Should people vote on the abortion issue foremost?

[SomeRandom]

It is also a word that describes something, regardless of what some nations may or may not define words.

If you want the law, secular law, to prohibit something, you must submit to those language parameters. Doesn’t matter if it has multiple usages.

Not at all. If a serial killer called his victims zigots, that does not mean we have to define the word. All a civilized society need do is stop the psycho.

Lmao! A zygote has a very specific and scientific definition. Not even the most creative of lawyers can use that excuse during a trial. Try learning how language works first. And definitions.

If we want to stop any crime, the way to do it is not necessarily paying criminals not to kill or rob etc.

What are you on about? A doctor refusing to violate personal autonomy is not a criminal. Nice try.

That is a joke.

Ahh so this is all just to control a woman’s sexuality. Confirmed. Big oof there buddy!

It seems you want to stop babies being born any which way that is conceivable. Perhaps if kids were taught that babies and life is a good thing, rather than something to be feared and killed, there would not be this fanatical impulse to murder babies.
Sounds great to me, although I prefer parents care for kids if possible. What I do not want is someone telling us that if we do not pay their daycare and etc that they will whack a kid.

Where the hell did I say that? You know bearing false witness is a sin, right? Hypocrite.
I advocated clearly to support babies after birth. You seem to want them to die in poverty, just as long as they’re born. After that you don’t care. Thank you for demonstrating your true motives for all to see.

Make a long Christmas list of ideal world things that must be done or babies get whacked of you like. Taking care of people is a great thing, as an act of love and kindness not as a ransom for lives.
I doubt it was the case in Israel either. Being in a less than charitable nation is no excuse to murder millions.

Apparently you don’t want to support motherhood at all. Like did you seriously just try to argue against literal achievable and easy to incorporate basic measures to ensure a safe pregnancy being carried to term successfully? Really? Do you think pregnancy is just some leisurely stroll in the park? Do you even know the basics of human biology?

Charitable measures are wonderful. Close down all the slave labour factories, etc etc. Stop all wars also while you are at it.

We agree. Might be a little hard to do, but lofty goals do not prevent us from enacting measures that can improve society. Even if it’s only baby steps at a time.

Meanwhile, when you find you may not get er all done do not use that as an excuse to wantonly sacrifice millions of little people.

So just because I can’t stop poverty I’m not allowed to raise funds for charity that goes towards feeding starving children? Wow, you’re beyond pessimistic. Sad.

Making all crimes illegal leads to some people committing the crimes illegally. Better then giving the killers carte Blanche.

No abortion happens, regardless. I prefer that happens safely and medically done. In a perfect world, abortion would not happen at all. But I work with what I got.
Meanwhile you just actively try not to make the world or society better. You just want to slap something with the marker of “illegal” and flout any and all of your responsibilities. Wow.

Criminals get shot robbing banks too. Their families may lose them. Making bank robbery with a weapon illegal might lead to unsafe situations. Either there is a right and wrong or not, and all a nation can do is try to have civilized laws.

And a woman may die due to pregnancy. Abortion in that case would be justified self defence.
You want to play around with language and refuse to engage in meaningful discussion on the issues?
I can be just as petty back to you. I would prefer it not be the case, but ehh. You chose those parameters.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do not find millions of babies villains, sorry.

You missed my point; that's okay. I'm calling you the villain here.

What people can do is have their house in order and know what right and wrong is. They are not supposed to run into Sodom and Gomorrah and yell at people there for having wicked laws. Their job is to try and get right with God and let God deal with them.

Back up a moment - you started this thread suggesting that you would vote for politicians who say they're against abortion, but this makes it sound like you're not looking to change any laws. Which is it?

There comes a time when it can't be fixed. Looking at the falling judgments today, I have to ask if that time has come or is at the door. It is not possible for decent people to stop murders in a society that is wrapped up in murder. That ship may have sailed already.

Well, if you're sure that Jesus is coming tomorrow, then it would make no sense to try to take the time to get a law changed, right?

If universal murder is called something else, why would I be silly enough to jump on the band wagon to hell?

I wasn't using a euphemism for abortion. I meant plain ol' healthcare, paid for by the government.

