Should a woman have to see a sonogram before receiving an abortion?

[yossarian22]

One: If it not a child then the pictures of a aborted fetus sure look like a murdered child, and not just a cluster of non human-life. And you have no way of knowing if it is or not. Your going by your own assumption. If its not a baby then shes not pregnant is she? Simply coming out of a womb doesn't make a person a person. Being in a womb doesn't change the substance of what that child is. Funny because in court if a person hits a pregnant mother in the stomach and the baby dies, then that person is seen as guilty of murder, but when its done by a doctor, its seen as not murder. LOL! Illogical!
That is fine. So be it. Hitler didn't think he was wrong for killing the Jews and catholics the way he did. We can try to justify any unmoral murder/killing by simply beating around the bush and denying the obvious.

I'll agree with how illogical our court system is, but did you just place abortion in the same category as the Holocaust?

 

[athanasius]

I'll agree with how illogical our court system is, but did you just place abortion in the same category as the Holocaust?

Yes I did and so did Pope John Paul II. Abortion is the baby holocausts of today!

 

[yossarian22]

Yes I did and so did Pope John Paul II. Abortion is the baby holocausts of today!

Thats a bit extreme isn't it?
There is a HUGE difference between an abortion and designing the economy and infrastructure of an industrialized country around the slaughtering of an ethnic group.

People today throw the word Holocaust around to describe anything now.

 

[athanasius]

Thats a bit extreme isn't it?
There is a HUGE difference between an abortion and designing the economy and infrastructure of an industrialized country around the slaughtering of an ethnic group.

People today throw the word Holocaust around to describe anything now.

To us Catholics it isn't. The holocaust was mass murdering of a innocent group of people. Innocent life taken. Abortion with a average of 4000 kids a day aborted, roughly 44 million since the legality began, actually murders much more innocent life than the holocaust. We stopped Hitler, we haven't stopped the legality of abortion yet. The war to save innocent human life goes on. Let us pray.

 

[doppelganger]

We stopped Hitler, we haven't stopped the legality of abortion yet. The war to save innocent human life goes on. Let us pray.

What percentage of abortions are caused by the "legality of abortion"? I.e. By what percentage would abortions decline if illegal?

 

[yossarian22]

To us Catholics it isn't. The holocaust was mass murdering of a innocent group of people. Innocent life taken. Abortion with a average of 4000 kids a day aborted, roughly 44 million since the legality began, actually murders much more innocent life than the holocaust. We stopped Hitler, we haven't stopped the legality of abortion yet. The war to save innocent human life goes on. Let us pray.

The Holocaust was not just a "mass murder" of innocent people.
Masses of innocent people are killed each day. Big whoop. The Holocaust is unique because an industrialized country designed its infrastructure specifically for the extermination of an ethnic group. This has only happened once in history. Stop throwing around the word holocaust so casually.
Also, a fetus is a blob of cells, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[athanasius]

What percentage of abortions are caused by the "legality of abortion"? I.e. By what percentage would abortions decline if illegal?

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Off the top of my head not sure but I bet we can find out if we look into it. If Murder was made legal do you think there would be a rise in murders? I do! A drastic one because I could tell you there would be several people on here I would then get rid of.LOL! Just kidding! Thank God for My catholic morals!

 

[athanasius]

The Holocaust was not just a "mass murder" of innocent people.
Masses of innocent people are killed each day. Big whoop. The Holocaust is unique because an industrialized country designed its infrastructure specifically for the extermination of an ethnic group. This has only happened once in history. Stop throwing around the word holocaust so casually.
Also, a fetus is a blob of cells, nothing more, nothing less.

Your reading to much into this. All the Pope and Myself are saying is that they are alike in the fact that both of them produce Msss killing of the innocent. Thats it. You have no way of knowing for sure if a fetus is more than a blob of cells. Pictures shows otherwise better to play it safe.

 

[doppelganger]

]}

Off the top of my head not sure but I bet we can find out if we look into it.

See what you can find, because that is the assumption underlying your argument.

While you're at it, check out what other things, beside the "legality" issue, could be done to reduce and eliminate abortions. Any ideas?

 

[yossarian22]

Your reading to much into this. All the Pope and Myself are saying is that they are alike in the fact that both of them produce Msss killing of the innocent. Thats it.

A holocaust is not just a mass killing. All you are trying to do is provoke an emotional response by using it.
Also, its doubtful if a fetus could even be considered alive.

 

[athanasius]

See what you can find, because that is the assumption underlying your argument.

While you're at it, check out what other things, beside the "legality" issue, could be done to reduce and eliminate abortions. Any ideas?

Good point! I'll look into it.

 

[athanasius]

A holocaust is not just a mass killing. All you are trying to do is provoke an emotional response by using it.
Also, its doubtful if a fetus could even be considered alive.

ever see a picture of a aborted fetus? You have no way of knowing if its alive or not. Medically, It has heartbeat, and is a living growing multicellular organism with a human DNA code. Other wise known as a human being. But lets say you maybe right for argumentation sake .If you didn't know for sure then why take ridiculous chances on it being one and murdering it? Many Many doctors and scientist have said that it is a living human being. There have been books on this. So if the medical world is divided then why risk a life at all? That's not logical.

