1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Should God have created a world without suffering?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jul 26, 2021.

  1. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,103
    Ratings:
    +3,246
    Religion:
    Heathenry
    Of course, but in context of my criticism of trailblazer, Theological beliefs are synonymous with religious or spiritual opinions. Specifically the second definition of "belief": something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,276
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    Satan was Not a Satan at the time God sent him to Earth. Notice how beautifully he is described at Ezekiel 28:13-17.
    What is ' fishy ' is that beautiful angelic cherub turned himself into being a Satan and a Devil a megalomaniac.
    Satan appointed position (to safeguard A&E) he allowed it to have undo importance.
    Satan developed the ambition 'to be worshipped instead of God' out of his own free will - James 1:13-15
    In other words, Satan wants us humans to worship him and to deny God's rule, God's Sovereignty.
    Satan set up Eve, but Adam deliberately ate the fruit Eve gave him.
    Kind of like Adam committed suicide rather than live without Eve.
    So, the issue started as to who can govern best____________
    Only the passing of time could answer that.
    The world today is under satanic influence - 2 Corinthians 4:4 - and time now shows his governing is Not good.
     
  3. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,672
    Ratings:
    +6,644
    Religion:
    Mystics
    On the other hand, why should God have created half a world (specifically, half of the world)? Why should there be no suffering? It's not a case that only some suffer. Everyone suffers, just as everyone experiences joy.

    Oh, you're talking about the Disney Princess God?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,276
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    Suffering to acquire spiritual qualities?, or rather suffering to answer the challenge found at Job 2:4-5 __________
    Satan Not only challenged Job with suffering but by way of extension challenges all of us.
    Touch our 'flesh....' (loose physical health) and we would Not worship God under adverse conditions.
    Both Job and Jesus under adverse suffering proved Satan a liar and so can we.
    So, the duress is coming from: Satan the Devil.

    Without suffering we can cultivate the spiritual qualities for a spiritual person as listed at Galatians 5:22-23; Galatians 5:16
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,276
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    Right, I find it is Not the case that only some suffer.
    Satan challenges all of us just as he challenged the righteous man Job - Job 2:4-5.
    Touch our 'flesh....' ( loose our physical health ) and we would Not serve God when suffering.
    While suffering both Job and Jesus proved Satan wrong and so can we.
     
  6. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    6,517
    Ratings:
    +340
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    Basic human parent advice for those of you who still love and honour human parent life. A baby is 100 per cent innocent.

    It trusts its parents. It believes what it is taught. It is protected by its parent from suffering. Live. Lovingly thought of.

    Holy spirituality practiced.

    Nothing to learn except survival.

    Then you have science. The destroyer liar coercer who says why God as a false father would hurt you to teach you.

    Already having been lost his owned father's human presence dna irradiated he pondered why natural God sources changed. Told a story he needed to learn God reacting is not a loving status.

    Still to this day ignores HIS OWNED life lesson as the false preacher.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,276
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    I like this definition of HOPE:
    H old
    O n
    P ain
    E nds
    Because we are nearing Jesus' coming Glory Time (Matthew 25:31-33,37) this means the Time for Jesus to act.
    We are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as found at Revelation 22:2.
    Come because then, No one will say, " I am sick..." as written at Isaiah 33:24.
    Come because people will be healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,672
    Ratings:
    +6,644
    Religion:
    Mystics
    I'm not prepared for a Biblical debate, but what does it mean that "Satan challenges all of us?" If it refers to suffering, then I agree that we all suffer. If it refers to Job's "challenges," than I would suggest that none of us are exempt from such physical challenges. Job didn't turn on God as Satan predicted, but he did turn on himself, which is worse (until God showed him the light).

    I don't know what connection you draw between Job and Jesus.
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    79,347
    Ratings:
    +33,416
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Most days.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,276
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    To me Christian meetings (for those of any age) are for learning aka survival classes - Hebrews 10:24-26
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,276
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    I find both Job and Jesus (through No fault of their own) suffered under adverse conditions affecting their health.
    While suffering both proved Satan a liar that under adverse conditions No one would remain faithful to God.
    God blessed the outcome of both repentant Job and faithful Jesus - Job 42:6; Job 42:12-16.
    True, Jesus was sinless and Job was Not but both under adverse conditions chose to worship God.
     
