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Should God have created a world without suffering?

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Why do you think that suffering is not very good?
Why would it be good? I don't see any benefits from it. Compared to living in a "situation" where suffering is not required.

I believe that God chose the physical existence because it is a kind of workshop whereby humans can acquire spiritual qualities, which really equates to developing our character.
And this would be impossible, had it been any other way?

Again, could you imagine living in the world we do now, exactly the same. But where animals didn't suffer? Now could you imagine a world where neither animals or humans suffered?

Also couldn't it have been so for instance only animals are material beings, while human were not, but were able to interact with animals, but not hurt them? or whatever setup you prefer. Maybe animals where ethereal beings with a fixed amount to avoid having them eat each other and humans couldn't eat or hurt them.

Because are there any limits to how things could have been?

By living life and making good decisions as well as bad decisions, choosing between good and evil, we learn and grow from our experiences.
But why would that be good? Why would God care if we grow or not?

Imagine you standing at the end of the road, do you think that God goes... "Trailblazer throughout your life, you have really grown, Im so happy now, as you are so much more interesting to speak to now, compared to when you were first born. Just imagine, Me, all knowing, having always existed and created everything talking with a baby? Ohh no.. my dear Trailblazer, talking to yet another human, which have lived for maybe 85 years, now that is where we can have some interesting conversations. Now take a seat and tell me something I don't already know" :D

Why on Earth should God care about it? Because WE didn't ask for it, so for us it makes absolutely no difference, whether we are mindless robots or not. We wouldn't have known the difference anyway, we are just born into whatever show God has going on.

Sure, God could have created us as spiritual beings who are suited to live in the spiritual world, outside of time and space, but then we would not have the opportunity to learn and grow spiritually by living in the material world.
Same as above, why would God care? We don't know the difference anyway, so the only one who could potentially care is God.
 
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Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I do not believe in past lives since I do not believe in reincarnation. I believe that the human soul comes into being at conception, lives through this world and then when we die the soul passes to the spiritual world where it continues to exist for eternity.

I do not think that disabilities are any kind of punishment from God but rather they are simply the luck of the draw. Sometimes children are born with disabilities and that is just an unfortunate circumstance. I don't think that God is deliberately testing people but it could be a test for people which if passed could make them stronger and develop their character. There are many examples of this, people who rise above their disabilities. People are capable of amazing things when they have the right attitude and a strong will.

Well, me being the Buddhisty person I am, that tends to make more sense to me. Good post though.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You failed to read my simple and clear post correctly

And I see you still can't let go judging me and my feelings

You even claim to know how I feel by telling my feeling is wrong and belittle me

Have you ever done some introspection yourself to get rid of that demeaning behavior?
You have judged suffering as a choice and invalidated those who suffer through no fault of their own. Do you honestly think a sex slave choices to suffer? Does a child who beaten by a drunken father choose to suffer that? Do people choose to suffer with paralysis because of a drunk driver? You're worried about me belittling you, but saying the world is without suffering and people choose to suffer belittles and demeans those who suffer.
I do not think that disabilities are any kind of punishment from God but rather they are simply the luck of the draw. Sometimes children are born with disabilities and that is just an unfortunate circumstance. I don't think that God is deliberately testing people but it could be a test for people which if passed could make them stronger and develop their character. There are many examples of this, people who rise above their disabilities. People are capable of amazing things when they have the right attitude and a strong will.
The wonderful thing about science is we don't look at outliers. We look at general trends. And the general trends, where we find those rising above we very generally find people with good support systems. A lot of times, however, it tears people down, especially if they don't have any a reliable group of people or just anyone who tries to build them up. On the flip side, with the "opposite end" of the spectrum, we find people with certain genetic features who lived through horrible abuses of all manners as a child and they grow up to be serial killers.
And there is no "will." Science and psychology are abandoning that faster than a sinking ship. Especially free will. There are so many things about people that are predictable with trends that free will especially has been shredded. And when it comes to disabilities, set backs, and hardships, so much plays into how we handle that, cope, and move on that is beyond our control it's just silly to think it's easily within our grasp and can be as simple as a choice. Like my half siblings. Their father was murdered one Christmas morning. My mom is very emotionally cold and numb, and she very much promotes the idea of downplaying emotions and "quit being so sensitive." It's not surprising neither one got over such a tragic shock of trauma. They were raised by an iron fisted mom who sees little value in emotions, who endlessly goes on about "life sucks and then you die" and has an aversion towards deriving pleasure from life. All three of us, having the same mom, reject and rebel against authority, don't necessarily follow the rules, get ourselves in abusive relationships, and have a laundry list of health issues both mental and physical.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I think natural "disasters" are needed to regulate the environment. We think of them as disasters because of the devastation to life they cause. We think that we are the most important of creation, but we are just part of the universe, and I guess you could call the devastation collateral damage.

