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Should displaying Confederate symbols be illegal in the United States?

Should displaying Confederate symbols be illegal in the United States?

  • Yes, we should have a universal ban on display of Confederate symbols.

    Votes: 3 5.2%
  • Only government-sponsored displays should be banned.

    Votes: 10 17.2%
  • No. The U.S. Constitution guarantees expression of unpopular and even odious ideas.

    Votes: 39 67.2%
  • No. We should be proud of symbols of Confederacy

    Votes: 6 10.3%

  • Total voters
    58

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
jamaesi said:
Because homosexuals used to enslave heterosexuals and steal them from their homes and rip their families apart and beat and degrade and torture and rape and murder them on a mass scale, right? Right?
Ok, how about you just take a powder and think about what the question was before you mount that horse. That question was asked because someone was asked whether they cared that something they personally may or may not be doing - with no malicious intent on their part - might upset some people who decide to take it personally.
If people have to be stopped doing things on the basis that they may offend other people then that means everything. Don't you make the mistake of thinking that some people - deluded as they may be - don't find the idea of same sex marriage very threatening. It threatens them based on what they believe it represents, not based on what your intent is. The Confederate Flag falls in the same boat. To say it represents nothing more than slavery is like saying that the Eureka flag represents nothing more than a bunch of scum who didn't want to obey the law.
And while we're on it, I expect you'll be telling me next that every slave that was ever owned in the North - hypothetically of course, because the North were the saviour of the oppressed and obviously never would have condoned having people as property - was treated with the utmost respect and due care, never beaten, never poorly treated, never seperated from their families.
Are we so deluded to think that had the North had a reliance on slave labour they would have demanded immediate emancipation as opposed to a steady withdrawal?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
CaptainXeroid said:
The Civil War ended in 1865. That's 140 years ago! In Georgia, I see plenty of people who are still fighting it, and it makes me sad that they don't see hope in the future and feel a need to live in the past.
Hi, CX.

Why do you think this is? I've never even visited the South (well, except for Florida), but I've heard other people say this. I don't get it. What is it you think they want?

Kathryn
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
A symbol of hatred would be the KKK's white hood or flaming cross, or the Nazi swastika. These groups make it a goal to eliminate other groups.
The confederate flag represents the confederate states. It represents what the south believed in, and that they wanted it enough to fight and die defending it. The Southern states believed that states should be able to rule themselves, and succedded from the Union. This move angered the Union, and Lincoln decided to abuse his power, take away many rights, all to make sure thier economy, that heavily relied on southern imports, would not be hurt to bad.
Economically speaking, the Union depended on slavery for survival. The South grew the raw material the North needed for its goods production. Greed fueled the North to declare war on a freedom loving confederation.
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Luke Wolf said:
A symbol of hatred would be the KKK's white hood or flaming cross, or the Nazi swastika.
Actually , the Broken Cross has a long history and is only a symbol of Hate when associated with the Nazis . It is still used as a religious symbol in India today .
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Hi, CX.

Why do you think this is? I've never even visited the South (well, except for Florida), but I've heard other people say this. I don't get it. What is it you think they want?

Kathryn

Liberty. Independence. Not so hard to imagine is it?

Luke Wolf said:
Greed fueled the North to declare war on a freedom loving confederation.

Yep. Nothing much as changed has it?
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Natas said:
Diversity was looked upon a little different in those days.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, 16th. President of the United States, edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.
have i ever in this thread claimed that the north fought this war for abolitionist purposes?

Jocose said:
"I am with the South in life or in death, in victory or defeat. I never owned a negro and care nothing for them, but these people have been my friends and have stood up to me on all occasions. In addition to this, I believe the North is about to wage a brutal and unholy war on a people who have done them no wrong, in violation of the Constitution and the fundamental principles of the government...We propose no invasion of the North, no attack on them, and only ask to be let alone." - Patrick R. Cleburne May 1861
because Gen. Cleburne shows his apathy for the subject, IMPO, doesn't take away from the statement made by a Government's second in command at the birth of the CSA.

but then maybe statements made by world and national leaders hold less impotance when it comes to policy than the soldier with no political power or influence.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
kreeden said:
I am assuming here that you are refering to the flag of the Southern States that was used during the Civil war?
Among other symbols, including elaborate statues honoring those who supported slavery. I wasn't referring to only the flag, I love how everyone just jumped on that. :rolleyes:

kreeden said:
Or do you prepose to ban any display of the Canadian flag also?
If you had read further, you would have seen that I said I DID NOT support a ban on the Confederate flag, as that would violate free speech. But I do find symbols of hate disturbing, which I do consider those symbols, despite those who would rather gloss over that part of its history.
Luke Wolf said:
A symbol of hatred would be the KKK's white hood or flaming cross, or the Nazi swastika.
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. It meant life and good luck. It didn't start out as being a symbol of evil, hatred, racial bigotry, and murder either, but meanings change....... Do you associate the swastika with life and good luck? No, fair or not, it is associated with Hitler and the Nazis. Just like the Confederate flag is forever going to be assoicated with the fight to keep slavery in the United States, like it or not.
Luke Wolf said:
It (the Confederate flag) represents what the south believed in