  12. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,672
    Ratings:
    +6,644
    Religion:
    Mystics
    I tend to think that those who have overcome a challenge have proven their integrity and courage rather than someone else's circumstance.

    Maybe I'm funny that way.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    30,679
    Ratings:
    +8,909
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    No, I am talking about the one true God.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    30,679
    Ratings:
    +8,909
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Through suffering, Job acquired spiritual qualities such as patience and perseverance didn't he?

    What did Job gain from his ordeal?

    Job emerged from his ordeal a better and wiser man who exhibited such patience amidst the upheaval of life. “Honest, good-hearted people who hear God's word, cling to it” (Luke 8:15, NLT). Patience is one of the many attributes of God and He wants to perfect this in His people.Jul 20, 2020

    God tested Job's faith and refined his character | Advice ...

    We can still cultivate spiritual qualities even without suffering, but we acquire more with suffering.

    “Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

    The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.” Paris Talks, p. 51
     
  15. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    6,517
    Ratings:
    +340
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    Survival. O planet remaining water sealed. Heavens not owning Christ gas spirit sacificed. Trees as wood not being carbon burnt bush alight stone law broken.....not oxygenating water and holy water diminishing.

    Warnings known. Occult nuclear dust science said man would return back to dust.

    Proven ice as waters cooling is melting.

    Ice the newly born newly formed win as end of every year for stable bio animal human birth.

    Science prediction 2012 end Gods human sacrifice.

    God by United verse universe with sun pulls creation into pressure colder deeper space. The womb birth. God would have stopped removing it's riches.

    UFO radiation.

    Earth heavens event anti Christ fallout gas burning irradiation would have stopped. By space inherited pressure in sun conditions light constant owner.

    Earth only owned cold clear immaculate heavens.

    Science prediction no science allowed book shut no false pulpit preacher self idolising. Human warning.

    Love honour natural human family group.

    Science using bible falsified space year as number 2012 in a thesis claimed God earth would naturally inherit cessation for a machine control prediction.

    Shut off turn on process.

    It was a natural earth outcome not a science formula prediction.

    Obviously the false preaching never allowed you to think for yourself.

    Once the church status brain mind conscious entrained healing. Body was rubbed in oils of healing. White medical robes donned.

    Sat in Phi resounding structure building involved in sound therapies meditating. Science ownership changed as a healing of mind body ritual three times daily.

    Reason for the church.
     
  16. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,672
    Ratings:
    +6,644
    Religion:
    Mystics
    Then there is suffering.
     
  17. AppieB

    AppieB Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    126
    Ratings:
    +102
    Religion:
    None
    Do you praise God? If so, why are you praising someone for something he is not responslible for?

    As a civil engineer I'm responsible for a good and save design of a road. This responsiblity makes me feel the importance of doing my job well, because safety matters. It matters what I do.
    Given your statement it seems to me that it doesn't matter to God what he does. Whether it's creating a world where 230.000 people were killed in the tsunami of 2004 (let's say for arguments sake this is the exact amount of people who were killed) instead of creating a world where 200.000 people were killed by the tsunami. The amount of suffering doesn't matter to God. Which goes against your earlier statements that God is good and that God acts with empathy.

    You could be all-knowing and still be immoral. The former doesn't exclude the latter. That is simple logic.

    What is the logic behind you asking the question: "Should God have created a world without suffering?", when you are simultaneously saying we cannot say that God should have created the world without suffering?
     
  18. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    23,376
    Ratings:
    +15,100
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    What is the meaning of the Latin 'religare'? - Quora

    I think there are different ways of looking at the word and its etymology. But setting that aside, in practice, religion is mainly about imposing a set of rules on people. My point was that, when people reject religion, they're not necessarily rejecting God, but they're rejecting the rules that humans would impose upon them. That was a relatively common view among people when I was growing up. People would say they still believed in God, but they didn't believe in religion - mainly because of the rules, restrictions, and other unreasonable qualities associated with it.

    I think the same goal could be accomplished by the principle of "Workers of the world - unite!"