If life is not that important to the universe; which it isn't, then what in the universe is worth preserving? Perhaps God didn't plan things that carefully. Or he/she has an inordinate affection for wasted space and dead environments void of any meaning.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Why would it be good? I don't see any benefits from it. Compared to living in a "situation" where suffering is not required.
There really aren't any. Suffering diminishes quality of life, impairs normal functioning, and has so many deleterious effects that there is nothing good to be salvaged out of it.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
You have judged suffering as a choice and invalidated those who suffer through no fault of their own. Do you honestly think a sex slave choices to suffer? Does a child who beaten by a drunken father choose to suffer that? Do people choose to suffer with paralysis because of a drunk driver? You're worried about me belittling you, but saying the world is without suffering and people choose to suffer belittles and demeans those who suffer.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Seriously? It's well accepted by most societies that children are innocent and vulnerable and we adults act to protect children by parental instinct.

Since you are surprised by this do you not agree?
I am not surprised by this, but that is off topic becaue I was not talking about the fact that children are innocent and vulnerable. I was wondering why you don't expect God to cure old people who have Alzheimer's disease or cure people with heart disease or cure people who are dying of Covid-19. And while we are at it, what about animals who have diseases, don't they matter? Or do only children with cancer matter to you?
You're NOT all-knowing. You have texts that you think are absolute, but since you are not all-knowing you can't be certain. You can believe, but since you are a fallible mortal you could be mistaken. So you can believe a God exists and is all-knowing, but you can;'t know this is true. So you are trapped in a paradox.
I am not trapped anywhere, I am free. As I have said before, I do know, but how I know is not something you can understand. You can keep telling me I don't know but that won't change anything. God bestows favor on whomsoever He chooses to and for some reason I was chosen. Perhaps it was because God knew I would dedicate my life to serving His Cause, I don't know.

“All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278
To clarify, the God you believe exists might be all-knowing, but that doesn't help you since you are NOT all-knowing.
I do not claim to be all-knowing, but I don't have to be all-knowing in order to know that God exists and Baha'u'llah was His Messenger for this age.

I don't know many things, such as why God created this world the way He did. I can only surmise why certain things like diseases exist based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote regarding the purpose of this life.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
If life is not that important to the universe; which it isn't, then what in the universe is worth preserving? Perhaps God didn't plan things that carefully. Or he/she has an inordinate affection for wasted space and dead environments void of any meaning.

I guess the life of the universe is more important because without that, nothing at all can live.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And there is no "will." Science and psychology are abandoning that faster than a sinking ship. Especially free will. There are so many things about people that are predictable with trends that free will especially has been shredded. And when it comes to disabilities, set backs, and hardships, so much plays into how we handle that, cope, and move on that is beyond our control it's just silly to think it's easily within our grasp and can be as simple as a choice.
I do not care what science and psychology say because they did not create humans, God did. God gave us free will, but I am not saying that means we are free to do anything we might want to do.

I do not believe we are free to do anything we want to do, but I believe that we can make moral choices, for which we are responsible. Our choices are based upon our desires and preferences and our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the opportunity or there is something else we have to do instead or because we choose to sacrifice what we want for another person.

How free we are varies with each situation we find ourselves in. However, we have the ability to make our own choices unless we are incarcerated. Otherwise, we are looking at determinism, blaming all our actions on our past experiences and our heredity and having no moral responsibility for our actions.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I do not care what science and psychology say because they did not create humans, God did. God gave us free will, but I am not saying that means we are free to do anything we might want to do.

I do not believe we are free to do anything we want to do, but I believe that we can make moral choices, for which we are responsible. Our choices are based upon our desires and preferences and our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the opportunity or there is something else we have to do instead or because we choose to sacrifice what we want for another person.

