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Featured Should God have created a world without suffering?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jul 26, 2021.

  1. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I would be skeptical of a human being claiming to speak for the creator of the entire universe.

    Path for what? If the purpose of our existence is to know and love God (which is also an assumption), then it seems that suffering should not be required in order to fulfill that purpose.

    We don't know that God doesn't directly cause the suffering.

    You might say that human suffering is caused by other humans exercising their free will, but the problem with free will is that, by announcing His presence by sending messengers and issuing commands, God has already tainted the idea of free will. Consider how children have religious beliefs and dogma drilled and drummed into their head literally from birth. This affects the thought processes and can condition them towards learned behaviors, not free will.

    If God had just left us alone and let us do whatever we thought was best, then it would have been a true test of character and free will. By instilling the fear of God into people at an early age, it can be stressful and toxic, leading to the kinds of aberrant behaviors which can lead to even more suffering.

    "Free will" isn't really free if one is making choices under conditions of extreme duress and coercion. A contract signed under duress is not valid.

    "Let me tell you something about humans, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time, and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."

    Would you argue that people who turn from being wonderful and friendly into violent and bloodthirsty purely by their own choice? Does an otherwise sane and well-adjusted human being just wake up one morning and decide "Hey, I think I'm going to become a homicidal maniac"? There might very well be cases like that in history, but to say that it's merely a matter of humans exercising free will is such a gross oversimplification so as to become meaningless.

    If there is no God, then the whole discussion would be moot. But if one proposes the idea that some supremely powerful entity called "God" designed and built this place we're living in, it seems incongruous and counterintuitive to further assert that this Creator has nothing to do with what happens here or the processes which govern the life cycle of humans and other living things.

    Well, that's nice. Some religions might paint a more benevolent portrait of God. I agree that not all religions are the same in this regard, but the religions which have held most of the influence and political power over humans are the ones I would look at.

    I strongly disagree with your view that "we all suffer equally." Anyone with eyes and ears can clearly see that's not true at all.

    Religion wants people to be obedient. The word itself is derived from the Latin "religare," which means to bind or restrict. Religion wants people to be blindly obedient, following the dictates of the Church and their feudal lords without question. It's a political tool intended to induce conformity and compliance.

    You're correct in that human suffering has nothing to do with God, but by imposing religion on humans to bind and restrict them from thinking freely and exercising true free will, it has made it all the more difficult for humans to alleviate the sufferings of other humans. This is the real problem with God; not so much with God Himself, but many of the people who believe in God and religions which propagate such beliefs. They have been barriers to progress and only serve to perpetuate and increase human suffering.

    The only real progress we've made has been within the past few centuries, once we started becoming more secular and slowly removing the bonds and restrictions of religious dogma. Some religions have also become progressive, so I don't discount them or condemn all who follow a religion. But all in all, I think humans have outgrown God.

    As for the cause of suffering, I agree that there are many humans out there who are malignant and cause much needless suffering throughout the world. In fact, one can draw a common thread throughout all of known human history and see it as one long struggle to end human suffering, in one form or another. Technologically, scientifically, politically, socially, culturally - all because none of us want to suffer or endure hardship. We all need food, water, shelter, and some measure of security from predators - and other humans as well.

    One can see over the span of time how we've slowly improved our living conditions - built better shelters and enhanced our agricultural capabilities to be able to feed more people. This also meant people having to learn to fight and build better weapons, since being conquered by an enemy was another form of suffering humans wanted to avoid. Those who endure suffering at the hands of others might want revenge, and suddenly human "free will" shifts to an intentional desire to inflict suffering upon others.

    Even today, the US government looks at other nations, such as Russia, China, NK, Iran, and says "You cause suffering to other people. Therefore, we oppose you." We've even gone to war or threatened war because we've made it some kind of national crusade to end human suffering and the perpetrators of human suffering. Of course, that's where it's complicated, since we also cause a lot of suffering in the process of ending it.

    So, it seems that ending human suffering is probably far more difficult than it looks, and maybe humans are just too puny, powerless, and hapless to really do it on their own (due to limitations of our design). Either we have quite a bit more evolving to do, or perhaps we could use some help from...somewhere.
     
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  2. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    It does when you are THE creator of all things. AND have FULL awareness of all events and consequences.

    There's no one to blame if there is no God. Nature has no mind, no intentions, no blame.
     
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  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    1. God did create a world without suffering: aka Garden of Eden.
    2. God created Adam and Eve with human perfection ( aka sinless ).
    3. God could have created all without the gift of free-will choices. No one is forced to obey God.
    4. All the suffering is Not God's punishment - James 1:13-15; Luke 13:1-5; Ecclesiastes 9:11 B.
    5. Because of sinning we are Not shielded from suffering.

    The passing of time since Eden was needed in order for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
    Jesus' coming thousand-year reign over Earth will bring an end to suffering.
    Jesus will undo all the damage sinners Satan and Adam brought upon humanity.
    Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    According to the Bible, God did create a world without suffering - The Garden of Eden.
    Mankind was to expand that sample garden until it covered the whole Earth with its paradisical beauty.
    What God can't do is tell lies -> Titus 1:2; Numbers 23:19; Hebrews 6:18.
    God is also Creator (Revelation 4:11) and God is also Father.
    The word father means ' life giver ', and because 'God is love' then God wants to share His love by giving life.
    Man's disobeying God brought suffering into a world without suffering.
    Because we are innocent of what Satan and Adam did is why God sent Jesus to Earth for us.
    And we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us.
    To end ALL suffering on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 33:24 - No one will say, " I am sick....."
     
