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Should God allow babies to be born with serious deformities or diseases?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by retrorich, Sep 9, 2004.

  1. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    "But seriously, Parapraktri, what you're saying doesn't make any sense--do you really think that people who are born with deformities and diseases demanded this from God? I don't buy that, I think this is a clear case of blaming the victim. "

    they did not demand it. in thier previous lives they must have done something bad. and so it comes back to them. its why some people are born into wealthier families, or poor, healthy, or with deformities, with two parents and a loving family, or not. it all depends on what you do.

    the reason why you dont remeber is because the human head only holds limited amount of info. can you remember everything you did in this life? if you did, you have awesome memory. the soul has no body, therefore it has no limits.
     
  2. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

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    ^^^I disagree...

    It is taught that deeds in the *material* mode of goodness will lead to material goodness. To transcend karma means that you transcend the material modes, even goodness. Even the Bible says that good deeds alone will not attain one salvation. If one wants to completely transcend samsara they have to surrender to God. Performing good deeds as an offering to God is transcendental to simply acting out of the mode of goodness.
     
  3. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

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    I agree. And let me clarify that when I speak of it being our choice, I am talking about the initial reason we even take birth at all. In the middle of it all we may not choose to be put into these positions, but we are helplessly being tossed around by the waves of the material modes of nature. God created this world because the individual souls had desires to enjoy in different capacities separate from God. Now our desires are interacting and often clashing with the desires of other living entities. We created all this pain and suffering. Now, the remedy is to surrender to God because only in His Personal association are we truly happy. God is the reservoir of pleasure. Therefore how can we have pleasure if we choose to live apart from His presence?
     
  4. Mr Spinkles

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    Parapraktri-- I am being sincere, I completely surrender to God--I have no desire to rebel against a deity that is more powerful and knowing than I am. I can't prove to you that I am being sincere, but I know for a fact that I am being sincere, and I also know that I have not transcended karma yet. Do you sincerely desire to be one with God? If so, why have you not yet transcended karma?

    Gerani--
    How in the world did you come to this conclusion? Did God tell you this, or people claiming to speak for God? Or do you have a time machine? :)

    You guys saying that newborn babies all did bad things but they just can't remember it sounds a bit silly. You, Gerani, and you, Parapraktri, cannot remember ever "demanding" to be apart from God, or doing bad things in a previous life, right? Neither can I. And yet you are telling me that we all demanded to be apart from God, and we all did bad things in previous lives, though none of us can remember. This is a great example of the blind trying to lead the blind...something all religions have in common, I suppose.
     
  5. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    "How in the world did you come to this conclusion? Did God tell you this, or people claiming to speak for God? Or do you have a time machine? :)"

    its called faith. many things in religion and spirituality dont have proof that you skeptics desire. i have faith. karma makes a lot of sense to me how the world works and i believe it.
     
  6. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    "You guys saying that newborn babies all did bad things but they just can't remember it sounds a bit silly. You, Gerani, and you, Parapraktri, cannot remember ever "demanding" to be apart from God, or doing bad things in a previous life, right? Neither can I. And yet you are telling me that we all demanded to be apart from God, and we all did bad things in previous lives, though none of us can remember. This is a great example of the blind trying to lead the blind...something all religions have in common, I suppose."

    new born babies with deformities are souls who have done something bad in thier previous lives.

    why should we remember it? cuz then we will be only be doing good things to negate it and thats it. we would be sitting on our bums. if we didnt know, we would work harder to attain salvation, do good and end suffering.
     
  7. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    "Even the Bible says that good deeds alone will not attain one salvation. If one wants to completely transcend samsara they have to surrender to God. Performing good deeds as an offering to God is transcendental to simply acting out of the mode of goodness."

    eek sorry. i agree, but doing good deeds also releases you from suffering because you release others from suffering. karma, it comes back to you. rite? yes, there is a difference between material wealth and spiritual wealth. there is something called doing spirtual good deeds. though the path to salvation is the individual's adventure to travel. rite? dont forget, jesus did good deeds too. lol.
     