When someone's reason for seeking an abortion is concern about how they'd pay for their medical care, if they knew that they wouldn't be bankrupted by the hospital stay for her childbirth, they'd be more likely to choose not to get an abortion.

Of course, especially if the people watching the kids are godly and not a bunch of pedophiles.

Hardly mutually exclusive categories.

But I'm not talking about a new subsidy for your church; I'm talking about qualified, licensed, secular childcare that your taxes help to pay for and that would help convince more pregnant people that they can afford to go through with their pregnancy. You'd be for that, right?

I don't want to muddy the simple topic waters here, by making a long list of goody goody things we would like to see done or not.

It's not muddying the waters. It's getting at an important point:

There are plenty of ways to prevent abortions, but if you're only interested in the ones that involve harming or shaming pregnant people and not the ones that involve giving pregnant people better options so that they freely choose an option that leaves them happier or or better off instead of abortion, then we'll know that you don't really care that much about preventing abortion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes... that is the nature of mankind -- that of having two different viewpoints. I just don't see the logic of taking away something that is innocent for personal benefit. (Not speaking of all cases but rather most cases)

IMV, my position does seem to have a track record. After abortion was instituted and that culture grew up, euthanasia began an uptick and, IMV, it is because we have lessened the value of life.

If you don't see how medical assistance in dying acknowledges the value of human life, then I sincerely hope you never have to see for yourself how monstrous it can be to prolong one of your loved one's suffering unnecessarily.

 

[Kenny]

If you don't see how medical assistance in dying acknowledges the value of human life, then I sincerely hope you never have to see for yourself how monstrous it can be to prolong one of your loved one's suffering unnecessarily.

I'm not talking about a living will.

I'm talking about:

"The disabled are better off dead. They suck up resources and contribute little to society. With limited medical personnel, medications, and money, why should these parasites be alive? Why not kill them? Shouldn’t we consider the impact of keeping the disabled going? Would it be acceptable to euthanize those with disabilities to decrease the surplus population?

These are the frightening words which I hear with more and more frequency, and they are absolutely sickening.

Killing the Disabled

If you don't mind doing it in the front end, you don't mind doing it on the back end. If you value life on the front end, you value life on the back end.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not talking about a living will.

I'm talking about:

"The disabled are better off dead. They suck up resources and contribute little to society. With limited medical personnel, medications, and money, why should these parasites be alive? Why not kill them? Shouldn’t we consider the impact of keeping the disabled going? Would it be acceptable to euthanize those with disabilities to decrease the surplus population?

These are the frightening words which I hear with more and more frequency, and they are absolutely sickening.

Killing the Disabled

Ah... so nothing like what anyone is actually proposing today.

If you don't mind doing it in the front end, you don't mind doing it on the back end. If you value life on the front end, you value life on the back end.

By the same token, if you're willing to ignore the bodily autonomy of a pregnant woman, whose bodily autonomy won't you also ignore?

Google the Tuskegee Experiments to see where denying the right to bodily autonomy ends up.

 

[dad]

If you want the law, secular law, to prohibit something, you must submit to those language parameters. Doesn’t matter if it has multiple usages.

You want to use what interpretation of the word murder in applying it to killing babies, how, exactly?

Lmao! A zygote has a very specific and scientific definition. Not even the most creative of lawyers can use that excuse during a trial. Try learning how language works first. And definitions.

Meaningless babble. The word for a baby when it is very small in the womb is child in the bible. Mary was with child' etc. Calling Jesus a zygote changes nothing. Naturally killers tend to try and dehumanize their victims.

What are you on about? A doctor refusing to violate personal autonomy is not a criminal. Nice try.

Anyone that rips apart a baby or burns or otherwise destroys it is a murderer.

Ahh so this is all just to control a woman’s sexuality. Confirmed. Big oof there buddy!

Sexuality is not a factor once the baby is on the way.

Where the hell did I say that?

Stopping a baby coming using pills is still a way to show you do not want the baby to live. As I said, you seem to want to stop babies any way you can.

I advocated clearly to support babies after birth.

Using a contraceptive is not supporting anything after birth. That is trying to avoid birth. Of course we all hopefully want to help families and make it easier to get by. People that want to kill babies by the hundreds of millions have no monopoly on that!

