Should Scotland be Independent?

[oldbadger]

Pity he's American.....

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But this is silly. To just equate a historic and rooted identity with imperialism and colonialism alone is absurdly simplistic.

Well, of course you'll think so. But the truth is that the Ulster Loyalist identity is the product of the British Empire. You can't deny that. Well, you can, but you'll be seen as foolish.

 

[oldbadger]

I dont actually know anything about the situation, but when I first heard about this, I really wondered why this is happening when Ireland has been pretty outspoken about it's desire to be separate for a long time.

Anyway, in my ignorance, I say if they want to be separate, let them be separate. Same with Ireland. The West should be done with the age of imperialism at this point.

But im not Scottish.

Ummm...... Ireland is a Republic, and has been for nearly a century.

If you are talking about Northern Ireland then you would need to take the huge majority of Protestants views into account........ they don't want to leave the UK

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Well, of course you'll think so. But the truth is that the Ulster Loyalist identity is the product of the British Empire. You can't deny that. Well, you can, but you'll be seen as foolish.

You are equivocating on the term product (and perhaps British Empire, as what is usually called the Empire was separate in its creation and as an entity).

Certainly, the beginning of Ulster Protestant or Loyalist identity was in British conquest and subjugation of Ireland and its native population, but this doesn't mean this identity, or all that makes it up, is entirely subsumed and made worthless by that conquest. This is your problem. You are trying to argue that the Loyalist identity and claims are worthless because they began in imperialism, but this simply doesn't follow, at least with the current support you give to this conclusion.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Ummm...... Ireland is a Republic, and has been for nearly a century.

If you are talking about Northern Ireland then you would need to take the huge majority of Protestants views into account........ they don't want to leave the UK

1949, I believe was when Southern Ireland became a Republic. Sorry, to be a smartarse.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are equivocating on the term product (and perhaps British Empire, as what is usually called the Empire was separate in its creation and as an entity).

Certainly, the beginning of Ulster Protestant or Loyalist identity was in British conquest and subjugation of Ireland and its native population, but this doesn't mean this identity, or all that makes it up, is entirely subsumed and made worthless by that conquest. This is your problem. You are trying to argue that the Loyalist identity and claims are worthless because they began in imperialism, but this simply doesn't follow, at least with the current support you give to this conclusion.

Basically, it comes down to whether you wish to see the United Kingdom dissolved or not. This our main point of dispute and I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on it.

 

[oldbadger]

Well, of course you'll think so. But the truth is that the Ulster Loyalist identity is the product of the British Empire. You can't deny that. Well, you can, but you'll be seen as foolish.

......no.
The Ulster Loyalist identity goes far far back into history, way before there was any Empire, centuries before.......... read up on James !, Cromwell, etc...
The majority of Americans do not know anything about any of it. Let me tell you that Americans were putting cash into buckets during the troubles, thinking that they were giving it to Republicans, when in fact they were giving it to Loyalists, and vice versa.
Read some of these posts and you'll see that some Americans still think that Ireland is part of the UK.

 

[oldbadger]

1949, I believe was when Southern Ireland became a Republic. Sorry, to be a smartarse.

I'm sorry.... I meant half-a-century.
Good point. Have frubal!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

......no.
The Ulster Loyalist identity goes far far back into history, way before there was any Empire, centuries before.......... read up on James !, Cromwell, etc...
The majority of Americans do not know anything about any of it. Let me tell you that Americans were putting cash into buckets during the troubles, thinking that they were giving it to Republicans, when in fact they were giving it to Loyalists, and vice versa.
Read some of these posts and you'll see that some Americans still think that Ireland is part of the UK.

I know about the Plantation of Ulster. It was colonialism.

 

[oldbadger]

I know about the Plantation of Ulster. It was colonialism.

Well you won't budge the Protestants from N.I. now, not after hundreds of years. And since they don't want to be part of the Irish Republic ....... that's that.

And as far as Scotland goes, it's beginning to look as if Mrs MacKinnon of Milngavie might not want to have to pay more for her shopping down at Tescos, and since her opinion is going to count for more than your anarcho-communist ideas, we'd better wait for the votes to be counted.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well you won't budge the Protestants from N.I. now, not after hundreds of years. And since they don't want to be part of the Irish Republic ....... that's that.

And as far as Scotland goes, it's beginning to look as if Mrs MacKinnon of Milngavie might not want to have to pay more for her shopping down at Tescos, and since her opinion is going to count for more than your anarcho-communist ideas, we'd better wait for the votes to be counted.

What should happen and what will happen usually don't match in reality. That doesn't change my opinion, though. I expect the British to disagree with me. I hardly care.

 

[oldbadger]

What should happen and what will happen usually don't match in reality. That doesn't change my opinion, though. I expect the British to disagree with me. I hardly care.

