POST ONE OF FIVE
[FONT="]1) ErikErik[/FONT] [FONT="] states in post #95 that : “You are in agreement with the Jehovah's Witnesses in blaming the nicene fathers for concocting the Trinity. Therefore, it makes your entire premise false. A faulty foundation leads to more falsehood.“[/FONT]
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Your base premise on this point is incorrect (I will try to explain some principles regarding the genesis of the Nicene theory later). However, I do agree that an incorrect base premise creates errors in subsequent conclusions. [/FONT]
[FONT="]2) ErikErik stated in post #95 “Judeo-christianity is just another name for Judaism.” And “There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian as the two religions are diametrically opposed.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]These are silly and historically, illogical, and erroneous statements. The earliest Christians were Jewish. Jesus, was Jewish. The apostles were Jewish AND they were Christians.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Judeo-Christian texts”, in this context, are texts used by Jews and Christians. The “old testament” is JEWISH in origin yet it is held sacred and used by CHRISTIANS as well as Jews. It is a “judeo-christian” text. “Judeo-Christian doctrines” are, similarly, doctrines believed by both Jews and Christians. Both religions believed in the 10 commandments; both believed in prophetic revelation; both believed in redemption through a messiah, etc. Early Jewish Literature existed BEFORE the New Testament, thus we find the 12 apostles; apostolic Fathers and others quoting from Jewish literature. When you are reading Christian New Testament, you ARE reading some quotes from Jewish literature as well. You just didn’t have enough historical acumen to realize it. This is a good example of an incorrect premise causing illogical and erroneous conclusions.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3) ErikErik said in post #95 : “I can give quotes from the PRE nicene fathers about subjects such as the Trinity and Jesus being God, but that would be a waste of time. “[/FONT]
[FONT="]I have already demonstrated that the Earliest Judeo-Christians described, in their own words, according to their own interpretations, that they believe in a trinity of three unequal individuals.
ErikErik, If you actually have ANY DATA originating from the earliest Judeo-Christian texts that describe their interpretation showing otherwise, I would appreciate being able to see it and examine it.
While the earliest texts from the prophetic era clearly described a trinity as unequal individuals, often non historians try to offer data from the later era of the theologians to “demonstrate” earlier beliefs in a poor attempt at a historical “bait and switch”. Please ErikErik, if you have appropriate data, I’d like to see it. However, If you simply want to engage in a historical “bait and switch” that I described, that will simply leave a bad taste in everyones’ mouth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
4) ErikErik stated in post # 95 “You do not say if you are a Christian, but by your unqualified statements, attempts at intellectualism and not going to the Holy Bible as your source, one can deduce that you are not. Therefore, you and I will remain diametrically opposed.“[/FONT]
[FONT="]This is yet another example where your erroneous base premise is causing you to come to erroneous conclusions.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Firstly, there is nothing wrong with christians being educated and intellectually aware of historical data. Your situation of not being burdened with facts has NOT worked to your advantage.
I certainly am a Christian and honor and worship Jesus and look to him alone for redemption. If it comes down to comparing "the size of our premises", I believe I will have generated and written much more data in forum and text as to why Jesus is worthy of honor than you have.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5) ErikErik said in post # 95 “I have used the Holy Scriptures to back up my statements. You have not done so.“[/FONT]
[FONT="]
ErikErik, this is yet another incorrect premise causing you to make incorrect conclusions. I am not sure why you make this incorrect claim. I DID refer to scriptural texts in demonstrating the early worldview regarding the original early Judeo-Christian trinity as individuals where Jesus was NOT an equal, but he was a divine servant of the Lord God, his father and where the Holy Ghost also, was NOT equal to the Lord God, but served in a subservient capacity as they all three were united to accomplish the Lord Gods Plan.
I will re-post a portion of my original data and will highlight biblical texts in GREEN. Look for the green and you will see references to scriptures.[/FONT]
[FONT="]THE FOLLOWING ARE EXERPTS FROM POSTS #78-82 – REFERENCES TO THEIR SCRIPTURES ARE IN GREEN[/FONT]
[FONT="]Clear said : [/FONT]
[FONT="]Historically, the best way to determine what the ancient Judao-Christians believed is to study their own descriptions of what they said they believed.[/FONT] [FONT="] Early Judao-christians left us a great deal of sacred and profane texts, diaries, mishnas, hymns, etc. that describe the early Christian trinity as three separate individuals rather than as all being the same individual AND importantly, there are profound reasons, why Jesus is worthy of any superlative honor we offer to him.