  5. AppieB

    AppieB Member

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    Did God create the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge that this would lead to the world we are in today? And could he not have created a world with a different outcome?
     
  6. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    If this god is all knowing, there's no way he could not have, having placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. What's more, no creature would have needed it, but humans. Punishment for such an obvious trap is morally reprehensible.
     
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  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    First, I think we should consider that before physical life God first created angelic life.
    Angelic Satan was created long before Adam and Eve.
    God is love so God did Not want angels to lead the World of Heaven (His home) going astray, going amok.
    God created the angels with free-will choice. God created angels with the option to love Him or not.
    Angels only knew angelic perfection with everlasting life in Heaven offered to them.
    Sinner Satan turned himself into a Rebel against God by his choosing wrong desires - James 1:13-15
    If God created everyone (angelic or earthly) with No choice then people and angels could say they had No choice.
    Rather, God did Not want to make or force any intelligent creation to obey Him except out of one's free-willed choices.
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Because God is (or can be) all knowing is why God chose to give His intelligent creation: choices.
    We (whether angelic or human) are created with the ability to freely choose.
    We can all choose to be responsible toward God if we want too.

    If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees on his property and told you that you can come over any time and have as much fruit as you want 'except' for one particular fruit tree, would you consider your generous neighbor as reprehensible ___________
    Out of ALL the trees on Earth only ONE tree belonged to God ( tree of knowledge of good and evil )
    By saying ' don't touch.... ' was as if God put up a No trespassing sign on His one-and-only tree on Earth.
    So, I wonder how just ONE tree out of all the trees on Earth could be considered an obvious trap.
    It was Not as if anyone was lacking food. ALL had access to the Tree of Life.
    For all we know there could very well have been other trees exactly like the tree of knowledge... but only ONE particular tree belonged to God.
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me the ' different outcome ' is the outcome for which we ask for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
    Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
    Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24
    People will be healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
    Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

    To me Adam and Eve could have easily asked God about what the 'serpent' (aka sinner Satan) was saying the things contrary to what they were taught by God.
     
  10. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Isn't that what most people believe heaven to be?

    It seems if you can rationalize no suffering in heaven, it could be rationalized for this life as well.
     
  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Finding a comment insulting to the entire human race is a pretty big responsibility.
     
  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Actually Buddhism does none of these things. It only provides an alternate to suffering.
     
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  13. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    If someone or something makes a flawed system, then yes.
    That's a very skewed view of things. And pretty weak and lame. Lots of us have hard lives, and crying ourselves to sleep isn't uncommon. Getting out of bed while it feels like an emotional anchor is weighing is down is something we do. We carry on in chronic pain every day, have been molded by abuse, and were dealt a life of turbulence.
    Free will doesn't exist.
    If you believe in free will you cannot be living as your true self as you are blind and ignorant to the many influences and factors that mold you without your consent, knowledge, or even wanting it. Just another puppet ignoring the strings to believe the body is being moved entirely of one's own will.[/QUOTE]
     
    #93 Shadow Wolf, Jul 27, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    It can still go along lines that diminishes and invalidates the suffering people go through.
    It's not a choice, it has nothing to do with attachments. When you have chronic pain, you are suffering with pain on a near daily daily basis. Your life may even be limited to what's going on. Like when I'm having a fibromyalgia flair up. It hurts, it aches, and it's hard to get anything done when I'm not even wearing my contact lenses because there's a high chance of spontaneous napping due to fatigue that just doesn't go away.
     
  15. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    And then punished us for it, or so the claim goes.

    A huge mistake, then, to include it in Creation as a source of temptation. It's like putting a screen door on a submarine.
     
  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Almost as big as dictating the human race choise to suffer.
     
  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    You failed to read my simple and clear post correctly

    And I see you still can't let go judging me and my feelings

    You even claim to know how I feel by telling my feeling is wrong and belittle me

    Have you ever done some introspection yourself to get rid of that demeaning behavior?
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I am wondering how just one tree out of all the trees on Earth could be a temptation _____________
    If you were in a HUGE warehouse chock full of candy and was told it was all yours except for just one particular piece of candy how could that be a temptation but rather just a selfish choice by one's own choice.
     
  19. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Yes that would have been awesome. Reason being that suffering in general is not very good :D

    No clue, Ill leave that to God to figure out :)

    Same as above.

    Since I answered that God should have made it without suffering. These questions becomes a bit redundant I guess.

    The only relevant question is (1), the rest of them assumes that things couldn't have been made differently. Could God have created us as ethereal beings where suffering was not an issue? I guess he could. :)

    Also God could have created us with a feeling or an actual purpose, where suffering wouldn't even be relevant.

    The question is why God chose a physical existence over anything else, assuming that he designed it and could have designed it whatever way he wanted. Often questions like these assumes a lot of things HAS to be a certain way, but I don't personally think those rules apply to God if he is said to have created all and exist outside time and space. Was God forced to create a big bang? If so why? I don't think he was :)
     
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  20. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    Because they did not know right from wrong, and he showed it to them. And preemptively: even as he told them "don't touch this", they had no concept of right and wrong. Literally as telling an infant not to do something; they're going to.
     
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