 

[yossarian22]

ever see a picture of a aborted fetus? You have no way of knowing if its alive or not. Medically, It has heartbeat, and is a living growing multicellular organism with a human DNA code. Other wise known as a human being.

You refer to what is an almost a fully developed fetus. Before it has a heart etc etc. It is just a blob of cells. If you consider that a person, then there is a holocaust every day on your skin.

But lets say you maybe right for argumentation sake .If you didn't know for sure then why take ridiculous chances on it being one and murdering it? Many Many doctors and scientist have said that it is a living human being. There have been books on this. So if the medical world is divided then why risk a life at all? That's not logical.

Many doctors have said that it is not. It depends on how you define life.
I do not consider just having a heartbeat to be alive. Consciousness means life, otherwise you are just a breathing vegetable.
But I do not have an opinion on the abortion debate, as there is no middle ground. I just point out how convoluted the law about an unborn child is and run.

 

[McBell]

One: If it not a child then the pictures of a aborted fetus sure look like a murdered child, and not just a cluster of non human-life. And you have no way of knowing if it is or not. Your going by your own assumption. If its not a baby then shes not pregnant is she? Simply coming out of a womb doesn't make a person a person. Being in a womb doesn't change the substance of what that child is. Funny because in court if a person hits a pregnant mother in the stomach and the baby dies, then that person is seen as guilty of murder, but when its done by a doctor, its seen as not murder. LOL! Illogical!

As I already said, it is not a child until after birth.
If you do not like that fact, go talk to the medical community.

two: If you do not want to call it murder then fine. Its the grotesque and vile killing of a unborn human life. I guess legality really makes this difference huh? So if it became legal tomorrow to murder you because I simply want to then I guess I wouldn't be murdering you? Was Hilters killing of the Jews Murder?

Yes legality really does.
Murder is an unlawful killing.
Since abortion is a lawful killing, it is not murder.
What does hitler have to do with it?
Is this yet another appeal to emotion?

three: You are human and emotion is part of your human response to actions. We are not just robots or vulcans. However logically the argument does not make sense either as I have shown above in my other post.

all you have shown in your other post is that you cannot offer anything but the mis usage of words to to present appeals to emotion.

four: Your just grapsing at straws really because you do not want to admit to yourself that you are wrong. That is fine. So be it. Hitler didn't think he was wrong for killing the Jews and catholics the way he did. We can try to justify any unmoral murder/killing by simply beating around the bush and denying the obvious. Abortion was illegal back in the fifties and sixties. So I guess by your definition it was murder back then but now is not. Gotta love that logic!

I was not the one who set the definition for the word "murder."
You are the one misusing the word in order to illicit an emotional reaction.
I am not grasping at straws.
I am revealing facts to you that you obviously do not like.
So you go right ahead and continue to knowing misuse the word murder, it only shows your willingness to be dishonest about the whole ordeal.

 

[athanasius]

As I already said, it is not a child until after birth.
If you do not like that fact, go talk to the medical community..

So the medical community defines for us what a human being is? That is kinda scary. I would much rather place my trust Christ church which to Catholics has the revealed teachings of God himself. Many Doctors in the medical field also say that the fetus is a baby and this is murder. But Mestemia believe what you will. My prayers are with you.

Via Con Dias,
Athanasius

 

[athanasius]

You refer to what is an almost a fully developed fetus. Before it has a heart etc etc. It is just a blob of cells. If you consider that a person, then there is a holocaust every day on your skin..

The blobs on your skin do not have a human dna code and do not have the potential for becoming a "full grown" child if given time to do so..

 

[yossarian22]

The blobs on your skin do not have a human dna code and do not have the potential for becoming a "full grown" child if given time to do so..

Fine. If you are talking about cells with potential then drinking alcohol is mass murder.
You have stem cells in your liver.
And ever cell in the human body has the entire genetic code of the body stored in it.

 

[McBell]

So the medical community defines for us what a human being is? That is kinda scary. I would much rather place my trust Christ church which to Catholics has the revealed teachings of God himself. Many Doctors in the medical field also say that the fetus is a baby and this is murder. But Mestemia believe what you will. My prayers are with you.

nice try.
The fact is that the medical community never denies that an unborn is human.
What else would it be?
It is a living human sperm that joined with a living human egg.

Your problem is that you are misusing the terminology.
Be it out of honest ignorance or out right dishonesty, only you know.

Check out the medical records for a pregnant women and see what term they use for the fetus.
You will see that doctors use the terms embryo or fetus, depending upon the stage of development, until after it is born,
AFTER BIRTH the medical records will use the terms infant, child, baby.

 

[athanasius]

Fine. If you are talking about cells with potential then drinking alcohol is mass murder.
You have stem cells in your liver.
And ever cell in the human body has the entire genetic code of the body stored in it.

"And God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct"


I see I shall not throw pearls before swine anymore....

Via Con dias

 

[athanasius]

nice try.
The fact is that the medical community never denies that an unborn is human.
What else would it be?
It is a living human sperm that joined with a living human egg.

Your problem is that you are misusing the terminology.
Be it out of honest ignorance or out right dishonesty, only you know.

Check out the medical records for a pregnant women and see what term they use for the fetus.
You will see that doctors use the terms embryo or fetus, depending upon the stage of development, until after it is born,
AFTER BIRTH the medical records will use the terms infant, child, baby.

call it what you will its still a human life.