They believed it was OK to own and enslave another human being. I am sorry, but I see no good in that. And it really disturbs me that people do still today find a society like that worth honoring.
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
Maize said:

They believed it was OK to own and enslave another human being. I am sorry, but I see no good in that. And it really disturbs me that people do still today find a society like that worth honoring.

Yeah, look. You are missing the point on purpose. We've already done an excellent job of showing that this IS NOT what the south is honoring when it honors the flag. If you have any actual historical or academic evidence to support your claims, then we should have a debate, but don't just sit there are continue to push your revisionist history. It's unsettling.

"In addition to this, I believe the North is about to wage a brutal and unholy war on a people who have done them no wrong, in violation of the Constitution and the fundamental principles of the government...We propose no invasion of the North, no attack on them, and only ask to be let alone." - Patrick R. Cleburne May 1861

The North, out of greed, waged a brutal and unholy war on the South and now, as winners of the war, they have rewritten history to make themselves look righteous for their crimes.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Jocose said:
Yeah, look. You are missing the point on purpose. We've already done an excellent job of showing that this IS NOT what the south is honoring when it honors the flag. If you have any actual historical or academic evidence to support your claims, then we should have a debate, but don't just sit there are continue to push your revisionist history. It's unsettling.

Who's revising history here, saying that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and that those who fought for the South didn't support slavery? Next you'll be telling me that slavery in the United States didn't happen at all.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
I don't understand how you can just forget and gloss over the fact that slavery was a part of that society. :confused:
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
Maize said:

They believed it was OK to own and enslave another human being. I am sorry, but I see no good in that. And it really disturbs me that people do still today find a society like that worth honoring.
Um, at the risk of being picky, that mindset wasn't some bizarre fairyland inhabited only by people who lived in the Confederacy, nor, I think you'll find, a truth that all inhabitants if said Confederacy held to be self evident.
Today, racism and bigotry is not something limited to people who are overt about it, nor does flying a flag, wearing a badge, or saying,'Well, that IS a mighty fine statue of Robert E. Lee there, isn't it?' mean you advocate fixing a man of African descent to the towbar of your ute and taking him for a drag down the road.
If it did, then 'The Dukes of Hazard' is a great big symbol of racial oppression and the support of slavery.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I am afraid I am rather extreme in my view of these things; and I am surprized by the amount of 'freedom of expression' most members seem to take as being necessary.


Maybe it is because I was Belgian for a while - and proud of it, and then was forced to Become British for my job - which I think was unnecessarily harsh - but, I had to go along with it. Perhaps there is also a much deeper sense of culture and History here in England (Although, having said that, we are all 'mongrels' to some degree:D !)

I view National symbols as just that - the symbol of the country - deface the Queens head on a coin, and it is a 'treasonable offence' - I see that as being perfectly normal - as I would be furious at seeing a Union Jack set fire to (Which has unfortunately been happening in Iraq) - burn the flag means, to me, burn the nation. Maybe i'm in the minority, but that's where I am.:)
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
Maize said:

Who's revising history here, saying that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and that those who fought for the South didn't support slavery? Next you'll be telling me that slavery in the United States didn't happen at all.

Yeah. Have you even read any of the posts in this thread? We have already shown the role slavery played in the civil war; and the war was neither in support of, nor an aggression against slavery. That simply was not the case and you have no evidence to the contrary. We have given evidence for our position and yet, you have none.

Maize said:
I don't understand how you can just forget and gloss over the fact that slavery was a part of that society. :confused:

Yeah. ummm No one has done this. The only person ignoring history is you. We've continually stated that slavery was wrong. No one is trying to defend slavery.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Jocose said:
Yeah. Have you even read any of the posts in this thread? We have already shown the role slavery played in the civil war; and the war was neither in support of, nor an aggression against slavery. That simply was not the case and you have no evidence to the contrary. We have given evidence for our position and yet, you have none.
I am saddened to read that. I like to think it was about slavery.:(
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
CaptainXeroid said:
...The Civil War ended in 1865. That's 140 years ago! In Georgia, I see plenty of people who are still fighting it, and it makes me sad that they don't see hope in the future and feel a need to live in the past...
Katzpur said:
Hi, CX.
Why do you think this is? I've never even visited the South (well, except for Florida), but I've heard other people say this. I don't get it. What is it you think they want?
Kathryn
I think they are romanticizing a rebellious spirit. No matter what people think about Confederate symbols and the South in general, the Confederate soldiers were hopelessly outnumbered, outgunned, and underequipped; yet they fought bravely for 4 years until the American army's superiority carried the day.