You seem to want them to die in poverty, just as long as they’re born. After that you don’t care. Thank you for demonstrating your true motives for all to see.

We cannot say how their lives will turn out. Many are born in poverty, and many live in poverty and are happy. No need to whack all the poor!

Apparently you don’t want to support motherhood at all.

Get over the delusion that someone not wanting to destroy children means we do not 'support motherhood' or apple pie.

Like did you seriously just try to argue against literal achievable and easy to incorporate basic measures to ensure a safe pregnancy being carried to term successfully? Really? Do you think pregnancy is just some leisurely stroll in the park? Do you even know the basics of human biology?

Ever since Eve ate the fruit, giving birth was a challenge. Not any walk in the park, generally. That is no reason to whack babies.

So just because I can’t stop poverty I’m not allowed to raise funds for charity that goes towards feeding starving children? Wow, you’re beyond pessimistic. Sad.

? Why say insane things? Don't pretend I said or agreed with such dark and twisted thoughts. I said I think it is great to help people and families etc. Be honest.

No abortion happens, regardless. I prefer that happens safely and medically done. In a perfect world, abortion would not happen at all. But I work with what I got.

All crime happens regardless of laws. Laws just hopefully help keep it in line somewhat. I would not want to abolish all laws for crimes just because some killers or thieves might be inconvenienced.

Meanwhile you just actively try not to make the world or society better. You just want to slap something with the marker of “illegal” and flout any and all of your responsibilities. Wow.

More slurs and fabrications. As I said it is GREAT to help the poor and families etc.

And a woman may die due to pregnancy. Abortion in that case would be justified self defence.
You want to play around with language and refuse to engage in meaningful discussion on the issues?

I find it disingenuous to bring up isolated exceptions as some excuse for mas mass mass mass murder.

I can be just as petty back to you. I would prefer it not be the case, but ehh. You chose those parameters.

No problem, it is like debating an unarmed man.

 

[dad]

You missed my point; that's okay. I'm calling you the villain here.

And you do this because I do not want babies murdered in the millions? If that makes me a villain in your eyes, no problem at all.

Back up a moment - you started this thread suggesting that you would vote for politicians who say they're against abortion, but this makes it sound like you're not looking to change any laws. Which is it?

The OP was asking if the issue of supporting baby murder is a big enough issue to base a vote on or not. If any laws exist that allow babies to be killed, of course they need changing. (or the nation needs judgment from God)

Well, if you're sure that Jesus is coming tomorrow, then it would make no sense to try to take the time to get a law changed, right?

We do not know when He will return. We do know He will.

I wasn't using a euphemism for abortion. I meant plain ol' healthcare, paid for by the government.

When that includes baby murder then the plan is guilty.

When someone's reason for seeking an abortion is concern about how they'd pay for their medical care, if they knew that they wouldn't be bankrupted by the hospital stay for her childbirth, they'd be more likely to choose not to get an abortion.

Fear over money is not a reason to kill millions of people. Where there is a will, there usually is a way.

But I'm not talking about a new subsidy for your church; I'm talking about qualified, licensed, secular childcare that your taxes help to pay for and that would help convince more pregnant people that they can afford to go through with their pregnancy. You'd be for that, right?

I am for parents having one person care for the kids if possible. Not dumping them in secular daycare's at the drop of a hat. In cases where it is needed of course good childcare help is a great thing. Preferably not secular.

There are plenty of ways to prevent abortions,

There are plenty of ways not to kill your neighbour also.

 

[dad]

If you don't see how medical assistance in dying acknowledges the value of human life, then I sincerely hope you never have to see for yourself how monstrous it can be to prolong one of your loved one's suffering unnecessarily.

Would it not be the medical system that prolongs the life generally?

 

[Kenny]

Ah... so nothing like what anyone is actually proposing today.

Ignorance is so bliss. You don't understand how to cook a frog.

Netherlands Push to Euthanize Children | National Review

You think that what happens elsewhere can't happen here?

And nice way to ignore Psychology Today. Just pretend they didn't acknowledge the direction.

 

[Tambourine]

God arranged how birth works.I think society is or should be in the business of protecting the innocent from being murdered. Whether or not some people feel that only a killer has rights.