    Yes, and it seems that there have been quite a few new religions and sects which have cropped up in the past couple of centuries. But all in all, religion has been one of the major impediments to revolution and social change. I realize the Baha'i faith is new and different from the older religions, but one can see a familiar pattern, especially as a religion gets larger, has more adherents, and becomes more powerful and influential. There's a point where the institution becomes more important than the actual beliefs. It seems to be a recurring theme throughout history.

    I see it more as an cautionary acknowledgement of human nature and how belief systems can be twisted and perverted for malignant purposes.

    I don't see that anyone is blaming God directly, especially those who don't even believe in God. I would see it more as blaming humans who contrive such ideas in the first place, along with those who continue to believe and propagate those ideas.

    Even if we accept the notion that God had nothing to do with what humans did in terms of causing suffering, one of the major problems with religion and its dictates is that it prohibits humans from actually doing something meaningful to stop suffering. Humans are told to turn the blind eye and stick their heads in the sand, while they have to patiently wait for God to get around to dispensing justice. They can't fight back. They can't resist. They can't revolt. They can't overthrow the ruling class that oppresses them and causes suffering - because that would be a sin.

    Secularist and atheist revolutionaries had a far better understanding of justice than any religion ever did. They knew what was necessary to alleviate human suffering, mainly by attacking and neutralizing those humans which were identified as the primary instigators and source of human suffering.

    All religion teaches is for people to get on their knees and pray. But you can't fight injustice on your knees. You can't end suffering by blind obedience to authority, no matter if it's religious or political authority. One has to question authority and sometimes defy it when necessary.

    Well, all of this sounds good in theory, but it looks like a plan to sit around and wait for God to actually do something.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,557
    Ratings:
    +2,822
    Religion:
    None
    So why are you so arrogant as to declare all of these definitive statements about Gods nature? There is a double standard (as I predicted) in that you're free to make definitive statements about the nature of God but the moment I question any of them, it's dismissed out of hand because "humans can't know God".

    What is it that determines Gods nature though? Why can't God choose to change his nature if he wanted to? What is it that prevents God from doing the things you've decided he is incapable of doing? Or to put it another way, what is more powerful than God?

    Scripture is written by humans. Their declarations about the nature of God in scripture is no different to your declarations about the nature of God here.

    There is the anthropomorphisation again. Making choices is a human thing and if anyone chooses to do (or not do) things, those choices can be assessed morally.

    For any truly omnipotent and omniscient being, the whole concept of "making a choice" would be irrational since that involves consideration of limited information over given period of time. For such a being, what they wanted to be would just be (and have always been). I don't think it is possible for human beings to relate to such a being in any way, positive or negative.

    I'm saying he could have done. You've now declared that we can't answer the question of what he should have done. :cool:

    How convenient. According to who? If I declare myself a god, benevolent by my nature, can my actions become immune to moral challenge too?

    Oh, I'm really not.

    Why do you assume what God does is about what is best for humans? Maybe we're just meaningless tools for whatever the real purpose is.

    That doesn't make them wrong though. We've agreed that we can't ask "should" questions of an omniscient and omnipotent being but that could just mean that God isn't actually omniscient and omnipotent or, of course, that God doesn't exist, disappearing in a puff of logic.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    11,389
    Ratings:
    +6,036
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Of course we can say that, if we assume a maximally benevolent God. We can safely say that those souls will have the same identical advantage of ll other souls. Why? Because if they did not, then wouldn’t God be maximally benevolent, since He would allow less bliss to souls that were there for reasons outside their control.

    That is the problem with the claim of maximal, or omnibenevolence. It is self contradicting for the garden variety God people believe in, since no matter what you postulate, you can always imagine a scenario with more benevolence. You guys re basically trying to cover a king size bed, with 4 square inch blanket.

    ergo, an omnibenevolent God can do only one thing: create all possible souls, and promote them directly to heaven, after having imbued them with any stuff needed to enjoy the eternal stay.

    of course, nobody sane believe in such a God, since that is obviously not the current state of affairs. Therefore, unless we let fall the claim of maximal benevolence, and stop trying to join a square connector into a round hole by making up indefensible rationalizations, we need to conclude that the God people believe in, simply does not exist.

    ciao

    - viole
     
    #220 viole, Jul 29, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
Loading...