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Should the U.S. only do business with free countries?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Stevicus, Sep 20, 2021.

?
  1. Yes, we should only do business with the free countries (shown as green on map)

    4 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. We should do business with the green and yellow (Partly Free) countries, but not the purple (Not Fre

    1 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. We should not impose sanctions on any country for any reason

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. US foreign policy should be based solely on America's practical national interests

    2 vote(s)
    12.5%
  5. US foreign policy should be based on moral principles and how other govts. treat their people

    4 vote(s)
    25.0%
  6. The (green) free countries should all unify and shut out the partly free and not free countries

    1 vote(s)
    6.3%
  7. Other

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  8. Don't know/undecided

    3 vote(s)
    18.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I think it is politically useful for US regimes to pretend that they are acting on behalf of higher moral principles, but my understanding is that this is already an important element of US domestic propaganda.

    And the US is indeed exceptional - it is by far the world's strongest military power, maintains its biggest nuclear arsenal, and without doubt acts as the military and political hegemon of the Western world.
     
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  2. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    One thing I would say about Freedom House is that it was begun under the FDR administration, which is worlds apart from anything that has ruled America in more recent times.

    However, I'm not devoted to Freedom House or anything, so I'm certainly willing to look at and consider other surveys and measures of freedom in the world. I'm not too hep on anything from the Cato Institute.
     
  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Picking one...the Cuban revolution.
    That appears to be a rebellion independent of US commerce there.
    Can you pick one that was a direct result of US economic oppression?
     
  4. Aštra’el

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    I will do business with whoever I damn please.
     
  5. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    "Appears to be independent of US commerce"? Based on what? They were U.S. protectorate and only nominally independent.
     
  6. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    US domestic propaganda emphasizes the "moral imperative" of U.S. foreign policy, as that's the only real argument that resonates with the people. Because you can bet that the majority sure as heck are not getting any "spoils of war" from being the strongest military power and political hegemon of the world.
     
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  7. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Why do you think they revolted in Cuba?
     
  8. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I'm sure part of the reason was that they didn't like the US mafia (which is the very flower of US capitalism) using their country as a whorehouse.
     
  9. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    That makes me think: Perhaps a lack of goods coming from the US would result in an eventual change for the better. Who knows?
     
  10. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Well...
    Both Saddam and Taliban were not exactly what we would call beacons of freedom though.

    The irony is not that the US started those wars but rather the reasoning behind: nothing to do with fighting for freedom, but rather USA's own interests.

    Touché!
     
  11. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Well, that cuts to the core issue here. I think most people get the impression that the U.S. starts wars for our own national interests, but the politicians, pundits, and other propagandists play word games and mind games to try to trick the people into thinking that it's something completely different. And people who express that they're not fooled in the slightest get lambasted, mocked, and ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists," as if questioning the U.S. government is considered a form of mental illness.
     
  12. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    You've been watching The Godfather movies, eh.
    Is that the real reason for the revolution?
    Crime does seem to be more of a problem under
    capitalism than socialism or communism. This
    stems from greater economic liberty, & consequent
    greater social liberty...so it's easier for criminals to
    escape scrutiny. But socialism has its own flavors
    of crime, eg, rampant bribery, corruption, black markets.
    Which is worse?
    I'd rather live in crime ridden Ameristan or Canuckistan
    than socialist countries, eg, N Korea, Cuba.
     
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  13. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Not just The Godfather movies.

    The rise of Castro and the fall of the Havana Mob | The Mob Museum
    When the Mob Owned Cuba | Travel | Smithsonian Magazine
    Mobsters in Havana: a brief history of the Cuban Mafia - Why Not Cuba

    (You'll note that these are not left-wing sources.)

    Pre-Castro Cuba | American Experience | Official Site | PBS

    (The PBS site takes a slightly more moderate approach, but it supports the same basic idea.)

    U.S. companies such as United Fruit and Coca-Cola had huge investments in Cuba. I've heard that United Fruit even helped partly finance the Bay of Pigs invasion.

    US involvement in Cuba (both the US government and private corporations) was similar pretty much throughout Latin America.

    Cuba was in a somewhat unique position, being that it was so close to the U.S., as well as being one of the last remaining bastions of Spanish rule in the Americas. After the Spanish-American War in 1898, we could have kept Cuba, just as we did with Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines.

    But instead, we agreed to withdrawal, provided that the Cubans agree to the terms outlined in the Platt Amendment: Platt Amendment - Wikipedia

    As for capitalist countries having more crime, this is also true. When I visited the USSR back when it still existed, I was amazed at how clean and safe the streets were. Even in a city of 7 million people. It didn't stay that way after the Soviet government fell, as there were huge crime waves which gripped Russia during the Yeltsin era.

    Regarding capitalist countries, it's a bit complicated. I think the existence of organized crime has served the overall interests of capitalism, otherwise it would not have been tolerated as it has been.

    I don't think it's as simple as having greater liberty, although I've noticed that when it comes to the legal world and lawyers, the measure of a person's liberty correlates to their net worth. Those who can afford the best lawyers get liberty, and those who can't get shafted.

    Granted, I wouldn't blame capitalists directly for that, as that's more a matter of our government and politicians who appoint the judges who oversee our legal system.
     
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  14. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Wikipedia paints a different picture...one of Cuban governmental
    corruption. Ameristanian interests didn't cause this.
    Cuban Revolution - Wikipedia
     
  15. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    North Korea is an extreme that doesn't diminish that we are not very free here at all. We have the illusion of free.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    So does that make you an evil person?:p

    Seriously rather than war trade with incentive appears to be the way to go. In most countries when they get richer the members of that country demand more freedom. Trade can be a win all around. Cutting off trade to the purple countries would be bad policy.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is the problem with revolutions. All too often one corrupt government is replaced with another. As the saying goes, evolution, not revolution.
     
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  18. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Well, of course, the revolution on their soil, and their government was very corrupt. There's no denying that. But America wasn't just some innocent, uninvolved bystander.

    Even then, they may have not necessarily become pro-Soviet, and our government probably could have reached some sort of diplomatic arrangement with the Castro regime in the early days. But it seems our government had a bunch of stubborn hotheads who had some kind of personal grudge against Castro. Some of the stuff they did was both diabolical yet incredibly immature, such as slipping him some powder that made his beard fall out. It would be hilarious as a summer camp prank, but really, sometimes you have to wonder about the people running our government at times.
     
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  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I can travel where I want, say what I want,
    buy what I want, etc. In what way are so
    very oppressed?
     
  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    More catalyst than causative.
    Can't blame Ameristanian capitalism for the revolution.

    However.....
    I do particularly fault Ameristanian governmental anti-capitalist
    foreign policy for keeping Cuba isolated & poor.
    Again here, Cuba's problems relate to US government,
    not to capitalism itself.
     
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