And therefore you think your government should force women to birth children, regardless of whether they want to.
Because God told you that women - and only women - need to be enslaved for the sake of unborn humans.

 

[dad]

And therefore you think your government should force women to birth children, regardless of whether they want to.
Because God told you that women - and only women - need to be enslaved for the sake of unborn humans.

Being loving and unselfish is something man needs to learn. learning to care for a baby rather than kill it is not enslavement. Becoming a murderer especially of your own child is enslavement to sin and the horrors of hell.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Child sacrifice and murder of innocent babies is a big issue for some people. Should they vote with this a a priority? I would suggest it would be a good idea. What do you think? Be prepared to defend your position.

I think when it comes to abortion, it probably happens the most when the would-be parent or parents don't believe they can provide optimal conditions for the would-be baby and child. Seems pretty responsible, so what do you want me to defend

 

[dad]

I think when it comes to abortion, it probably happens the most when the would-be parent or parents don't believe they can provide optimal conditions for the would-be baby and child. Seems pretty responsible, so what do you want me to defend

You cannot defend murdering millions of babies. So shall we take it that your vote if you voted would go to the sort of people that advocate this mass murder?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

If you don't want abortions to happen vote in favour of pro contraceptive pro sex educational parties.

Er... a lot of them are against even that here, so.. welcome to america

 

[amorphous_constellation]

You cannot defend murdering millions of babies. So shall we take it that your vote if you voted would go to the sort of people that advocate this mass murder?

well, I don't define unborn clumps of cells as babies

 

[dad]

well, I don't define unborn clumps of cells as babies

I see. So you want to make light of killing children. You want to dehumanize the victims. No need to ask who you will vote for.

I noticed a place in Scripture where God addresses this sort of thing Personally.

Jer 22:3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place. 5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation

The word desolation in Hebrew means this
"a place laid waste, ruin, waste, desolation"

All I can say is you better pray real real hard that most people vote differently.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Jer 22:3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place. 5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation

I'm not even sure the bible would define an unborn potential person, or even baby or child, as being totally 'innocent,' if that's what your trying to read into that. For abel had to learn what your god wanted, whereas cain expended no effort to learn. The argument then, is that the blankest state that human has, is closer to falling into sin, as it takes effort for the individual to learn to be good. But you are arguing with someone who is considered 'pagan,' and a nature worshiper. I don't think people should have more that one child really, and we cannot continue to use fossil fuels to produce artificial fertilizer, to feed all these billions of people. I know you won't listen to that, as the christian view is that you should generally bring as many people into the world as possible, for then more people have the possibility of reaching heaven

But if you wish to argue more using the bible, what about the example of Judas? Jesus said it would be better that he not have been born. What's so important about being born in that passage?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

If you honestly wanted to reduce abortion you would be supporting measures that demonstratively reduces abortion in the real world. Safe sex education, freely available contraception,

I'll refer you to what I said to danieldemol.. The mindset in america that is against abortion, is also very often against contraception.. so that might save you some effort the next time you want to use that in your argument

 

[Friend of Mara]

Child sacrifice and murder of innocent babies is a big issue for some people. Should they vote with this a a priority? I would suggest it would be a good idea. What do you think? Be prepared to defend your position.

So we should vote against bodily autonomy? Should we require people to give blood by law? Or make everyone give up a kidney or other transplantable organ? Do you think people shouldn't have the ability to opt out of being an organ donner upon death? If no to any of these why are you okay with axing the bodily autonomy of child bearing peoples?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Soldiers and police give their lives is that bad? Refraining from murdering a child is not forcing anyone to donate organs (although baby parts I hear are in demand)

So you don't understand how forcing women to remain pregnant is forcing them to allow somebody else to use their uterus?

Did nobody explain to you how babies are made?

God decided moms would be moms. Insult it all you like.

I don't care about your religious beliefs.

It is a baby's own body which shares space with mom that needs rights protected. You have no right to whack a roommate you don't like.

My roommate doesn't live inside my body and make use of my organs before being violently passed out of it.

If your roommate decided to implant themselves inside of your body and make use of all of your organs, and disconnecting your body would kill them, do you have a right to do it or should you be forced to carry your roommate around for the rest of your life?