How free we are varies with each situation we find ourselves in. However, we have the ability to make our own choices unless we are incarcerated. Otherwise, we are looking at determinism, blaming all our actions on our past experiences and our heredity and having no moral responsibility for our actions.
I'm not talking about things we want to do, but who we are as a person. Things that mold our personality entirely without our consent or will. Like schizophrenia. That is entirely outside of one's choice and does involve suffering. Science also makes a very good case we aren't deterministic, but there is no real control to be had if you believe your will is free. It's not. Our brains decide before we are even consciously aware of a decision that has been made. And these decisions heavily consider the past efforts of everyone and everything. If this didn't happen then things like operant and classical conditioning would be impossible. But people can be psychologically conditioned because our will is not free.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I have several questions:

1. Should God have created a world without suffering? If so, why? If not, why not?
...

By what the Bible tells, everything was good when God created it. That is why I think God created world without suffering. Suffering came after God was rejected.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm not talking about things we want to do, but who we are as a person. Things that mold our personality entirely without our consent or will. Like schizophrenia. That is entirely outside of one's choice and does involve suffering.
I can agree with that.
Science also makes a very good case we aren't deterministic, but there is no real control to be had if you believe your will is free. It's not. Our brains decide before we are even consciously aware of a decision that has been made. And these decisions heavily consider the past efforts of everyone and everything. If this didn't happen then things like operant and classical conditioning would be impossible. But people can be psychologically conditioned because our will is not free.
Of course our brains decide because that is where decision-making happens, through our brain and mind, but the causative factor is not a bunch of chemicals, there is more to it than that. Scientists have yet to discover how the mind works, much of that remains a mystery.

The fact that I am aware when I ma making a choice between doing one thing or another and I choose a instead of b is proof that I had a choice. I am also aware when I do not have a choice to do something I want to do because I cannot make myself do it.

Some people might be able to be psychologically conditioned to do something but if one is strong willed they might not be conditionable. All people are very different so I don't think all minds work the same way.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The point was a decision is made before we are consciously aware of it. It's very possibly we only have the illusion of choice.
And, again, there is no "will." Strong willed, weak willed, it's all rubbish. Everyone has been conditioned to a very great extent. Reflexes are conditioned. How we react to various foods is conditioned. How we think about ourselves is conditioned. How we talk is conditioned. Without this conditioning there is basically no society as there is no conformity and no empathy. But because we are group animals we are prone (and very highly so) to being influenced by others. The way we dress is conditioned, the way we drive is conditioned, tea or coffee is heavily conditioned, just as we must be conditioned to navigate the bombardment of signals and other means of communication to navigate our society and function within it. Like a stop sign. We don't know inherently or instinctively what any of that means. We don't recognize the shape, we don't associate red with anything (we may not even see a color as red), and we don't even know what is signified by the word "stop." But through conditioning we come to be able to automatically understand and interpret that sign with minimal effort and paying little attention to it. We are conditioned to reflexively know what it means.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
By what the Bible tells, everything was good when God created it. That is why I think God created world without suffering. Suffering came after God was rejected.
The suffering you refer to is a specific kind of suffering, spiritual suffering, i.e., the suffering of the soul that is distant from God because they rejected God, but people also suffer for many other reasons. Physical, mental and emotional diseases can cause suffering and people also suffer for economic reasons. In short, having a physical body and having to live in a physical world with all its challenges engenders suffering. By contrast, there will be no more suffering in the spiritual world (heaven) because there will be nothing physical there. The only suffering will be for those have rejected God, the suffering of the soul. That is what Jesus was referring to when He said we could lose our soul.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus shall gain eternal life. So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul because we lose eternal life. Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him and following in His way.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The point was a decision is made before we are consciously aware of it. It's very possibly we only have the illusion of choice.
And, again, there is no "will." Strong willed, weak willed, it's all rubbish. Everyone has been conditioned to a very great extent.
Sorry, I do not believe that because if we had no will of our own (never mind how free it is) we would all be robots. I do not believe we are robots operating on some kind of internal programming.

I think that way of thinking limits people in what they believe they are able to do. It also really gets people off the hook if they do not believe they can make any choices. Can you imagine if you committed a crime and told the judge, "sorry, I don't have free will so I had no choice but to murder my wife, so I am not responsible."
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
No, I do not have all the answers. I learn from everyone on this forum.
Experience and evidence has deemed this to be not true. In fact, quite the opposite; you ask us these questions, and then ignore everything we say to point us to your beliefs via the writings of Bahaullah.

I am going to ignore unsound arguments and call them out as I deem necessary.
Cool opinion, sorry it's wrong. You're ignoring arguments with evidence. And then referring us to your beliefs as your "evidence". That's not really how it works.

If people act like children I will point it out.
You mean if you think people are acting childish, you're going to call us children. Fine, but don't [REDACTED] and complain about people attacking you (especially when we're not) if you're going to call us children for disagreeing with you and your god.

