argued, against Roman policy, for universal religious freedom, using the term libertas religionis perhaps for the first time on record.

This chapter provides a fresh reading of Tertullian’s writings as they concern religious freedom and related themes, drawing attention to his reliance on natural law argumentation. I analyze his epistemological commitments and link them to the commitments of the use of natural law by the other writers in the book. Finally, I argue that the effectiveness of Tertullian’s argument for universal religious freedom relied heavily on his use of natural law as a mediating device between human and divine law, with implications for the utility of natural law reasoning in a pluralistic public sphere
.​




"...Let one man worship God, another Jupiter; let one lift suppliant hands to the heavens, another to the altar of Fides; let one — if you choose to take this view of it — count in prayer the clouds, and another the ceiling panels; let one consecrate his own life to his God, and another that of a goat. For see that you do not give a further ground for the charge of irreligion, by taking away religious liberty, and forbidding free choice of deity, so that I may no longer worship according to my inclination, but am compelled to worship against it. Not even a human being would care to have unwilling homage rendered him..."

- Tertullian (155 – c. 240 AD), Early Church Father in Chapter XXIV.


CHURCH FATHERS: To Scapula (Tertullian)

"...It is a fundamental human right, a privilege of nature, that every man should worship according to his own convictions: one man's religion neither harms nor helps another man. It is assuredly no part of religion to compel religion — to which free-will and not force should lead us..."

- Tertullian (155 – c. 240 AD), Early Church Father in Ad Scapula, Ch. II


Christians typically look back with shame, especially Catholics, at our history - the times when we departed from the doctrine of religious liberty expounded by the Fathers, as in the Spanish Inquisition or the Baltic Crusades. Yet, our doctrine - for all that - still remained on paper.

I think St. Paul probably had a key role in this, where in his epistles he 'reconfigures' the focus (in a number of case) from thinking about Israel as a whole to speaking of 'individual' faith in Jesus on the part of 'individual' Jews and Gentiles. Consider his famous remark:

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.” (Romans 14:14) and in a slightly later verse of the same chapter: "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God" (Romans 14:22).

Paul supplemented this with a form of universalism and even proto-humanism: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28)

St. Paul redefined 'faith' in his letters as being one's own interior 'conviction' before God - which a person has for oneself and another person has no business judging. In this respect, its for the individual - not the 'people's' covenant with their tribal god - to decide if foods are 'unclean' according to their conscientious convictions, or if they are free to eat what they like (i.e. no kosher or halal).

Well, that puts a helluva onus on individual subjectivity in determining religious truth doesn't it?

Framed simply, the state should not be confessional or exercise coercion in religion. By contrast, Dignitatis Humanae (Vatican II's decree on freedom) affirms that: “the state exceeds the limits of its authority, if it takes upon itself to direct or to prevent religious activity” because it exceeds its remit by invading the free arena of personal conscience if it does so, which is subject to God alone. And if we look to Pope Nicholas I in his directive to the Bulgars in 866 we find that he tells the Khan of those who refuse Christianity: "violence should by no means be inflicted upon them to make them believe. For everything which is not voluntary, cannot be good". The Emperor Constantine, first Christian ruler of Rome, then enshrined this in the Edict of Milan (313): "we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, or of that religion which he should think best for himself".
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.
Should there be compulsion in religion? Specifically...

Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?

Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?
What say you?

According to Hindu beliefs, God-Ishwara is the leader of all paths, which It institutes as per the suitability of time and culture. With this as the background, authoritative Hindu teachers such as Late Shri Chandrasekhara Sarwasti of Kanchi mutt have written that changing one's religion (and so conversion too) is against the basic tenets of religions.

Most conversions happen through inducement or fear. IMO, there is very little religion in inducement or fear.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I am with Thomas Jefferson and trying to incorporate this into my paradigm:

"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
According to Hindu beliefs, God-Ishwara is the leader of all paths, which It institutes as per the suitability of time and culture. With this as the background, authoritative Hindu teachers such as Late Shri Chandrasekhara Sarwasti of Kanchi mutt have written that changing one's religion (and so conversion too) is against the basic tenets of religions.
Most conversions happen through inducement or fear. IMO, there is very little religion in inducement or fear.

It sounds like strict, hard line Hinduism is similar to Islam in this area and this is compelling people to be in a religion that they may not believe and compelling them to not join a religion that they may believe. It can be dangerous for a Muslim to convert to another religion and it can be dangerous for people of other faiths to proclaim their faith to Muslims in certain countries. From what I have heard, the same is true in various parts of Hindu India.
I have previously seen this state of affairs in Islam as associated with the religion and in Hinduism as associated with the people involved. Now I find out that it is part of Hindu belief also.
Yet certain Hindu groups do feel that converting others is a good thing and have followed that path in Western countries, especially from the 1960 on.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
It sounds like strict, hard line Hinduism is similar to Islam in this area and this is compelling people to be in a religion that they may not believe and compelling them to not join a religion that they may believe. It can be dangerous for a Muslim to convert to another religion and it can be dangerous for people of other faiths to proclaim their faith to Muslims in certain countries. From what I have heard, the same is true in various parts of Hindu India.
I have previously seen this state of affairs in Islam as associated with the religion and in Hinduism as associated with the people involved. Now I find out that it is part of Hindu belief also.
Yet certain Hindu groups do feel that converting others is a good thing and have followed that path in Western countries, especially from the 1960 on.