  8. Adrianay

    Adrianay New Member

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    Children yes are born with diseases and deformitys, they dont have to be. Does this proove that God is not all loving? It would to me, except for one thing. His word says that it is not his will for any to have disease. He wanted to redeem us fromb death and sin since humans fell. heres what the word says about babies with deformities.

    Isaiah 53: 4-5 Surely he has bourne our griefs and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed him stricken smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement (tourment) for our peace was upon him AND BY HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, everyone, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    By his stripes we are healed. Jesus was whipped on the whipping post, if youve watched the passwion ul know how grusome that was. It says in the word he dd that for our healing.

    Let me tell you something about the miracle power of jesusm on young babies.

    My friend is a midwife, a baby was given birth to but it got stuck, it took them a great deal of time to remove the baby and was one of the worst births at the hospital at recent times. The baby had stopped breathing for 4 hours, it was blue literally. They managed to get it breathing again (just) it was constantly fitting and doctors didnt think it would last a night. My friend texted a lot of us and we all were praying for that baby. It was healed in the name of jesus. Do you want to hear the amazing thing. The doctors said that it would have serious brain damage and if it survived it would not be able to function properly. They did a brain scan a few weeks later. A great deal of his brain was dead but his body and the baby was functioning properly and still is, that was 3 months ago. The doctors coldnt understand it, by the brain scan the baby shouldnt have been able o do what it was doing in front of them.

    Today I went for a walk and it was raining, I told the rain to stop and it did. Am I trying to bring |Glory to myself no, I want all glory to go to great name of JESUS! Amazing things happen with faith in the name of Jesus. That baby was healed, the rain stops, people are healed, set free, delivered, raised from the dead, given supernatural strength. Does God want your babys to be deformed no. Does he want you to believe in his name and claim healing yes. Disease is not from God, it is not of God and has no power over you if you believe in the Lord. If you want to know more about his healing power email me at [email protected]
     
  9. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    the rain stopped? ... why? i love rain. you should have sent some over to boston and NH.

    i never mess with the weather. i dont even pray for changes in the weather because you cant mess with what God does. if you mess with it, the some other areas of the world may have hurricanes (like florida!) and other areas may have drought.

    well if you can, send some rain to south india. theres a SEVERE drought and they are parched of thirst.

    did ur need for rain to stop as severe as this? were you drowning?
     
  10. Adrianay

    Adrianay New Member

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    I was soaked nd v cold nd I wanted to go to the beach to worship God. nd Gods got the weather controled. I didnt tell the clounds to go to far so u dont need to worry lol. Seriously though uv reminded me of an amazing thing. there was this place in uganda where one of my friends new some people and there was an awful drought. She went to her mother in laws house nd she did the washing for her nother in law. There were black clouds everywhere around. It was raining so heavy the rain was bouncing of the ground nd she stormed out in to the rain and pointed to the sky and said "you rain are not needed here we have pleanty of rain, there are people in uganda who need this rain and you will go to them now in Jesus name" (all the neighbours were looking out of the window thinking who is this mad woman) nd she said "I told you in the name of jesus to go, go". Heres the amazing part; you know when things are sped up on camera well the clouds looked like that, they roaled ove and it was a blue sky. a few hours later she got a phone call from her friends saying "youl never guess what! Its raining here in uganda!" and my friend said "I know!"

    I love the rain and the weather. you say you cant pray fro the rain to stop, elijah did! and another thing it was because I wanted to glorify God, it wasnt just a random thing and the rain, all of creation wants to worship God nd it stopped. Ill pray for south india tomorrow with some of my friends who trust in God. We were made in control of nature in Genisis and we are set free from the curse. Im not saying that everytime it rains Ill telll it to stop but if it gets in the way of me worshipping God I will. whats the weather like where you are? have u ever seen God doing the miraculous? do you want to?
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    If this story is true, why do we still have problems with drought in this world?

    Better yet, why does god need humble humans to tell him where rain is needed on his own earth? Can't he figure that one out on is own?
     
