Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

[stvdv]

Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers

God: "To judge or not to judge"
Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you will be judged.

1Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.…

 

[VoidoftheSun]

1. Why should the Muslims (Those who follow the Messenger), be concerned with finding the Messenger (Muhammad), in Gospel and Torah, as following verse says:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Ummi whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them. He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad things and remove from them their burdens and shackles that were upon them. So those who shall believe in him and honour and support him and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- these shall prosper.'" 7:157

2. As a Muslim and follower of Muhammad, do you find Muhammad mentioned in INJIL and Torah? If yes, quote a verse from Injil, and a verse from Torah that you see as Muhammad.

No, I don't think Muslims should be concerned about Jewish and Christian texts either way (positively or negatively).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

From what i understood The verse doesn't say that his name is mentioned but his teachings are specifically these : "He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad things and remove from them their burdens and shackles that were upon them. "

Correct, The verse does not say that his name is mentioned, but it says, "whom they find mentioned". It denotes mentioning the person, not the teachings alone. It is claiming Muhammad was prophesied in previous scriptures (not necessarily by name), but, coming of such a prophet was mentioned in Injil and Torah. It does not say, His teachings are mentioned in Torah, that is the second part of the verse stating what the Prophet enjoins on them,


"And ordain for us good in this world, as well as in the next; we have turned to Thee with repentance.' God replied, 'I will inflict My punishment on whom I will; but My mercy encompasses all things; so I will ordain it for those who act righteously and pay the Zakaat and those who believe in Our Signs - Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Ummi whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them. He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad things and remove from them their burdens and shackles that were upon them. So those who shall believe in him and honour and support him and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- these shall prosper.'" 7:156_157

 

[VoidoftheSun]

I can't find anything that supports the following of Mohammad in the bible... but please feel free to follow your religion

Bit deceptive.

The "New Testament" is not part of the "Old Testament" (Tanakh). There is no Jesus in the Old Testament, no matter how much the authors of the New Testament want to erroneously try to misquote passages that aren't even prophetic. Ultimately it comes down to the New Testament authors trying to justify themselves by placing quotes here and there.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, I don't think Muslims should be concerned about Jewish and Christian texts either way (positively or negatively).

Then those who find mentioning the Prophet in Torah and Injil, shouldn't have looked in to those Books?
The verse quoted in OP, says, Muhammad was prophesied in Injil and Torah.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Why would you find that in the Bible?
Muhammad walked the earth many centuries after the Bible was canonized.

Muslims believe that the Quran was verbally revealed from God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE, when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632 CE, the year of his death. The Quran | World Civilization - Lumen Learning

Well technically it was still being canonized well into the 7th century, so you're not entirely correct.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Then those who find mentioning the Prophet in Torah and Injil, shouldn't have looked in to those Books?

And that's where I am a massive cynic because I remain thoroughly unconvinced by the Pentateuch and the four biographies of Jesus in the NT. The Pentateuch is not simply just God speaking to Moses, it is something else. And the four biographies of Jesus in the NT are not the revelations received by Jesus. Both the Pentateuch and these four biographies of Jesus are themselves recorded oral tradition as well, which is necessary to take into account.
I can only take the Biblical texts on the basis of what they claim to be and not what Jews and Christians claim them to be. When trying to take either as 'scripture' all we will ever do is run into massive problems.
So I remain skeptical and cynical on this matter, and find no benefits either way when I am forced to legitimize texts that I see as fundamentally illegitimate and highly flawed; non-synonymous with what the Qur'an speaks of at the least.

 

[stvdv]

No, I don't think Muslims should be concerned about Jewish and Christian texts either way (positively or negatively).

Then those who find mentioning the Prophet in Torah and Injil, shouldn't have looked in to those Books?
The verse quoted in OP, says, Muhammad was prophesied in Injil and Torah.

It's okay of course to look into those books, but just leave concerns to Allah

But, Allah gave Torah to Jews (so that is their concern)
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Seems to me Allah revealed all Scriptures, and each should just follow their own Scripture

Which is summarized in below verse:

Koran: 5:48
To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed,
He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He
intended] to test you in what He has given you; so advance to [all
that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will
[then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.​

And Allah even gives a hint as to why different Scriptures are His Will...testing us "do not judge (be concerned about) others"

I think Bahaullah could not agree more, don't you think so?

 

[VoidoftheSun]

It's okay of course to look into those books, but just leave concerns to Allah

But, Allah gave Torah to Jews (so that is their concern)
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran


Seems to me Allah revealed all Scriptures, and each should just follow their own Scripture

Which is summarized in below verse:


And Allah even gives a hint as to why different Scriptures are His Will...testing us "do not judge (be concerned about) others"

I think Bahaullah could not agree more, don't you think so?

And my problem is that a simple reading of the Pentateuch and the four biographies of Jesus do not add up so such conclusions, therefore I have to reject them as any basis of authority.