My examples of the early Judeo-christians and their references and descriptions of God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as individuals follow in posts 2 through five) For examples :[/FONT]
[FONT="]
IN EARLY JUDAO-CHRISTIAN JESUS WAS SEPARATE FROM THE FATHER AND JESUS WAS WORTHY OF HONOR ("WORSHIP")
The discourse on abbaton (Archbishop Timothy - jerusalem) has the resurrected Jesus teaching the apostles concerning the pre-eden time period when the LORD GOD had formed Adams body from clay but had not yet put Adams' spirit into the body. Jesus described "And He [the LORD God, his Father] took the clay from the hand of the angel, and made Adam according to Our image and likeness, and He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And he heaved sighs over him daily, saying, "If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains."
The discomforting difficulty referred to the Fathers knowledge that Adam and many of his children would fall from moral purity and much evil and much suffering would occur as the Fathers plan of mankinds’ mortality and the moral education is carried out.
There had to be a way to morally purify the repentant among mankind and bring them back into a primordial moral state in order to allow adam (and the rest of us) BACK into a morally pure heaven. Without that mechanism, the spirits of mankind that were sent to earth to gain a moral education to prepare them to live in a morally perfect heaven could never return to a “primal” moral state of moral cleanliness and thus enter a morally clean heaven. A redeemer was necessary.
IN THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN WORLDVIEW - JESUS VOLUNTEERED TO SACRIFICE AND REDEEM MANKIND IN SUPPORT OF THE FATHERS PLAN – (thus he was immensely worthy of honor and respect)
Speaking of this time period, the prophet Enoch spoke of this controversy tells us both of the angels who voiced reservation to this plan and God's plan to redeem mankind. Which was accomplished by Jesus’ voluntary resolution of the controversy by his volunteering to be a redeemer. Enoch described this event : “They [the angels] said before the Holy One, blessed be he, 'Lord of the Universe, did not the primeval ones give you good advice when they said, Do not create man!' The Holy One, blessed be he, replied, 'I have made and will sustain him; I will carry and deliver him.' (3rd Enoch 4:6-7)
Jesus, in reference to this event, Jesus describes volunteering to be a redeemer for mankind, relating his discussion with God the Father, saying : " I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him." And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state." And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfill Thy command."(abbaton)
POST TWO OF FIVE FOLLOWS
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[FONT="]1) ErikErik[/FONT] [FONT="] states in post #95 that : “You are in agreement with the Jehovah's Witnesses in blaming the nicene fathers for concocting the Trinity. Therefore, it makes your entire premise false. A faulty foundation leads to more falsehood.“[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Your base premise on this point is incorrect (I will try to explain some principles regarding the genesis of the Nicene theory later). However, I do agree that an incorrect base premise creates errors in subsequent conclusions. [/FONT]
[FONT="]2) ErikErik stated in post #95 “Judeo-christianity is just another name for Judaism.” And “There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian as the two religions are diametrically opposed.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]These are silly and historically, illogical, and erroneous statements. The earliest Christians were Jewish. Jesus, was Jewish. The apostles were Jewish AND they were Christians.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Judeo-Christian texts”, in this context, are texts used by Jews and Christians. The “old testament” is JEWISH in origin yet it is held sacred and used by CHRISTIANS as well as Jews. It is a “judeo-christian” text. “Judeo-Christian doctrines” are, similarly, doctrines believed by both Jews and Christians. Both religions believed in the 10 commandments; both believed in prophetic revelation; both believed in redemption through a messiah, etc. Early Jewish Literature existed BEFORE the New Testament, thus we find the 12 apostles; apostolic Fathers and others quoting from Jewish literature. When you are reading Christian New Testament, you ARE reading some quotes from Jewish literature as well. You just didn’t have enough historical acumen to realize it. This is a good example of an incorrect premise causing illogical and erroneous conclusions.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3) ErikErik said in post #95 : “I can give quotes from the PRE nicene fathers about subjects such as the Trinity and Jesus being God, but that would be a waste of time. “[/FONT]
[FONT="]I have already demonstrated that the Earliest Judeo-Christians described, in their own words, according to their own interpretations, that they believe in a trinity of three unequal individuals.
ErikErik, If you actually have ANY DATA originating from the earliest Judeo-Christian texts that describe their interpretation showing otherwise, I would appreciate being able to see it and examine it.