  12. Adrianay

    Adrianay New Member

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    Why do we have problems with drought, because we do not claim the promises of God and the devil comesto steal kill and destroy, he is defeated but still fighting. God calls us to do his work on this earth, he wants to do his work though us. Why does God need humans he doesnt, he chooses them. He knows where the rain is needed, so do we. Why dont we do anything about it> why do people turn on their tvs and say what a shame and then just sit back while millions die? Sin has concequences on this earth. This earth is God's but he gives us free will to choose and gives us the choice of what will become of ourselves, others and this world.
     
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  13. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

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    So you say. Still, it is not up to me. It is between you and God. Surrendering to God does not just mean saying that you do and then going off and acting materialisticly. It ultimately means renouncing worldly life. God does not expect people to just jump up and do this. There is a process. If you are sincere then I have faith that God will lead you through that process. But perhaps the key is that you should also have that faith. Right now you are seeing things with materialistic vision. When your vision has been cleansed you will see that you have in fact transcended karma.
    I may have not transcended karma for the same reason you have not. I am not a sannyasi (renunciant). I still engage somewhat in worldly activities. The idea is to engage oneself in God-conscious activities. That means that one gives up personal benefit and instead seeks to serve God. This is surrender. The first step is making the statement to surrender to God, but if that is all you do before going back to acting on a karmic level, then what value has it? What I am saying is, say what you mean. If you say you surrender then do it. If you are unsure as to what surrendering encompasses then I suggest you take a look at the Bhagavad-Gita, translations and purports by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada; particularly the original 1972 edition. Seriously, go to www.asitis.com
    As soon as I get an apartment set up I am going to purchase some books in bulk and I would be happy to send you one, free of charge. Until then you could readthe entire book online or you could purchase your own. It is a large book but not at all hard to follow. It is straight to the point philosophy, with exception of the first chapter.


    It is not my job to remember. Try to understand that it is either this, or we must subscribe to the 'poor me! I'm a victim' philosophy. A real theist does not accept any application of chance or randomness. You would lean more to say that a child is born deformed by chance. And this would negate the existence of God to you. But we say that a child is born such a way because of reason. A reason we simply have no perception of. That is our basis, reason. The soul is carried through the material world by the subtle body; mind, intelligence and false ego. These subtle conceptions of life carry the conditioned soul from one place to another just as the wind carries aromas. Factoring in this and the material modes of nature we can understand, generally, how such births are deformed. Specifically we cannot see what any particular living entity has done to deserve such a birth.
     
  14. Mr Spinkles

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    I already said I surrender to God. Why doesn't He tell me exactly what I need to do now to transcend karma? Or better yet, why doesn't He destroy my body so that I no longer have these evil materialistic desires?

    So God wants me to stop eating now? :confused: Tell me precisely how I need to live in order to transcend karma and get rid of evil and suffering. Also, please tell me why I should listen to you, and why God doesn't tell me how to transcend karma Himself.

    See, if I'm being sincere, I would expect God to take away all my materialistic desires right now, destroy my Earthly body right now, and bring me up to heaven to be at one with him and be free of evil and suffering--right now. What's the hold-up? You said that by allowing evil/suffering in the world, God only carries out our wishes, but now you're telling me I have to do favors for Him by not living "materialistically", and only then will He carry out my wishes to be at one with Him and no longer have evil and suffering. You say this philosophy is based on reasoning, but I find this extremely unreasonable.

    So you're philosophy is merely an imaginative attempt to make the best of a bad situation? Personally, I think it makes more sense simply to accept that genetic deformities are bad, it's not the babies' fault, it was caused by forces beyond our control and we just need to get by as best we can.

    Well, sort of--I would say a child is deformed by forces of nature beyond our (current) control, forces which, on the macro level at least, are not random but patterned.

    I think a child is born deformed for reasons as well...the reasons you speak of might be more easily acceptable before modern science, which can now tell us which genes caused the deformities etc.