The basis of Kanchi Paramacharya's writing is that God is the leader of all paths. But what of conversion done through inducements or through fear? Are those okay? You seem to invert the whole concept of what is an imposition and what constitutes freedom.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
The basis of Kanchi Paramacharya's writing is that God is the leader of all paths. But what of conversion done through inducements or through fear? Are those okay? You seem to invert the whole concept of what is an imposition and what constitutes freedom.

I'm not sure how I inverted anything. However as regards conversion done through inducement or through fear I would say: If people are offering gifts as an enticement to convert or if people are threatening others with harm if they do not convert, then that would be akin to getting a confession through coercion or by offering a plea bargain for confession.
The confession or conversion may not be truthful.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.



Should there be compulsion in religion? Specifically...

Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?

Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?
What say you?




(Tan Weiwei sings of getting drunk and missing her deceased father. The song is profoundly autobiographical and took its toll on Tan Weiwei during rehearsals.)

No. And I would go further than that: It is hypocritical to say there should be no compulsion in religion while at the same time support doing a religious circumcision or cathecism on children. A lot of people think it is alright to make their religions compulsory on at least one group of people, they just don't like saying it.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Should your own religious group have a right to compel you (e.g. through threat of expulsion) to embrace its beliefs?
Yes... but only as long as the religious group is weak enough that it can't coerce you.

As Uncle Ben (Spider-man, not boxed rice) said: with great power comes great responsibility.

If your religious group is nothing more than a collection of like-minded believers, then sure: if you're no longer like-minded, then you're no longer in the group. Parting ways over a difference of opinions is fine.

OTOH, if your religious group controls your access to things like job opportunities, or your family, or social services (edit: or what you believe to be the means of salvation), then you aren't entirely free to leave. In these cases, the group's ability to use its coercive power to control your actions should be limited.

Should an outside religious group have a right to compel you to embrace its beliefs?
No.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No. And I would go further than that: It is hypocritical to say there should be no compulsion in religion while at the same time support doing a religious circumcision or cathecism on children. A lot of people think it is alright to make their religions compulsory on at least one group of people, they just don't like saying it.

I think that parents have the right to teach their kids what the parents believe. We all get brainwashed like that to an extent, and sometimes this does involve religious circumcision if part of the parent's beliefs.
I guess there could be differences between what current society sees as acceptable and what a person's beliefs see as acceptable and people may be forced to stop practices like circumcision.
No doubt societal demands on people can also be seen as compulsory imposition of beliefs at times also. In multicultural societies this can be problematic.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Most religions seems to use a punishment versus reward template.

It's kind of interesting when I was younger when I would go to church it would seem like when you leave everybody wanted to be a minister.

So you end up needing an allure, that single desire, maybe via the employment of a charismatic person of whom becomes the nexus for which compulsory ideology is based.

You build up something out of reach, something that is desirable and appealing, then you highlight obstacles and then challenge people to overcome those obstacles to acquire silly things such as enternal life, enlightenment, becoming Grand Puba, hitting the highest tier of immaculate incarnation of the divine holy merciful god of the mother of old holy Hill of the divine Happy Cow.

Now you got to think of the punishments like blasphemy or, being a non-believer and tainting the rest of the crowd, turning brother against brother mother against mother, excommunication tar and feathering and pure exile from that wonderful goal set up by the benevolent powers of be.

And there you have it. The recipe for compulsory religion.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I think that parents have the right to teach their kids what the parents believe. We all get brainwashed like that to an extent, and sometimes this does involve religious circumcision if part of the parent's beliefs.
I guess there could be differences between what current society sees as acceptable and what a person's beliefs see as acceptable and people may be forced to stop practices like circumcision.
No doubt societal demands on people can also be seen as compulsory imposition of beliefs at times also. In multicultural societies this can be problematic.

Teaching is one thing, forcing children into your religious practices is another.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Freedom of religion is freedom from compulsory religion.

When most people realize that they are the only ones driving their own ship, and that nobody else higher or lower is living their lives for them, then I will say that humanity has reached a sane reasonability.

There are lots of real reasons to be humbled without resorting to forceful compliance. Nothing sincere comes from forceful compliance.

If somebody doesn't understand what they are doing and have to comply in order to properly exist, well, that is abuse.
 
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