If I see people comparing God to humans and expecting God to behave as a human would I will call them out for the fallacy of false equivalency.
Then as stated before in the other thread (and I'm assuming you haven't read it or just didn't pay attention), if your god cannot be held to any standard of Humanity, especially in regards of morality, then you cannot say that he is good, benevolent, loving, or whatever else adorations you shower upon his name. Those are human moral standards, and by your constant vain objection those can't apply to a god. So if we are guilty of false equivalence, so are you.

You cannot have it both ways.

That is your personal opinion--
No, that is what the word means. Frankly and bluntly, I don't care how one or two people on here have coped with their trauma and suffering and see the "Silver Linings" and the "benifit" to their suffering. It is a psychological and emotional fact that suffering is not good, as well as the physiological effects of suffering. The art is therapy. It does not mean that the suffering is good. And it is truly sad - truly - that you and others cannot see that.

That is your personal opinion--
Saying it twice doesn't make it so. Nor does it address at all that the Problem of Evil is a Monotheistic problem. Thank you again for showing us that you don't really read what we're writing.

Suffering is not an imperfection of the creation except in your personal opinion.
And what do you have to counter it with, blaze? Oh, that's right. OPINIONS. You also did not address what was said; either your god intended for this to be how it is, and he is not benevolent, or Creation got out of his control and he is not all-powerful. There is no other option. Well, there is one other, but that's out of the bounds of your claims.

That is your personal opinion--
Saying it thrice makes for rude redundancy.

No, that is a fact. That is what benevolence is. It is not beating someone but then giving them a gift.

God has the means and the ability to end suffering, but God does not end suffering
Then he is malevolent and vile. Thanks for clearing that up.

Almost forgot: As it was foretold, so it has come to pass. So sayeth the Prophet of Thor.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Experience and evidence has deemed this to be not true. In fact, quite the opposite; you ask us these questions, and then ignore everything we say to point us to your beliefs via the writings of Bahaullah.
I said: "No, I do not have all the answers. I learn from everyone on this forum."

That is true, I learn something from everyone, but I do not agree with everyone. Do you?
I have not ignored what you and F1fan say, I have read the same things over and over. Why should I read the same things over and over again? I will never agree with you two.
Cool opinion, sorry it's wrong. You're ignoring arguments with evidence. And then referring us to your beliefs as your "evidence". That's not really how it works.
You have no evidence that God is malevolent, all you have are personal opinions. That's not really how it works.
Then as stated before in the other thread (and I'm assuming you haven't read it or just didn't pay attention)
I have saved the Alert in my Word document with all the others I have not had time to answer yet, but I will skim over anything see like what is below. Cut/Paste, gone. It's so easy.
And what do you have to counter it with, blaze? Oh, that's right. OPINIONS.
No, I have beliefs.
Then he is malevolent and vile. Thanks for clearing that up.
Got any evidence of that? Otherwise it is just a personal opinion, a bald assertion.
P.S God not doing what you expect Him to do is not evidence that God is malevolent.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
That is true, I learn something from everyone,
And yet, you don't apply anything that you "learn". This isn't about agreeing and disagreeing, namely in that you immediately dismiss what we provide, and hide behind the writings of the Bahalluah.

I have not ignored what you and F1fan say,
You just got through telling me that you don't read everything I say because you're not interested in it; that is ignoring what we say, do not lie.

Why should I read the same things over and over again?
Because you fail to acknowledge them, while then applying the exact same sources to support your own. You reject fact in favor of your opinions.

You have no evidence that God is malevolent,
We have a lot of evidence, following your claims on god. Scriptural and tangible. The problem being here, blazer, is that you brazenly and blatantly ignore this evidence with one excuse or another. Either you don't believe it to be true, or "Look at this damaged person that makes art! Isn't it so pretty? God is good!"

No, I have beliefs.
Beliefs are opinions with a thin veneer of Religion and Spirituality. You have opinions.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Because they did not know right from wrong, and he showed it to them. And preemptively: even as he told them "don't touch this", they had no concept of right and wrong. Literally as telling an infant not to do something; they're going to.
Yes, in the Bible God did inform them as to what was right and what was wrong at Genesis 2:17
The right (or the good) was that they could live forever if they kept the law.
The wrong (or the bad) was that if they broke the law they would die, stop living (death was the evil).
They were created as Adults. No infant gets asked to think of names for the animals as mentioned at Genesis 2:19.
I find Eve had knowledge (education) because Eve told the serpent the right (the truth) at Genesis 3:2-3.
 
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