I am sure that some of the people waving Rebel flags want to return to the days of slavery when everybody knew his 'place' and 'role' in society. I think most of them want to believe they would stand up to authority and fight for what they believe in regardless of what other people think.

As I read through this thread with different peoples' perspectives on the US Civil War, I am reminded of the time-honored axiom that tells us:
HIstory is written by the victors.
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
michel said:
I am saddened to read that. I like to think it was about slavery.:(

Why? The civil war was about one group of people forcing their greed and desire for power on another group of people. Lincoln wanted more power for a single federal government, which would prevent some states from making harsh economic demands on other states. Back then, most of our trading was done with each other. The north was fighting a war to secure political and economic power. The South fought in defense of its' liberty and independance.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Jocose said:
Yeah. Have you even read any of the posts in this thread? We have already shown the role slavery played in the civil war; and the war was neither in support of, nor an aggression against slavery. That simply was not the case and you have no evidence to the contrary. We have given evidence for our position and yet, you have none.

I never said it wasn't partly about states rights and other issues, but it was also about slavery, an evil institution, and nothing in my mind was more important than ridding our "land of the free" where "all men were created equal" of that evil. Anything else was secondary and trivial in the larger picture. Glossing over the issue of slavery does not serve those who died to get rid of it, or those who died at the hands of it.
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
Maize said:
I never said it wasn't partly about states rights and other issues, but it was also about slavery, an evil institution, and nothing in my mind was important that ridding our "land of the free" where "all men were created equal" of that evil. Anything else was secondary and trivial in the larger picture. Glossing over the issue of slavery does not serve those who died to get rid of it, or those who died at the hands of it.

But the North wasn't fighting to get rid of slavery.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, 16th. President of the United States, edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

"If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side." --Ulysses S. Grant

"The Southern Confederacy will not employ our ships or buy our goods. What is our shipping without it? Literally nothing....It is very clear that the South gains by this process, and we lose. No---we MUST NOT "let the South go." "----Union Democrat , Manchester, NH, February 19, 1861
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Jocose said:
The North, out of greed, waged a brutal and unholy war on the South and now, as winners of the war, they have rewritten history to make themselves look righteous for their crimes.
that's bunk
Until you get into higher scholastic works most historical text, especially the public school history text books, did not even talk about the institution of slavery until well into the civil rights movement...
if you look at primary documentation that has been buried until recent decades you find slavery to be central issue of seccession, not the war, just seceding from the Union

lets look at another conferdate politician

as he left the senate and declared that he was going to follow his fellow Mississippians into secession this Senator pointed out only one issue when it came to the discussion of greivances with the government of the United States: Slavery





It has been a conviction of pressing necessity, it has been a belief that we are to be deprived in the Union of the rights which our fathers bequeathed to us, which has brought Mississippi into her present decision. She has heard proclaimed the theory that all men are created free and equal, and this made the basis of an attack upon her social institutions; and the sacred Declaration of Independence has been invoked to maintain the position of the equality of the races. That Declaration of Independence is to be construed by the circumstances and purposes for which it was made. The communities were declaring their independence; the people of those communities were asserting that no man was born - to use the language of Mr. Jefferson - booted and spurred to ride over the rest of mankind; that men were created equal - meaning the men of the political community; that there was no divine right to rule; that no man inherited the right to govern; that there were no classes by which power and place descended to families, but that all stations were equally within the grasp of each member of the body politic. These were the great principles they announced; these were the end to which their enunciation was directed. They have no reference to the slave; else, how happened it that among the items of arraignment made against George III was that he endeavored to do just what the North had been endeavoring of late to do - to stir up insurrection among our slaves? Had the declaration announced that the negroes were free and equal, how was the prince to be arraigned for stirring up insurrection among them? And how was this to be enumerated among the high crimes which caused the colonies to sever their connection with the mother country? When our Constitution was formed, the same idea was rendered more palpable, for there we find provision made for the very class of persons as property; they were not put upon the footing of equality with white men - not even upon that of paupers and convicts; but, so far as representation was concerned, were discriminated against as a lower caste, only to be represented in the numerical proportion of three-fifths. Then, Senators, we recur to the compact which binds us together; we recur to the principles upon which our government was founded; and when you deny them, and when you deny to us the right to withdraw from a government which, thus perverted, threatens to be destructive of our rights, we but tread in the path of our fathers when we proclaim our independence, and take the hazard.

-Jefferson Davis, Speech before the Senate on withdrawal from the Union 1861
http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/greatmen/davis/pres-ad3.htm
 
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