    Gerani-- You say that you believe babies with deformities were born that way because they were bad in a previous life. I asked you how you know that, and you said you simply have faith in it. Now my question is, why do you have faith in the Hindu doctrine that deformed babies were bad in previous lives, and why do you not have faith in say, the Christian doctrine that deformed babies suffer for Adam and Eve's eating of the tree of knowledge? How did you decide which to have faith in, other than by mere whim?

    One more question for both of you: suppose women today are healthier than women in the Dark Ages, and as a result less newborns are born deformed, and infant mortality rate is much lower. Is this because Dark Age babies did more bad things in their previous lives? :rolleyes: Or is it because modern medicine, food, and sanitation is better?

    I suppose American babies were much better people in their previous lives than the babies of Somalia and other remote disease ridden areas...hey, why send medicine to those babies either, since we would only be interfering with God's punishment? :mad:
     
  15. thomasedison

    thomasedison Member

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    A lot of coincidences do happen. The rain and praying thing must have been a coincidence. Many people around the world pray for many things but most of them do not get it even if they completely believe in God. Consider the African tribals. They believe in God more than the civilized man. They are even willing to die for their faith in God. They pray to God to remove their troubles or to cure their diseases. Most of the time it does not work. So how can one logically claim that praying and surrrendering to God solves all problems? You can't say the tribals don't work because within the limits of their knowledge, they do. Keep in mind that during the years of the bubonic plague in Europe, the society was completely religious. They all prayed to God and they did what they could to remove bubonic plague. But the bubonic plague didn't go away. It went when the conditions promoting bubonic plague went -- I think about 40 to 50 years later. Likewise there are hundreds of thousands of patients dying of cancer every year. They have full faith in God and they do what they can but they still die. Even if seemingly miraculous things do happen with 1 % of the population, coincidences do happen and anyway, science is not complete.
     
  16. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    all very good questions. the soul in the body of the baby has commited sins in its previouslives. becuase of the divine laws of nature if karma, in its next life, it may be born with deformaties. if it did many bad things, it could have been born with other bad circumstances, like being born to a drug addict mother, a whore, a selfish pair of parents, etc., etc.

    i have faith in it because it makes sense why people are born into wealthier familes, some are born into poor families, some are born with several advantages or/and disadvantages. it depends upon how much negative karma one has built up against himself.



    you have to be intense in prayer like what other christians do. if you want to go to the buddhist way you have to search for the truth in the self...whatever that is.

    if you find it unreasonable, no wonder its not working for you. you cannot just look up into the sky and yell for everything to stop. you have to think and act good if you want suffering to pass. but your a skeptic in the process. what the hell?
     
  17. Hope

    Hope Princesinha

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    Thomasedison, with all due respect, I think this is a cop-out thing to say. If I attributed every answered prayer that I have had, and every answered prayer that others I know have had, to nothing more than coincidences, then there have been a tremendous amount of coincidences! :) Isn't the very nature of a coincidence to be unusual? If coincidences happen with a kind of regularity, then I think it would cease to be simply a coincidence, and therefore must be attributed to something else. If you want to explain every divinely answered prayer as nothing more than coincidence, then you have already made up your mind that God does not exist, and are not open to any other possibilities. Case closed.

    Of course God does not answer every prayer, that is true. But, then, God is not our 1-800-GIVEMEEVERYTHINGIWANT number! :D God is a Person, and will answer our prayers if He knows that it is for our ultimate good.

    I'm not trying to judge you, thomasedison. :) I simply think one should, in all fairness, at least keep one's mind open. If I am ever totally proved wrong about what I believe, so be it! I honestly don't think I will be, but I don't have blind faith either. Part of the reason I joined these forums was to be CHALLENGED in what I believe. To see other people's point of views, and to really think about why I believe what I believe.

    Peace to you........
     
  18. thomasedison

    thomasedison Member

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    I am sorry if I was bigot in that post. i will endeavour to be more open-minded in the future.
     
  19. Hope

    Hope Princesinha

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    I would never classify you as a 'bigot.' :) However, yes, being a little more open-minded is a good thing.... :)
     
  20. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

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    Because you haven't fully surrendered, apparently. If you really are sincere then you will keep at it instead of thinking, "ok, I surrender... now what? Oh, nothing has happened. Forget about it."