The Injeel especially, considering the Qur'an says multiple times that it was a revelation given directly to Jesus; NOT four biographies written out of oral tradition decades later.
The closest I get with the Torah is the book of Deuteronomy, and things like the Temple Scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Else like I've said, I remain entirely cynical and skeptical towards what you're and others are saying.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

I will also add that the concept of a "torah" and a "gospel" are internal concepts in the books that are overall titled as such. - and also remembering that for Jews, the Talmud is also part of "Torah", meaning that we are not just talking about five books alone. For the biographies of Jesus though we objectively know through the earliest manuscripts that titling them as such is later addition and more a cataloging mechanism than anything (like numbering verses in any religious text).
Gospel is the most explicit because according to those biographies, the "gospel" is actually a doctrine that Jesus taught ("Gospel of the Kingdom" more specifically), which is somewhat in continuity on that basis with what the Qur'an says (extending it to being a revelation which conveys a doctrine).
Torah on the other hand, come on, the books were taken from different competing sources, there are no internal indicators that it is either God or Moses speaking, both remaining just 'characters' in the narratives.

I don't mean to bash either per se, but I cannot accept either as inherently what the Qur'an speaks of. At the least I can say that God in the Qur'an is polemically testing the Jews and Christians with what they claim. Otherwise I very much have little interest in this topic.

 

[stvdv]

Else like I've said, I remain entirely cynical and skeptical towards what you're and others are saying.

What is it that I am saying, which you are cynical and skeptical about?

 

[Trailblazer]

So obviously the God of Islam thinks they're relevent. He says Muhammad is mentioned in them and that they are still His word. This does not fit with the Islamic claim they are corrupted.

Imo, the Torah and the Gospel are relevant because they are scriptures revealed by God thus they are eternal in the sense that they they represent eternal religions of God; but Muslims do not have to be "concerned" with them in the sense of following their teachings and laws, because the Muslims have the Qur'an which is a more current revelation from God.

Baha'u'llah chastised the Muslims for saying the Bible had been corrupted and said that “corruption” of the text had only been effected in particular instances He had mentioned.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: How could it support Muhammad when He had not even been born yet?
Do you mean support the coming of Muhammad in prophecy?

yes

How would you expect that to appear in the prophecies?
Do you think that Muhammad would be mentioned by name?

 

[stvdv]

Then those who find mentioning the Prophet in Torah and Injil, shouldn't have looked in to those Books?
The verse quoted in OP, says, Muhammad was prophesied in Injil and Torah.

I think Bahaullah could not agree more, don't you think so?

I was curious what Bahaullah says about this. I have His "Book of Certitude", and bingo on the first page, first sentence:
"Detach from all that is in heaven and on earth", for those desiring "the shores of the ocean of true understanding".

So, definitely one should detach from "As a human, thinking about which Scripture others should study according to Allah, God, Prophets or I"

IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.

No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.

(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
www.bahai.org/r/540143739

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And that's where I am a massive cynic because I remain thoroughly unconvinced by the Pentateuch and the four biographies of Jesus in the NT. The Pentateuch is not simply just God speaking to Moses, it is something else. And the four biographies of Jesus in the NT are not the revelations received by Jesus. Both the Pentateuch and these four biographies of Jesus are themselves recorded oral tradition as well, which is necessary to take into account.
I can only take the Biblical texts on the basis of what they claim to be and not what Jews and Christians claim them to be. When trying to take either as 'scripture' all we will ever do is run into massive problems.
So I remain skeptical and cynical on this matter, and find no benefits either way when I am forced to legitimize texts that I see as fundamentally illegitimate and highly flawed; non-synonymous with what the Qur'an speaks of at the least.

I can understand most of the things you say here and it is fair to me. But I don't understand, if one believes in Quran as word of God, cannot see Quran indeed confirms the Holy Books which are with the people of the Book (even if it may not make sense). So, while I understand your points and views, I still see the Quran confirming the scriptures which are with people. If you tell me, Quran is wrong on that, I can still see you are consistent, but if on one hand you tell me you believe in Quran as word of God, but you do not believe Quran confirms the existing Torah and Injil, that is what I cannot see consistency in what you would say. But, ofcourse everyone has the right to believe what it makes sense to them.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

What is it that I am saying, which you are cynical and skeptical about?

I can understand most of the things you say here and it is fair to me. But I don't understand, if one believes in Quran as word of God, cannot see Quran indeed confirms the Holy Books which are with the people of the Book (even if it may not make sense). So, while I understand your points and views, I still see the Quran confirming the scriptures which are with people. If you tell me, Quran is wrong on that, I can still see you are consistent, but if on one hand you tell me you believe in Quran as word of God, but you do not believe Quran confirms the existing Torah and Injil, that is what I cannot see consistency in what you would say. But, ofcourse everyone has the right to believe what it makes sense to them.

As already said, it is the Pentateuch and the four NT biographies of Jesus that I have issues with on the basis of their own contents, format/style and claims.