While the earliest texts from the prophetic era clearly described a trinity as unequal individuals, often non historians try to offer data from the later era of the theologians to “demonstrate” earlier beliefs in a poor attempt at a historical “bait and switch”. Please ErikErik, if you have appropriate data, I’d like to see it. However, If you simply want to engage in a historical “bait and switch” that I described, that will simply leave a bad taste in everyones’ mouth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
4) ErikErik stated in post # 95 “You do not say if you are a Christian, but by your unqualified statements, attempts at intellectualism and not going to the Holy Bible as your source, one can deduce that you are not. Therefore, you and I will remain diametrically opposed.“[/FONT]
[FONT="]This is yet another example where your erroneous base premise is causing you to come to erroneous conclusions.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Firstly, there is nothing wrong with christians being educated and intellectually aware of historical data. Your situation of not being burdened with facts has NOT worked to your advantage.
I certainly am a Christian and honor and worship Jesus and look to him alone for redemption. If it comes down to comparing "the size of our premises", I believe I will have generated and written much more data in forum and text as to why Jesus is worthy of honor than you have.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5) ErikErik said in post # 95 “I have used the Holy Scriptures to back up my statements. You have not done so.“[/FONT]
[FONT="]
ErikErik, this is yet another incorrect premise causing you to make incorrect conclusions. I am not sure why you make this incorrect claim. I DID refer to scriptural texts in demonstrating the early worldview regarding the original early Judeo-Christian trinity as individuals where Jesus was NOT an equal, but he was a divine servant of the Lord God, his father and where the Holy Ghost also, was NOT equal to the Lord God, but served in a subservient capacity as they all three were united to accomplish the Lord Gods Plan.
I will re-post a portion of my original data and will highlight biblical texts in GREEN. Look for the green and you will see references to scriptures.[/FONT]
[FONT="]THE FOLLOWING ARE EXERPTS FROM POSTS #78-82 – REFERENCES TO THEIR SCRIPTURES ARE IN GREEN[/FONT]
[FONT="]Clear said : [/FONT]
[FONT="]Historically, the best way to determine what the ancient Judao-Christians believed is to study their own descriptions of what they said they believed.[/FONT] [FONT="] Early Judao-christians left us a great deal of sacred and profane texts, diaries, mishnas, hymns, etc. that describe the early Christian trinity as three separate individuals rather than as all being the same individual AND importantly, there are profound reasons, why Jesus is worthy of any superlative honor we offer to him.
My examples of the early Judeo-christians and their references and descriptions of God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as individuals follow in posts 2 through five) For examples :[/FONT]
[FONT="]
IN EARLY JUDAO-CHRISTIAN JESUS WAS SEPARATE FROM THE FATHER AND JESUS WAS WORTHY OF HONOR ("WORSHIP")
The discourse on abbaton (Archbishop Timothy - jerusalem) has the resurrected Jesus teaching the apostles concerning the pre-eden time period when the LORD GOD had formed Adams body from clay but had not yet put Adams' spirit into the body. Jesus described "And He [the LORD God, his Father] took the clay from the hand of the angel, and made Adam according to Our image and likeness, and He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And he heaved sighs over him daily, saying, "If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains."
The discomforting difficulty referred to the Fathers knowledge that Adam and many of his children would fall from moral purity and much evil and much suffering would occur as the Fathers plan of mankinds’ mortality and the moral education is carried out.
There had to be a way to morally purify the repentant among mankind and bring them back into a primordial moral state in order to allow adam (and the rest of us) BACK into a morally pure heaven. Without that mechanism, the spirits of mankind that were sent to earth to gain a moral education to prepare them to live in a morally perfect heaven could never return to a “primal” moral state of moral cleanliness and thus enter a morally clean heaven. A redeemer was necessary.
IN THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN WORLDVIEW - JESUS VOLUNTEERED TO SACRIFICE AND REDEEM MANKIND IN SUPPORT OF THE FATHERS PLAN – (thus he was immensely worthy of honor and respect)
Speaking of this time period, the prophet Enoch spoke of this controversy tells us both of the angels who voiced reservation to this plan and God's plan to redeem mankind. Which was accomplished by Jesus’ voluntary resolution of the controversy by his volunteering to be a redeemer. Enoch described this event : “They [the angels] said before the Holy One, blessed be he, 'Lord of the Universe, did not the primeval ones give you good advice when they said, Do not create man!' The Holy One, blessed be he, replied, 'I have made and will sustain him; I will carry and deliver him.' (3rd Enoch 4:6-7)
Jesus, in reference to this event, Jesus describes volunteering to be a redeemer for mankind, relating his discussion with God the Father, saying : " I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him." And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state." And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfill Thy command."(abbaton)
POST TWO OF FIVE FOLLOWS
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