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Should Christians Be Keeping the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rainbow Mage, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    As a bit of self-serving apologetics penned by a supporter of Paul in the latter half of the first century of the common era. To quote Udo Schnelle in The History and Theology of The New Testament Writings:



    Whether or not Christians choose to consider it authoritative is entirely up to them.
     
  2. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    I’m really interested on how you did that. Can you please tell me more about it. Thanks
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I'm sorry … how I did what? … quote scholarship?
     
  4. Yes

    Yes Oh how I love the Word of God!

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    There is no bitter pill. Please, let me show you. Do not believe in me, believe in what the scriptures say.

    I tell you, you are missing out. Please, do not harden yourself to what I am saying.
    God does NOT choose us anymore according to whom we are blood related.
    John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
    Did you read that?
    Did you understand that?
    Do you know that ‘human decent’ is about blood relations?
    God chose the Israelites, the Israelites who were BLOOD related to Abraham.

    Deuteronomy 7:8But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Deuteronomy 4:37
    Because he loved your ancestors and chose their descendants after them, he brought you out of Egypt by his Presence and his great strength, Deuteronomy 9:5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Micah 7:20You will be faithful to Jacob, and show love to Abraham, as you pledged on oath to our ancestors in days long ago. The ANCESTORS of the Israelites are ABRAHAM, ISAAC, and JACOB.
    God does NOT choose us anymore according to whom we are blood related.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Preachy pulp --> ignore list.
     
  6. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    I have Jewish ancestry. I am not a practicing Jew, my mother was an atheist in my early childhood, so I had no religion at all until I was nearly 18. I call myself a "Follower/Disciple of Yeshua" to acknowledge that fact. I have thought about becoming a practicing Jew. I love the religion but I also believe in Jesus, so the way it goes. If I were to decide to abandon Yeshua, then..., who knows?
     
  7. Yes

    Yes Oh how I love the Word of God!

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    I hope that you are not ignoring me. Why would you do that? I beg you to discuss with me.
     
  8. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    If you would click that arrow up then you would find out where you are.
     
  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I'm sorry, JM2C, I really do not understand your question.
     
  10. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    You said I was quote-mining Paul
    and from what I understand “Quote mining is the deceitful tactic of taking quotes out of context in order to make them seemingly agree with the quote miner's viewpoint or to make the comments of an opponent seem more extreme or hold positions they don't in order to make their positions easier to refute or demonize. It's a way of lying” -wiki.

    So I asked you if you can explain this verse instead

    Eph 2:14 “For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,”

    But gave me this excuse instead
    You know If I was to accuse someone of quote-mining I’ll make sure that I have a back-up plan or a better answer other than referencing from some misunderstood literature.
     
  11. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    this is for James2ko
     
  12. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    Let’s jump to the NT where it specifically says.

    Ro 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Now, if we go the OT we can read goy, plural goyim, nation, people sometimes referring to the nation of Israel but that doesn’t mean they, the Israelites, were part of the Gentile nations.

    IOW, In the NT is says explicitly who the Gentiles are and they are not the Jews.
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    You asked me how I explained the verse. I answered, apparently not to your liking. There was no 'excuse' involved.
     
  14. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I understood it perfectly. Now lets read it in context:

    Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John [the Baptist].​

    Joh 1:11-13 he came to what was his own, yet his own folk did not welcome him. 12 On those [Israelites] who have accepted him, however, he has conferred the right of being children of God, that is, on those who believe in his Name, 13 who owe this birth of theirs to God, not to human blood, nor to any impulse of the flesh or of man.​

    The apostle John is making a comparison between Christ, who was born from above, and John the Baptist (vs 6), who was born from human flesh and blood. God made the New Covenant exclusively with the house of Judah and house of Israel (Heb 8:8-10). New Covenant Israelites will also get an opportunity to be born from above (upon repentance and baptism), which is not attributed to any human but to God Himself. Before you accuse anyone of hardening themselves, please consider the scriptures in context.

    That’s correct. And I cannot find any contextual reference that states any peoples other than Jacob's descendants that are offered salvation in this age.
     
  15. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    As God was opening my heart to accept Him, I always wondered why I was so attracted to Jewish customs. To make a long story short, I discovered my name was of Sephardic origin. Sephardic is a general term referring to the descendants of Spanish and Portuguese Jews who lived or live in the Iberian Peninsula. This prompted me to move forward and spend the $200 for a DNA test (from FamilyTreeDNA--YDNA37) which has an option to test specifically for Jewish genes.

    Depending on your goal, you can spend more and dig deeper into your ancestry. All I wanted to know if I had any Jewish ancestry. It provided the information I needed. My curiosity was aroused and I did a name check on at least 10 individuals in my congregation and they were all of Israelite origin. I decided to pay for a DNA on a negroid individual in my congregation, his also came back positive for Israelite ancestry.

    This led me to a multi-year re-examination of everything I believed about Christianity and prompted the writing of a study I am working on titled, "The Mystery of Jacob's Lost Descendants."
     