As I already quoted yesterday:

The book of Luke even directly goes out of it's way to describe what the book matter of fact is:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
(Luke 1:1-4)

And as John ends:

This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
(John 21:24-25)


Two very basic examples of the books themselves giving self-definition. The four NT biographies of Jesus are 3rd person narratives recounted from oral tradition (as with much of the Apocrypha and so-called "gnostic" texts).
I think the Qur'an's own commonalities with certain infamous "Gnostic" texts (like the infancy gospel of Thomas for examples, which Christian apologists love getting sweaty over) help to prove my case, that the Qur'an speaks to a much wider discourse than the Bible canon of the Catholics/Protestants. Rather speaking of the direct revelation given to Jesus, distinguished from his life. By extension, the many streams of oral tradition that have filtered down through various forms of Pre-Christianity (including those included in the NT which are simply one compilation of a few select streams, Paulian and Johannine being the most prolific sect).

Torah is a far more complex and nuanced situation, as I've already said. I believe though that whatever Moses received on Mount Sinai was "Torah", but not the accounts of Moses reciving things on Mount Sinai. Do you get the distinction?
Islamically speaking; revelation (Qur'an) is not biography (Seerah). Hadith are not Qur'an either, but they are related, in the sense of Moses' relationship to the Torah.
Scholarship on what Jews have with the Pentateuch is very interesting though.


Anyway, I've tried the Baha'i view before and it just doesn't sit right and feels very intellectually dishonest to me. However I do respect your right to hold such a view.

 

[stvdv]

but if on one hand you tell me you believe in Quran as word of God, but you do not believe Quran confirms the existing Torah and Injil, that is what I cannot see consistency in what you would say

This is how I see this (how I would solve this problem):
Allah spoke to Muhammad. Muhammad spoke to others. Finally, others wrote things down.
I do not question if what Allah spoke is true or not (because Allah is God, as per definition)

Did Muhammad claim "I am Allah (worship Me)"? I think not. Hence Muhammad is human, and prone to making errors.

So, if there is an inconsistency (or error) in the Koran, then I do not blame Allah for it. Then the mistake has been made by Muhammad, the others He spoke to, or the others that wrote it down eventually, or in my interpretation (reading skills)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I was curious what Bahaullah says about this. I have His "Book of Certitude", and bingo on the first page, first sentence:
"Detach from all that is in heaven and on earth", for those desiring "the shores of the ocean of true understanding".
So, definitely one should detach from "As a human, thinking about which Scripture others should study according to Allah, God, Prophets or I"

True, but I suggest there are other reasons why should a Muslim read and learn Torah and Injil.

"When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you." 3:81

This verse, suggests that, Allah had revealed to previous prophets, about coming of another future prophet, so, when He comes The previous prophets help Him.
For example, Jesus and Moses were told about Muhammad, according to what Quran says, and it is expected that Jesus and Moses help Muhammad!
How could Moses or Jesus help Muhammad, when, They were not in this world, at the time of Manifestation of Muhammad?
The answer is, Jesus and Moses had told their followers about a future Prophet, so, they are aware, so that when The future Prophet comes, Jews and Christian's help Him (as Moses and Jesus themselves would not be there!). Thus a Muslim needs to be aware where in Toran and Injil a Prophet was prophesied, so, they will make the Christian's and Jews aware, such that, if the Jews or Christians asked Muslims, why should we believe in Muhammad, the Muslims can point them to the verses of Injil and Torah, saying, here the Prophet is mentioned!

 

[stvdv]

True, but I suggest there are other reasons why should a Muslim read and learn Torah and Injil.

I do not know if Muslim "should read" Torah and Injil. I would say "could read"
I just said "Muslim/mr.X should not be concerned what Jews/mr.Y should study"

The difference of "how we phrase it" is the difference of respect or disrespect

 

[stvdv]

This verse, suggests that, Allah had revealed to previous prophets, about coming of another future prophet, so, when He comes The previous prophets help Him.
For example, Jesus and Moses were told about Muhammad, according to what Quran says, and it is expected that Jesus and Moses help Muhammad!
How could Moses or Jesus help Muhammad, when, They were not in this world, at the time of Manifestation of Muhammad?
The answer is, Jesus and Moses had told their followers about a future Prophet, so, they are aware, so that when The future Prophet comes, Jews and Christian's help Him (as Moses and Jesus themselves would not be there!). Thus a Muslim needs to be aware where in Toran and Injil a Prophet was prophesied, so, they will make the Christian's and Jews aware, such that, if the Jews or Christians asked Muslims, why should we believe in Muhammad, the Muslims can point them to the verses of Injil and Torah, saying, here the Prophet is mentioned!

I think the point you try to make is "Do not belittle other prophets", and if possible "respect them".
With that I fully agree

If the message is perfect for all times for all humans, then Allah would not have send new messengers with new messages IMO

So, I believe it is always good/needed to trust your own conscience, and not blindly take Scriptures as the Truth

As Allah mischievously said in Koran 5:48 "but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you"

Sai Baba has said "Test is my Taste"