    Its funny what people assume. No, you mustn't cease eating. If you want the answers to these questions that pick up a Bhagavad-Gita. You can listen to me or not, that is your choice. I am not saying anything of myself. I am only pointing my finger, "over there. That's where you may find answers". God does tell you Himself but you have no eyes to see Him. The reason for this is because you originally wanted to be separate from God. And so God has covered Himself from you. Luckily for you, God has given various teachings in order for you to be able to see Him. You either accept or you don't. Either way, you are getting what you ask for.


    Two key words here: "sincere" and "surrender". How can you be sincerely surrendering if you are demanding that God take away all materialistic desires, destroy your material body and bring you up to heaven? This is your plague. You want to be in control. Seeking control is the very reason you are here. You are trying to be God yourself. In order for you to do this, God has to at least seem to be non-existent. Now here you are, getting what you asked for. It would appear that your desires now have changed little from the desires you had that initially caused you to fall into this world. God does not require favors from you. Why are you assuming that these things are favors for God? You require to do certain things because you are dirty and must be cleaned in order to transcend karma. God would clean you off but you keep putting more dirt on. This shows how you are not a fully surrendered soul. God cleans the dirt and then you turn around and put more on. Then you wonder why God has not liberated you. God is letting you keep your attachments to karma. At the same time He is presenting you with plenty of opportunities to learn how to transcend it. So you make the choice. God has no need to interfere with your desires, especially if they contradict each other time and time again.


    Call it what you want. Fine, its not the babies fault. "Damn those forces beyond our control. How come I am not God?"
    The fact that you seek control at all shows that you seek to be God. If you will not accept a reason behind why some take birth with deformities then what more can we reason? I am not advocating that because everything happens by reason that we should live and let live in complete disregard to such things. No, we are going to naturally try to help others. There is nothing wrong with that. In conclusion you and I are going to act no differently in this situation.


    Well, you are compassionate for the living entity on the one hand, but then you will deny it's spiritual existence on the other. What then becomes of the value of your compassion? For what exactly do you have this so-called compassion? Is it the left leg, or perhaps the torso? Please identify the object of your concern. If you truly are compassionate for the suffering of any life then try to understand the necessity for factoring the transcendental soul into the equation. When you have that understanding you will realize how these conditions are placed upon us according to this macro level of pattern. Not that we are products of these conditions, but that we are seemingly placed under them according to some design.


    And even if science is able to competely avoid birth defects, we still have so many other various problems. Can we possibly solve them all? Often times by trying to solve one another comes up. We're playing a game we can't win. The game is called, "Let's Try Being God".


    Modern medicine, food and sanitation may be better because the facility is given for us to make them better. Still, we cannot solve all problems.
    These babies in the dark ages are of course results of karma. The babies that are born in modern times are also a result of karma. The facility to make better medicine is karma. The situation of possibly being born into a family that cannot afford good health care is also due to karma.


    Who is advocating this? We can help others.

    You are also not factoring in so many things. We are simply looking at one feature. A child may be born deformed but then becomes a great spiritual leader who teaches people to love God and love one another. While another child may be born to a healthy American family and grow up to be a selfish backstabber. I would say that generally the facility of good health gives one a better opportunity for spiritual life, but it is not always gauranteed.
    Don't think of it as "God's punishment". Think of it as our desires gone wrong. It isn't that we desired specifically to suffer, but that our desires were so perverted that we have fallen into suffering. The bottom line of this perversion is in our desire to be separate from God. We are constitutionally part and parcel of God. Therefore all desires that stay in line with our constitutional position will be perfect. Otherwise, all desires that seek to be apart from our constitutional position will result in a perverse reflection of what we really want. Initially we wanted to be our own God. The Supreme Lord has granted and is continually granting this to us. He has His agent called Maya. Maya is the illusory material energy. Your perverted desires are fulfilled by Maya. When you come back to God your desires will be pure and maya wont be able to touch you. Its all up to you.
     
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