It's OK. You're safe, because you can't go into a Scottish Pub and tell 'em what 'should happen'.
That wouldn't be a good idea. And if you then told 'em that you 'hardly care', well..... Oh My God..... :faint:
Mrs MacKinnon's stout would go down on the table and her brolly would come UP!

 

[sandandfoam]

Well, if they don't want to become part of the countries they've moved to and wish to remain separate and live as if they're still in their homelands, why should they stay in a country they don't see as home?

This is ignorant offensive crap.
My family are Protestants. For the most part they are loyalists. They are Irish. This is our homeland.
This Gaelic ******** is a 19th century version of fantasy literature.
The history of Ireland is one of invasion. Waves of newcomers - vikings,Normans, Elizabethans, Cromwellians. There are no 'true Gaels' here only mongrels with different understandings of history. This Gaelic culture crap is fiction. Fantasy.
I think it is astonishing that someone in America would think I should consider this a country I have moved to.

 

[LuisDantas]

Scotland, I assume, is and will remain fairly independent in any case, barring some sort of disaster.

Whether it should seek independence from the United Kingdom is something else entirely, and perhaps far less of an issue than it appears at first. Do we have any reason to expect significant change there? Perhaps a slight shift in the immigration patterns (which are not exactly a major issue right now, if I am not mistaken), probably some differences in political management and more proximity to its own decision makers.

While those are probably good things overall, I guess I would have to be there to try and guess whether they truly are and how much of a difference they are expected to make. Perhaps not a whole lot?

 

[LuisDantas]

This is ignorant offensive crap.
My family are Protestants. For the most part they are loyalists. They are Irish. This is our homeland.
This Gaelic ******** is a 19th century version of fantasy literature.
The history of Ireland is one of invasion. Waves of newcomers - vikings,Normans, Elizabethans, Cromwellians. There are no 'true Gaels' here only mongrels with different understandings of history. This Gaelic culture crap is fiction. Fantasy.
I think it is astonishing that someone in America would think I should consider this a country I have moved to.

What is a homeland anyway? Maybe it is because I happen to be from a country that was built by destructive, genocidal settlers from whom I am descended, but I find the concept so illusory as to be useless.

Regional and ethnical differences only have any meaning to the extent that we people feel bothered or at ease with them. No more and no less than that.

Claiming that a "homeland" exists for anyone is in effect a pleasant way of claiming that those people discriminate against others not born or living in that territory.

That is not something to be proud of; it is rather an admission of weakness.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm divided on the issue of independence. If Scotland wasn't subject to laws from London, that would probably be a good thing. OTOH, I see worrying issues: would Scotland be part of the EU? What currency would it use?

I think the worries about economic impact are valid. I think back to the height of the Quebec separation movement in the 70s and 80s: plenty of companies moved their head offices out of Montreal. The impact of that is still being felt.

 

[Secret Chief]

If I was a Scot I'd vote Yes simply to guarantee my country would never again have a Tory government. I'd put up with a lot of supposed negatives to have that. I suspect a lot of the Yes vote will be informed by that notion. No more Etonian toffs lording it over a society that they neither understand, come from, or give a flying one about.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is a homeland anyway? Maybe it is because I happen to be from a country that was built by destructive, genocidal settlers from whom I am descended, but I find the concept so illusory as to be useless.

Regional and ethnical differences only have any meaning to the extent that we people feel bothered or at ease with them. No more and no less than that.

Claiming that a "homeland" exists for anyone is in effect a pleasant way of claiming that those people discriminate against others not born or living in that territory.

That is not something to be proud of; it is rather an admission of weakness.

It also assumes an idea of ancestral identity that's just false. While I'm nominally from an "Irish Protestant" family, parts of my family tree stretch back at least 1000 years in Ireland, and some of my "Scottish" roots came to Scotland by way of Ireland if you go back far enough.

Nobody has one single ancestral identity.

 

[oldbadger]

If I was a Scot I'd vote Yes simply to guarantee my country would never again have a Tory government. I'd put up with a lot of supposed negatives to have that. I suspect a lot of the Yes vote will be informed by that notion. No more Etonian toffs lording it over a society that they neither understand, come from, or give a flying one about.

..... but since you are not a Scot you surely want the Scots to vote 'No', because if they vote 'Yes' your going to get rather more Conservative Governments than before?

Question....... Do you know about voting rights? Is it only persons registered as voters inside the Scottish border who can vote, or do born Scots get a vote, or what?

 

[cottage]

Maybe it is time for the sun to set upon the British Empire.

And what British Empire is that then, Cynthia? The last nail was hammered into the Empire's coffin in 1956 (the Suez debacle).