    #155 james2ko, Dec 29, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
  16. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. Let the bible identify the ancestry of Paul's mostly 'gentile' Roman congregation:

    Rom 4:1 But if so, what can we say about Abraham, our forefather by natural descent?

    Rom 4:16 That is why all turns upon faith; it is to make the promise a matter of favour, to make it secure for all the offspring, not simply for those who are adherents of the Law but also for those who share the faith of Abraham — of Abraham who is the father of us all
    These passages, especially vs 1, eliminates any argument of a "spiritual Israel". Although there is now a spiritual element to NT Israel, it is only made with the physical descendants of Jacob, as the scriptures proclaim.

    I can even prove with a degree of certainty from historical and biblical evidence, Cornelius, the first "gentile" convert, was also a physical descendant of Jacob.
    2. The term “Greek” in vs 28 is “hellene-G1672”. It is translated “gentiles” in other passages. But its more accurate definition is someone who speaks Greek. Strong’s extends the definition to a non-Israelite, which is partially correct, but it can also apply to a Greek speaking Israelite.

    It is common knowledge most Jews (house of Judah) residing in areas outside of Judah, i.e.., Galatia, etc., were “hellenes”. Not because they 'were' of Greek descent, but because they 'spoke' Greek. This does not make the Jews in Galatia non-Israelite. The language one speaks or place of residence does not necessarily dictate their ancestral origin. Notice:

    Joh 7:35 Then the Jews said among themselves, "Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?​

    Who are these Greek speakers that the Jews are claiming are dispersed among the Greek speakers? It certainly doesn't make much sense for Jesus to go to the dispersion among the Greek speakers to teach the Greek speakers. This connotes the "dispersion" is identifying a particular dispersed group among the Greek speakers. So who is this group dispersed among the Greek speakers in Galatia?

    1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    You read in the last point how the house of Israel (10 tribes) were dispersed throughout the gentiles, who by this time, were in Galatia speaking Greek. Peter was not only sent to the Jews but also the Israelites of the house of Israel. 1Pe 4:3 also provides evidence Peter’s audience in his first epistle were not exclusively Jewish:

    It is quite enough to have done as pagans choose to do, during the time gone by! You used to lead lives of sensuality, lust, carousing, revelry, dissipation and illicit idolatry, (Moffatt)

    Peter refers to the fact that some of his Greek speaking congregation from
    Galatia once lived as idolaters. Jewish congregants would not have led a life of idolatry, but the Greek speaking dispersed descendants of Jacob who lost their identity would have!!

    3. But it does mean they can also be referred to as ‘gentiles’:

    “And the LORD said unto her, two nations [Hebrew “goyim” = GENTILES] [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen 25:23 AV)​

    Notice how both Jacob and Esau are called 'goyim, elsewhere translated ‘gentiles’. This means Israelites as well as non-Israelites can be considered gentiles [nations] in the OT. Context would have to be considered to properly identify the intended group. There lies the confusion. The confusion spills over into the NT:

    4. But they can be, depending on the context:

    Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation [ethnos] G1484 and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?"​

    Here we have Pilate replying to Christ. In this case, the term “ethnos”-- translated many times as “gentiles” elsewhere in the New Testament-- were not Greeks or Romans but the Jews from the two tribes of the house of Judah! The translators realized this and inserted the term “nation”.

    The translators inserted their misconceptions on who they thought the Jews were by inserting “gentiles” for “ethnos”, when they “perceived” the context was referring to non-Jews, and “nation” was inserted when they “thought” it was speaking of Jews.

    Not realizing the gentiles in the NT were mostly dispersed members from the 10 tribes (aka Ephraim) of the house of Israel whom God had also made recipients of the covenant (Heb 8:8-10), but were scattered among the ‘gentiles’[ethnos] (see verses in the last part of point 2 here) and had actually become unwitting ‘gentiles’ just like I was! This has led to a grave misidentification of New Covenant Christians.
     
    #156 james2ko, Dec 29, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
  17. Yes

    Yes Oh how I love the Word of God!

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    What don't you get about it not being about human decent?

    I hope you study harder, because you do not have the truth.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Do you mean grafted onto Israel?
     
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  19. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Study harder? 2-4 hrs a day is not hard enough.:). You have yet to address any of the passages I posted confirming my interpretation. How can you expect me to just accept your incontextual interpretation of one passage as truth?
     
  20. Yes

    Yes Oh how I love the Word of God!

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    Those who have faith and obedience to Christ ARE Israel. It does not matter about blood. It only matters about Jesus' blood.

    The first book in the Bible tells us who and what Israel is. See Genesis 32:28.

    Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”

    Did you see that? The one who struggles with God and with men and overcomes…
    And Jesus in the last book of the Bible confirms this message. See these scriptures in Revelation. Read what Jesus says about overcoming.

    Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

    Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

    Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

    Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations–

    Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

    Revelation 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

    Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

    And there is only one way a person can overcome this world, and that is through Jesus Christ our Savior.

    1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Therefore, who and what is Israel---Israel is people who overcome by faith in Jesus Christ.
     
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